Me on the Other End of a Police/Photography Incident

" I see your point, but I don't feel that what I said was offensive in any way. Seeing two Arab people in that car, both filming a bridge, did look more suspicious to me than if I saw to preppy white kids. It has nothing to do with where they were born. It was what I feel to be a "healthy amount" of stereotyping."

And...

"USA doesn't have a monopoly on suffering at the hands of terror, and it certainly doesn't give people the right to carry on in such an offensive manner, especially in front of people who are visitors to the country. that's probably the worst memory i have of my trips to the USA, a country i enjoy visiting apart from that constant sour note that seems to follow me."

Monty, the comments you heard are completely inappropriate, disgusting, insulting and most of all ignorant. But why would they?

The American attitude is molded and programmed from many years thanks to the American media, especially Hollywood, love to depict Middle Easterners as "the bad guys" repeatedly and reliably. This sort of programming comes face to face on the streets today.

(Face it, ALL walks of life, race, religion, profession have there bad eggs)

And nowadays in the US its considered "OK" to partial, to be racist, be suspicious of all Middle Easterners regardless. And of course is not a written law. Citizens feel its normal. Its common and cool to let out little slurs in public. They feel comfortable with it. After all its totally supported by the present administration. And "they" are to blame for it all (pick something negative, war, gas $, bad weather, whatever--it will fit)

Just try (read-never happen) if Hollywood would produce a movie that would so completely tarnish, threaten and insult another race as a whole and get away with it!

....and justice for all.

( I feel a locked thread coming on)

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Originally Posted by Mr Smith

yes it's the only country to has been attacked by middle eastern men flying planes but it's not the only country that's been the victim of terrorism. I'm well aware of the situation, we have similar issues down here with police but i've never heard the blatant abuse, discrimination and racial taunts anywhere else and these are coming from fellow spotters.

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Personally I've never seen anything blatantly racist or discriminatory as you seem to be describing either on this board or on anet. Unless of course, you are very offended by what Phil did on the bridge or what I said about racial profiling.

Following Pearl Harbor, the United States locked over 100,000 Japanese away in internment camps to prevent them from helping attack the West Coast, because, as Lt Gen John DeWitt told Congress, "it makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. American citizenship does not necessarily determine loyalty." When you zoom out and look at Americans' reactions to 9/11 next to what we did after Pearl Harbor, and the reactions of other countries after suffering major attacks, you'll see everything from internment camps to genocide. What did we do after 9/11? Rather than rounding up every Muslim or Saudi or Arab and ejecting them from our economic and government power centers, we told the public "If you see something, say something."

Getting an occasional talking to from a cop because you match a certain profile and are doing something somewhat out of the ordinary (standing under a flight path with a camera for hours at a time is not "ordinary" in any society, two people in a car videotaping a bridge while driving is not "ordinary" in any society) is by far the most favorable option available.

Don't worry about locking. These are all great points. People are attacking posts, not the posters, so there is no problem with that here. Mods will only lock or delete posts if the thread has turned to personal attacks.

FlyingColors is right. There IS a programming that has gone on in the US. On 9/11, footage was shown of Arab people cheering in the streets....using footage that was old. That kind of thing does happen.

Nick said it best. He feels I erred, but on the side of caution. I have no problem with those who disagree with me, but I'm pleased that he can see my side of it and that I did not have racist intentions. Honestly, if I saw two angry while people at the same age, both driver and passenger doing the same thing, I don't believe my reaction would have been any different.

Phil..with all due respect, THINK! It happnes ...

The media has you all jacked up to be punchy.

Think WHAT they are filming at, and HOW.

WHAT--- the top side of a public bridge.
HOW -- it was done in public (yes anything you do in a car is considered in public)

WHAT IF someone had impure thoughts for the bridge? Where can one make a mark? The underside!
And if your to make a reconnaissance film for a premeditated strike HOW could you do it? If your just a bit crafty on would rig up a camera in a suitcase on the roof, fix a camera through a tinted window. Do something deceptive!

Holding a camera in public is NOT deceptive.
They were certainly not inconspicuous.
Just like us, very conspicuous!

I'd say the chaps are 99.9% likely students of architecture, video photography (that can be a home made/entry level econo panoramic film), or fascinated tourists.

I've shared my views, and at this point there is not much more I can say. I think I'm one of the last people to profile or find photography suspicious, especially considering that I've been detained more than once for it. But here, when I saw what I did, alarms went off in my gut. I use my gut. It wasn't because he was Arab, it wasn't because of the camera. There were several factors that came together to tell my gut that something was not right.

It might look like what I did was racist, wrong, contradicting, hateful, not thought-out, but regardless, I stand by my gut.

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Originally Posted by FlyingColors

The American attitude is molded and programmed from many years thanks to the American media, especially Hollywood, love to depict Middle Easterners as "the bad guys" repeatedly and reliably. This sort of programming comes face to face on the streets today.

