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Thread: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

  1. #31
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    there's very good evidence to suggest that the death of Mary Jo was murder and not accidental manslaughter
    Doubtful, murder needs premeditation. What most likely happened is Ted got tanked up at the party and was drunk when he drove off the bridge. He may have made some attempts to rescue her but once he failed he knew if he called 911 or anyone for that matter the fact he was drunk would come out. Hence the reason he didn't alert anyone till the next day. He got off light for what he did and it someone wanted to pursue it I don't think they would have got anything more than manslaughter with conspiracy to cover up the crime but he should have rotted in jail instead of getting 60 days suspended. Total joke.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    If he was driving while intoxicated (a felony) as widely suspected, any loss of life occurring during that offense would therefore be a felony (murder) as well.
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  3. #33
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    If he was driving while intoxicated (a felony) as widely suspected, any loss of life occurring during that offense would therefore be a felony (murder) as well.
    Third degree murder is often referred to and logged into the court system as involuntary manslaughter (felony). Involuntary manslaughter is murder that was not intended specifically by the defendant. Criminal negligence is often the precursor to involuntary manslaughter. Reckless use of a motor vehicle, firearms, explosives, animals, medicine, and the like that results in the death of a person falls under this category of murder. So unless he intentionally got tanked and intended to drive off the bridge and escape while also killing his passenger, it doesn't qualify as first degree (and not really second degree either) murder in the legal sense. I'm not saying there are arguments, even good ones to suggest it was very intentional (though I personally have a hard time believing them). I'm saying that based off what I've seen and read, I think murder of the second or first degree (particularly the first) is a very tough sell in this case, whereas involuntary manslaughter (the more common name for third degree murder) should've been a given.

  4. #34
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    I should have clarified further. The loss of life while a felony is being committed is felony murder 1 and NOT involuntary manslaughter. Nobody commits a felony involuntarily. He might not have intentionally gotten drunk, but nobody forced him to drive. Bad decision making and lack of consequential thinking enabled that. He also could have gotten help there a helluva lot sooner than 9 hours. Please. It was a death that shouldn't have happened especially because he should have never been behind the wheel.
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  5. #35
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Quote Originally Posted by mirrodie
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    Let me ask this, will you respect Timothy Mcveigh when he dies?
    Dude, for a guy who questions my memory, yours is a bit foggy. He was executed the day after my bday in 2001.

    That said, like Phil, I just side with giving the guy, like Michael Jackson, a day where I dont piss on their graves.
    heh; you were born June 10 I see...

    He was executed on MY birthday; June 11th...

  6. #36
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    I should have clarified further. The loss of life while a felony is being committed is felony murder 1 and NOT involuntary manslaughter. Nobody commits a felony involuntarily. He might not have intentionally gotten drunk, but nobody forced him to drive. Bad decision making and lack of consequential thinking enabled that. He also could have gotten help there a helluva lot sooner than 9 hours. Please. It was a death that shouldn't have happened especially because he should have never been behind the wheel.
    DUI's are not usually a felony on their own - it has to be combined with loss of life, serious injury, or multiple previous infractions (three strikes law). A first time stand-alone infraction is usually not going to be a felony. However, as far as I'm aware of the law, it does not bump it up to murder 1. Instead it becomes vehicular manslaughter, or involuntary manslaughter - in some states it is defined as vehicular homicide (especially when combined with multiple moving violations in the incident and past DUI charges). Manslaughter is usually going to be the higher charge, so the DUI gets bumped up to a felony. It can't be murder because it doesn't actually pass any of the tests of murder. Murder one is premeditated, "in cold blood" killings. This was not a premeditated, cold blood killing - so it isn't murder 1. It is a tough sell for murder two as well - because that test is a crime of passion, "in the heat of the moment". Unless he dragged her to the car after a heated fight, locked the doors, and attempted a murder/suicide in which he decided he didn't want to die anymore - it doesn't pass the test for murder two either...

