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Thread: Virgin America causing turbulence in airline industry

  1. #1
    Senior Member Ari707's Avatar
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    Virgin America causing turbulence in airline industry

    NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Start-up U.S. air carrier Virgin America Inc. has not flown a plane or even gotten a license to operate, but it is already creating turbulence in the U.S. airline industry.

    Incumbent carriers, led by Continental Airlines Inc., have lobbied hard to keep Virgin America from getting off the ground.

    Those efforts, which have slowed Virgin America's efforts to gain U.S. government approval to start flying, show how intense competition is in the U.S. airline industry and how fragile its recent recovery may be.

    "For the first time in six years roughly, the airlines are starting to experience some profitability, and the last thing that the domestic carriers want to see is new competition," said Dan Petree, dean of the college of business at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University.

    Virgin America has until Wednesday to respond to industry objections to its application for an airline license, which was initially filed last December. The U.S. Department of Transportation then has up to 180 days to make a decision on whether to allow the airline to operate.

    Continental and others have attacked Virgin America's links to British-based Virgin Group, which holds a 25 percent stake in the company, lends the airline its brand and has promised to provide financing.

    The airlines say that Richard Branson's Virgin Group, which has stakes in airlines in Europe, Australia and Nigeria, effectively controls the U.S. airline in violation of U.S. law, which restricts foreign control of domestic airlines.

    "We have absolutely no opposition to start-up discount airlines," said Continental spokesman Dave Messing. "Our only concern is that, since we abide by U.S. laws, our competitors also abide by U.S. laws."

    Virgin America says it's controlled by U.S. citizens and conforms with U.S. law. It says rival airlines are using the foreign control argument to limit competition.

    U.S. law prohibits a foreign equity stake in a U.S. airline of more than 25 percent, ostensibly for the sake of national security.

    A new JetBlue?
    Six years ago, JetBlue Airways Corp. breezed through the approval process without the big airlines putting up much of a fuss, but that was before the September 11, 2001 attacks pushed the airline industry into a recession that led to billions of dollars in losses. And JetBlue's rapid growth, despite the industry's malaise, showed that new competitors needed to be taken seriously.

    Virgin America plans to enter the market armed with $177 million in start-up capital, with the majority coming from private equity investors Black Canyon Capital and Cyrus Capital Partners. This funding represents the largest seed capital of any start-up U.S. airline, surpassing the $130 million initially raised by JetBlue.

    "About three-quarters of capacity is dominated by incumbents who have a cost structure that is 25 to 50 percent higher than new-generation companies," said Fred Reid, chief executive of Virgin America and a former president and chief operating officer at Delta Air Lines Inc.. "It's a massive business opportunity."

    But it will take the airline time to build up momentum. "In the first 24 to 36 months, I don't think they will be large enough to make much of a measurable impact," said Tim Sieber, general manager of airline consultancy The Boyd Group.

    Virgin America, which says it could start flying within weeks of receiving its license, plans to position itself as a low-cost, high-perks airline. It says it will have in-flight entertainment features that go beyond JetBlue's satellite television offering.

    Virgin America has 33 Airbus planes on order, but plans to start operation with just two to four aircraft. Reid says that the airline has the ability to grow its fleet at a rate of one to two planes a month indefinitely.

    The airline intends to first fly between San Francisco and New York. Brian Clark, Virgin America's vice president of planning and sales, says the airline is aiming for 20 routes in two years.

    Good news for other airlines is that Virgin America has profits, rather than growth, as its top priority, which means starting a ticket price war is not its most likely strategy.

    "Our goal is to be financially successful," says Reid. "I don't care if I'm a mega-airline or a boutique airline."
    Overheard on JFK TOWER - S Turns are fine, U-Turns are bad....

  2. #2
    Senior Member RDU-JFK's Avatar
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    The big airlines need to stop crying. Competition is competition. Virgin America won't get away with not abiding by US law, and the airlines should know that. The airlines are just pissed off about more competition. I've been anti-LCC for so long trying to hold onto the old school legacies but after experiencing their product and their price differences, I say screw the legacies and Go Virgin America!

    BTW I refuse to concede that US Airways is a LCC with their prices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDU-JFK
    The big airlines need to stop crying. Competition is competition. Virgin America won't get away with not abiding by US law, and the airlines should know that. The airlines are just pissed off about more competition. I've been anti-LCC for so long trying to hold onto the old school legacies but after experiencing their product and their price differences, I say screw the legacies and Go Virgin America!

    BTW I refuse to concede that US Airways is a LCC with their prices.
    Just to clarify, LCC doesn't mean low prices to the consumer. That is the biggest misconception in the industry. LCC refers to the airline's operating costs being lower then the legacies. The LCCs lower operating cost allowed them to offer lower prices at first but in the last few years most legacies have adjusted their cost structure to compete effectively with the "LCCs."