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This is almost the complete opposite of the truth. Hollywood is more terrified of these guys than anyone. They've gone as far as fundamentally changing stories just to avoid even a hint of predjudice. With the exception of the Fox series 24, I cannot think of any recent film or TV show that treats Muslims with anything but kid gloves. For one example, Tom Clancy's fantastic book "The Sum of All Fears", which details a plot of Muslim extremists collaborating with anti-government Native Americans to detonate a nuclear warhead in the United States, was essentially transformed into "Die Hard 4" when Hollywood got its hands on it...changing the villains into Germans! (Perhaps not coincidentally, the internet's hottest 9/11 conspiracy theory more or less mirrors the plot of Die Hard 3, but I digress).

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Originally Posted by FlyingColors

WHAT IF someone had impure thoughts for the bridge? Where can one make a mark? The underside!

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Many of our victories in the War on Terror can be traced directly to the stupidity of the plotters.

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Originally Posted by Phil D.

It might look like what I did was racist, wrong, contradicting, hateful, not thought-out, but regardless, I stand by my gut.

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I don't think anyone is implying that Phil. Those who know you will never think that. 9/11 did more than bring two buildings down, and in fact I think the point that Mike touched on about the media is also a good one. It has made some people absolutely paranoid with fear. This is why we get the treatment we do. It's a fine line, but what I think we are all trying to accomplish is fair treatment and no ignorance when we have to be approached and checked out by the authorities. If someone sees us and deems us suspicious.

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Originally Posted by Phil D.

Monty,

I see your point, but I don't feel that what I said was offensive in any way. Seeing two Arab people in that car, both filming a bridge, did look more suspicious to me than if I saw to preppy white kids. It has nothing to do with where they were born. It was what I feel to be a "healthy amount" of stereotyping.

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you didn't say anything offensive from where i sit, maybe a little naive but nothing offensive...i've heard worse then that mate, i'm just saying throwing the "middle eastern" tag is a little inappropriate when you have no idea who those people are. But you've done it again in this post. Why not just 2 people looking suspect?

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Personally I've never seen anything blatantly racist or discriminatory as you seem to be describing either on this board or on anet. Unless of course, you are very offended by what Phil did on the bridge or what I said about racial profiling.

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not offensive or offended by what Phil said or did...just frustrated by that type of attitude, was there really a need to mention "they were middle eastern" at all? you, me and Phil know full well that this may not be the case, Islamic yes, Middle Eastern, who knows, they could well have been born in the USA.

i kinda have my own theory as to why i've heard the remarks on spotting trips, I think it's due to the fact that some of the spotters i've met are annoyed with the situation in there area, they feel the need to vent and think that it maybe deemed acceptable if they say in front of a fellow spotter from overseas, or that i may share the same view. To me it's not acceptable...but that's just me and it probably stems from the fact that being a wog in school we copped alot of racial abuse.

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The American attitude is molded and programmed from many years thanks to the American media, especially Hollywood, love to depict Middle Easterners as "the bad guys" repeatedly and reliably. This sort of programming comes face to face on the streets today.

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pretty sure we had this conversation in the car!? :o you know i 110% agree with you.

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Just try (read-never happen) if Hollywood would produce a movie that would so completely tarnish, threaten and insult another race as a whole and get away with it!

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maybe a movie about Tim McVeigh is in order then? It's frustrating mate, but what can you do? you have to educate people that it's not ok to taint 1.9blillion due to the actions of 19. But you just have to go to the local video store and look in the action releases...find a terror plot film from the 80's-90's or around that time and see who's cast as the terrorists. It stems back long before 9/11.

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It might look like what I did was racist, wrong, contradicting, hateful, not thought-out, but regardless, I stand by my gut.

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If you don't want it to look like that then don't make the assertion about somebodies ethnicity until you know for sure. I think when you said "they were middle eastern" to me it comes off as a round-about way of saying they are muslim. With that thinking it suggests to me that because they are muslims, who are filming a public bridge, they need further investigating. what would you've done if it was me you drove past filming the same brdige? What are repurcussions of your actions Phil? Your actions could have saved a bridge, they could also have set an innocent family up for unwarranted abuse, survaillence and god knows what else...

I'm not having a crack at you mate...you knw me and when i do have a crack i'll make sure everyone knows, just think you need to leave certain parts of the puzzle out.

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Originally Posted by Mr Smith

What are repurcussions of your actions Phil? Your actions could have saved a bridge, they could also have set an innocent family up for unwarranted abuse, survaillance and god knows what else...

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Whether or not they were innocent, surveillance would have been warranted since they were clearly breaking a law which is posted on signs on these bridges. "Bridge photography is strictly prohibited" is clear enough, in my opinion. They're not breaking the law any less if they didn't SEE the sign...just as someone who didn't see the "No handheld phones in NY" sign is still going to get pulled over if they're on their phone.