  7. #37
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Quote Originally Posted by jerslice
    DUI's are not usually a felony on their own - it has to be combined with loss of life, serious injury, or multiple previous infractions (three strikes law). A first time stand-alone infraction is usually not going to be a felony. However, as far as I'm aware of the law, it does not bump it up to murder 1. Instead it becomes vehicular manslaughter, or involuntary manslaughter - in some states it is defined as vehicular homicide (especially when combined with multiple moving violations in the incident and past DUI charges). Manslaughter is usually going to be the higher charge, so the DUI gets bumped up to a felony. It can't be murder because it doesn't actually pass any of the tests of murder. Murder one is premeditated, "in cold blood" killings. This was not a premeditated, cold blood killing - so it isn't murder 1. It is a tough sell for murder two as well - because that test is a crime of passion, "in the heat of the moment". Unless he dragged her to the car after a heated fight, locked the doors, and attempted a murder/suicide in which he decided he didn't want to die anymore - it doesn't pass the test for murder two either...
    DUI's and DWI's are two different things. DUI's are misdemeanors, DWI's are felonies. It all depends on the subject's BAC level. A first time stand-alone infraction indeed can be a felonious act depending again on BAC levels. Once again, the loss of life during the undertaking of a felonious act will result in another felonious charge being murder 1. It will not be thought of as not premeditated as, like I said, nobody commits a felony by accident. It doesn't matter the circumstances in which she entered the car, if he was drunk, he in no way should have been operation a motor vehicle. Plain and simple.
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  8. #38
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Once again, the loss of life during the undertaking of a felonious act will result in another felonious charge being murder 1. It will not be thought of as not premeditated as, like I said, nobody commits a felony by accident.
    I don't see anything online that shows that. I'd be happy to agree with you if it's there - but I can't find anything to prove that out.
    Murder is defined primarily by motive and intent - not by result.

    Plus, while there are differences between DWI/DUI - no one actually knows what his BAC level was - so it's hard to say whether he was a DUI or DWI case.

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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Quote Originally Posted by jerslice
    Once again, the loss of life during the undertaking of a felonious act will result in another felonious charge being murder 1. It will not be thought of as not premeditated as, like I said, nobody commits a felony by accident.
    I don't see anything online that shows that. I'd be happy to agree with you if it's there - but I can't find anything to prove that out.
    Murder is defined primarily by motive and intent - not by result.
    I know law varies state to state but that's the statute here.
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  10. #40
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    I know law varies state to state but that's the statute here.
    Interesting - I've never seen that. Do you have a link to it? I'd like to read it over. (and I'm not necessarily looking to prove you wrong - I've just worked in law for awhile and I've never seen it work that way - I'd like to see how it reads)

    I have seen where prosecutors will seek (and be granted) murder two charges on a case where the defendant has prior DUI and/or DWI/OUI convictions - arguing that they already knew the dangers of operating under the influence and chose to do so anyways. But I haven't seen murder one.

    DUI/DWI definitions and applications vary heavily by state - it gets really murky.

  11. #41
    Senior Member moose135's Avatar
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Quote Originally Posted by wunaladreamin
    It doesn't matter the circumstances in which she entered the car, if he was drunk, he in no way should have been operation a motor vehicle.
    Emphasis added...this is all speculation, as no one here knows if he had been drinking, how much he had been drinking, or what his BAC might have been. I know some of you are going to say "Of course he was drunk..." but the fact remains there is no evidence of it.

  12. #42
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Quote Originally Posted by moose135
    Quote Originally Posted by wunaladreamin
    It doesn't matter the circumstances in which she entered the car, if he was drunk, he in no way should have been operation a motor vehicle.
    Emphasis added...this is all speculation, as no one here knows if he had been drinking, how much he had been drinking, or what his BAC might have been. I know some of you are going to say "Of course he was drunk..." but the fact remains there is no evidence of it.
    Indeed, but also take into consideration 9 hours of time elapsed before any authorities were contacted. So even if he were drunk at the time of the incident, he very well may have sobered up enough to avoid such charges.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Indeed, but also take into consideration 9 hours of time elapsed before any authorities were contacted. So even if he were drunk at the time of the incident, he very well may have sobered up enough to avoid such charges.
    Well it is the only reason anyone in their right mind would not seek help after pinning someone in their car under water after a MV accident. If he had not been drinking he would have contacted authorities. Whether they could have got her out in time is something we will never know but driving home late after a party and not calling anyone after a car accident? Sure John I bet he was stone cold sober.
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  14. #44
    Senior Member Gerard's Avatar
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Without getting into politics, did the Kennedy family charter a plane to fly from Hanscom to Andrews? Or was it a
    govt jet? With the size of their entourage they must have needed a 747!!! :)

  15. #45
    Moderator Matt Molnar's Avatar
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    Re: Senator Edward Kennedy dies

    Good question. Looks like he got a C-32. Video: http://www.thebostonchannel.com/video/2 ... index.html
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

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