Why are Fixes and Markers Changed ?

**Speedbird1** · 2008-03-24, 09:58 AM

I just looked-over the runway charts for JFK. Many are the same but several have changed. Gone is the 22L OM "LORRS" as well as the 22R OM "JOCKE". Even the OM "GRIMM" for 31R is no longer used. I also notice new names I'm unfamiliar with, such as fix "DMYHL" used now for the VOR 13L/R approach. Is this fix new? "CEMUG" for 22L was never used years ago. Why do marker names and fix names change? Aren't pilots familiar with the old names?

**PhilDernerJr** · 2008-03-24, 10:32 AM

Because kids look over runway charts at JFK.

I didn't know that they changed them.

**Speedbird1** · 2008-03-24, 10:47 AM

Because of the change, the JFK controller can no longer say to the pilot reporting over "GRIMM" OM, don't be so grimm, you're almost here. Somebody said that the FAA changes the names because they will soon be using GPS and all outer markers will be phased-out. Who knows? They have nothing better to do, as you say.

**Futterman** · 2008-03-24, 12:45 PM

The VOR-A approach into Lafayette was just revised last fall, and the only noticeable difference was the addition of a fix called UPUKE. Yeah...

http://flightaware.com/resources/airpor ... /VOR-A/pdf

At face value, waypoints like these serve two purposes: reporting a position to ATC and altitude/obstruction clearance, so they come and go as the operational and environmental factors necessitate. They also identify the FAF (final approach fix) and MAP (missed approach point).

The terrain in most of Indiana is pretty featureless (corn doesn't exactly get up to 2,000 feet high), so it seems UPUKE was added so our controllers could better anticipate and plan instrument arrivals. That said, I've only had to report it once (usually we call BATLE), and that was when it was a little crazy in the pattern. We're also non-radar.

At JFK, DMYHL has been around on the VOR/DME 13L/R for a long time. It's the MAP. It's an interesting fix because, unlike most others, it's not really pronouncable.

Brian

**PhilDernerJr** · 2008-03-24, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Futterman

At JFK, DMYHL has been around on the VOR/DME 13L/R for a long time. It's the MAP. It's an interesting fix because, unlike most others, it's not really pronouncable.

That's exactly what I said to myself when I first read it. How would one do it? "duh-mile"?

**adam613** · 2008-03-24, 02:55 PM

They do some cute things with fix names...My favorite is the ILS 16 approach at PSM (Portsmouth, NH). The fixes on the approach path are ITAWT, ITAWA, PUDYE, and TTATT. The missed approach fix is IDEED. There's also a fix called SATAN somewhere up there.

**HPNPilot1200** · 2008-03-24, 03:53 PM

The FAA has been decommissioning outer markers left and right for a while now, since they really aren't needed anymore with the advance in modern technology (GPS, WAAS, LAAS, etc). I think they found that to maintain the OM antenna site is a waste of money (probably the only thing they've gotten right in the last ten years). The outer marker beacon is not a required component of any ILS approach (there are a few exceptions), so it merely serves to identify the non-precision FAF which can alternately be identified via GPS, dual-VOR receivers, DME, and often ADF.

If you happen to run into an IAP that has an OM but it is not co-located with an intersection (ie: ILS or LOC RWY 4 at JVL) and flying an aircraft that is not equipped with either GPS, DME, or ADF, you're not legal to shoot the non-precision approach since a marker beacon receiver is required to identify the FAF.

I would suspect the reason behind changing the name of a co-located fix on an IAP after an OM has been decommissioned is to avoid confusion as to the location of the fix in the future in the case of a pilot using an expired GPS database (which is another legal issue in itself). It's just another double check.

**Speedbird1** · 2008-03-27, 12:24 PM

Great. There's also a waypoint, PRETY which I cannot even locate the country. I have searched and searched for it in vain. It is used often both by KAL and JAL enroute to JFK. It must be somewhere between Japan and Vancouver Island. JFK controllers used to joke about aircraft over ASALT enroute using the VOR 13L/R approach but since 9-11, the jokes have stopped.

**AA 777** · 2008-03-27, 01:49 PM

I cant wait for more GPS approaches, because now we will have more waypoints that I cant even attempt to pronounce on the radio... :roll:

The RNAV 23 into Lakeland (LAL) has some that really caught me off guard last week when the Tampa controller wanted to know where I wanted to Start the approach.... We were headed directly towards EHAGU - E haaaa GOO!? (one of the IAF's) but how on Earth are you supposed to say it!? May seem easy now, but try flying in the soup while working on your grammar! :evil:

Hopefully when they start to phase out other "old fashioned" way points the new GPS way points can have real names!!! Until then I'd like to preceed direct toward "asdfghj"

**HPNPilot1200** · 2008-03-27, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Speedbird1

Great. There's also a waypoint, PRETY which I cannot even locate the country. I have searched and searched for it in vain. It is used often both by KAL and JAL enroute to JFK. It must be somewhere between Japan and Vancouver Island. JFK controllers used to joke about aircraft over ASALT enroute using the VOR 13L/R approach but since 9-11, the jokes have stopped.

PRETY is an offshore pacific RNAV waypoint. Lat/Long: 49-00-00.000N / 132-26-36.000W

Originally Posted by AA 777

I cant wait for more GPS approaches, because now we will have more waypoints that I cant even attempt to pronounce on the radio... :roll:

The RNAV 23 into Lakeland (LAL) has some that really caught me off guard last week when the Tampa controller wanted to know where I wanted to Start the approach.... We were headed directly towards EHAGU - E haaaa GOO!? (one of the IAF's) but how on Earth are you supposed to say it!? May seem easy now, but try flying in the soup while working on your grammar! :evil:

Hopefully when they start to phase out other "old fashioned" way points the new GPS way points can have real names!!! Until then I'd like to preceed direct toward "asdfghj"

I can definitely relate -- many of the new waypoints that are appearing on new GPS IAPs are very interesting to pronounce. It took me a little while to figure out how I wanted to say "CZIMR" which is the FAF for the RNAV (GPS) RWY 16 at White Plains. If I say "Sizzz Merr" I'm sure the next pilot will say it a different way anyhow.

**stuart schechter** · 2008-03-28, 01:45 AM

Jason, I've never been able to get that one quite right either, along with the CMK VOR and the non-NY pilots saying Caramel. ARGH! DMYHL is also used as a marker point for the Parkway visual 13L/R as a reference point on where to start the turn in to 13L.

**HPNPilot1200** · 2008-03-28, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by stuart schechter

Jason, I've never been able to get that one quite right either, along with the CMK VOR and the non-NY pilots saying Caramel. ARGH! DMYHL is also used as a marker point for the Parkway visual 13L/R as a reference point on where to start the turn in to 13L.

DMYHL is actually the MAP for the VOR/DME 13L/R, and also where the turn to follow the lead-in lights initiates on the approach. As you pointed out, it's also used as reference on the Parkway Visual 13L/R.