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    Senior Member Tom_Turner's Avatar
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    [quote=T-Bird76]

    Quote Originally Posted by "RDU-JFK":97d10
    adjusted their cost structure
    [/quote:97d10]

    Great euphemism
    "Keep 'em Flying"

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    [quote=Tom_Turner][quote="T-Bird76":84a9f]

    Quote Originally Posted by "RDU-JFK":84a9f
    adjusted their cost structure
    Great euphemism[/quote:84a9f][/quote:84a9f]

    Well its better then saying, fired 1000's, dumped pensions, slashed benefits, contracted out work, cut passenger perks, and overall said FU to their employees and customers, LOLOL :D Trying to be politically correct here Tom....hehe

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    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    I'm excited about watching a business model like Virgin America startup and see how they expand.

    I feel like the US can't handle anymore airlines, as it already seems oversaturated and that airlines need to die instead of new ones being born.

    But I can see a New York to SFO route doing well for them. In fact, in time, maybe these guys can be the last LCC force to finally drive out a legacy carrier or two that have been aching to die out (*cough* United *cough*).

    Im surprised that Continental is so upset by Virgin America, as they've been doing very well and shouldn't be worried about competition. Is VAm planning on operating the NY-SF route from EWR or something? Maybe CO does have plans to merge with United after all.....United, who might have more to lose if VAm goes head to head with them.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

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    Senior Member Tom_Turner's Avatar
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    [quote=T-Bird76][quote="Tom_Turner":de396][quote="T-Bird76":de396]

    Quote Originally Posted by "RDU-JFK":de396
    adjusted their cost structure
    Great euphemism[/quote:de396]

    Well its better then saying, fired 1000's, dumped pensions, slashed benefits, contracted out work, cut passenger perks, and overall said FU to their employees and customers, LOLOL :D Trying to be politically correct here Tom....hehe[/quote:de396][/quote:de396]

    LOL.. I know.. :D
    "Keep 'em Flying"

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    The US airline industry needs another low cost low fare carrier like it needs a hole in the head.

    I can see it now, Branson galloping to the rescue of the American air traveller, saving them from high fares to SFO... :roll:

  9. #9
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AA@LGA
    The US airline industry needs another low cost low fare carrier like it needs a hole in the head.
    I kind of agree, but only in temrs of a new airline, as I see no problem with an LCC. I think this might be what's needed to push out an outdated dinosaur or two, no?

    I see it as the airline industry needs legacy carriers to adapt more and keep up with the economic demands of the 21st Century.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

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    First off there is NO OVERCAPCITY in the industry right now. Over the past few years capacity has been cut that the amount of planes taken out of service equals that of the entire fleet of Continental airlines. Second, load factors are at all time highs. The loads we are seeing haven't been this high since 1946. The fact of the matter is right now there aren't enough seats in many markets including NYC.

    Airlines switched from mainline large jets on many routes to 50 and 70 seater jets cutting capacity in some markets by 30%. Try to use your frequent flyer miles now; you'll be lucky to get a seat six months from now.

    Oh and who the **** is CO to cry about foreign control over a U.S airline?? These guys once owned 48% of COPA, now it’s about 25%. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black....!

    The U.S airlines are simply afraid of Virgin and dam straight they should be. Virgin has a fantastic successful product; they'll be able to offer the same fares as the legacies while offering the service people want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil D.

    I think this might be what's needed to push out an outdated dinosaur or two, no?
    Actually, it won't be whats needed.Didn't USAir rising from the dead show that an airline actually going out of business requires an act of god?

    Two trips through chapter 11 in three years, employees took three paycuts, pensions foisted off on the government and every talking head analyst spouting off about "LCC encroachment in their core markets",yet somehow there was enough capital invested in this carrier to allow it to merge with HP.


    Delta and Northwest will both exit chapter 11 and we'll be back to the status quo in this industry,too many carriers flying too many seats around.

    And airlines selling the product for less than it costs to produce...

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    Quote Originally Posted by AA@LGA
    The US airline industry needs another low cost low fare carrier like it needs a hole in the head.

    I can see it now, Branson galloping to the rescue of the American air traveller, saving them from high fares to SFO... :roll:
    We need as many airlines as we can allow, domestic, intl or foreign or LCC. We are a free country and we welcome any compeition, if the "legacies" can't handle the presence of LCC then tough ****. They need to adjust, it is business plain and simple.

    As for high fares, well it IS nice to not pay 1,000 r/t for an airfare, or maybe ill be generous, around 600, which is what we would see most likely if all LCC were off the country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    Over the past few years capacity has been cut that the amount of planes taken out of service equals that of the entire fleet of Continental airlines.
    Capacity cut at the legacy airlines yes, but not at the media darling low cost carriers.How many aircraft are on order at B6,FL and WN?

    No mention of the 120,000 jobs taken out of the airline industy either.

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    The loads we are seeing haven't been this high since 1946.
    Yeah and the fares are basically at the same point they were at the start of deregulation.

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