Whatever the skin color, they were still breaking the rules.

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Originally Posted by Mellyrose

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Originally Posted by Mr Smith

What are repurcussions of your actions Phil? Your actions could have saved a bridge, they could also have set an innocent family up for unwarranted abuse, survaillance and god knows what else...

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Whether or not they were innocent, surveillance would have been warranted since they were clearly breaking a law which is posted on signs on these bridges. "Bridge photography is strictly prohibited" is clear enough, in my opinion. They're not breaking the law any less if they didn't SEE the sign...just as someone who didn't see the "No handheld phones in NY" sign is still going to get pulled over if they're on their phone.



Whatever the skin color, they were still breaking the rules.

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so was i when i did it...i guess it depends on how you interpret the word "suspiscious" and what you look for when it comes to "suspect" individuals..in other words, profiling.

I think I see what you're saying, Monty, that if I felt that these people were suspicious, then they are just suspicious and I shouldn't even have to mention the fact that these people were Middle Eastern because it's not necessary and shouldn’t be a factor.

But honestly, it IS a factor. Now I'm not saying that the US is the big victim in the world, far from it. I'm certainly not saying that all Middle Easterners, or even a majority of them, are terrorists, pro-terrorist, or even anti-American.

Though Australia has some troops deployed as well, the fact remains that the US is at war with two countries right now, and also at war against a terror group with worldwide range that does not wear a uniform and is not clearly identifiable. What are we left to do but profile in SOME way?

A couple weeks ago, a man with Al Qaeda connections was arrested less than one mile from me on Ash Avenue in Flushing. Right here in my town.

A close friend of my sister came home from Iraq last week...riddled with scars from a roadside bomb. I'm shocked he's alive.

Again, not playing the victim, but the war is a lot closer to home here in NY than you think, even long after 9/11. Because of this, what was already a very suspicious act to me on that bridge regardless of that couple's race, WAS in fact heightened by the fact that they were Middle Eastern. NOT because of Hollywood's or the media's influence, but because I had a neighbor in my town that was working towards killing Americans (not the first time in my town either by any means), and because the guy that taught me how to take a jump shot a when I was younger now has a silver-dollars sized section of scar tissue on his neck, an inch off his jugular.

I have NO beef with Middle Easterners. But when I see something like what these people were doing, with their angry faces and my gut not allowing me to let my concern pass, I WILL profile.

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I think I see what you're saying, Monty, that if I felt that these people were suspicious, then they are just suspicious and I shouldn't even have to mention the fact that these people were Middle Eastern because it's not necessary and shouldn’t be a factor.

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correct...at the end of the day you don't know for sure they were middle eastern, that's what i'm getting at, they could have been Italian Muslims, Greek Muslims, Spanish, North African...you can't cast the assertion of someones ethnicity by a cursory glance.

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Though Australia has some troops deployed as well, the fact remains that the US is at war with two countries right now, and also at war against a terror group with worldwide range that does not wear a uniform and is not clearly identifiable. What are we left to do but profile in SOME way?

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the US is more at war with Iraq then it is with Al Qaida...5 years and the mastermind behind 9/11 still roams around and doesn't seem to be a concern to the administration...in a bizarre way i think the US govt prefers to have him on the loose, it's there way of using him to instill fear into the people and hold power over them. I have no beef with the war in Afghanistan or the against the Al Qaida, unfortunately it seems to have taken second place to a mess in Iraq. Australia lost people at the hands of Al Qaida in WTC attacks, Bali, London and Madrid and i'm all for the destruction of Al Qaida...it just seems it's getting further away then ever before.

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WAS in fact heightened by the fact that they were Middle Eastern.

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and that's where you set yourself up for criticism, you've got no evidence that they were middle eastern, Islam isn't confined to just one region of the world! I take it you identified them as being of the Islamic faith by there clothing etc? that's fair enough and maybe self evident, i wasn't there...but your make a bad call saying they are from a region when you have NO proof of that.

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I have NO beef with Middle Easterners. But when I see something like what these people were doing, with their angry faces and my gut not allowing me to let my concern pass, I WILL profile.

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you've allowed the actions of a few to cloud your judgement. you may not have a beef with moslems but you are inclined to think the worst. That's pretty scarey mate, everyone deserves to be judged equally, are you going to judge me because i look like the guy down the road who killed an 8 y/o girl without reason, not everyone has bad intetions.

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you don't know for sure they were middle eastern

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I live all around Midlde Easterners. I know the cultural clothing and I can tell. It's not racist to look at someone wearing the known cultural clothing on a Middle Eastern Muslim and think that they are a Middle Eastern Muslim.

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you've got no evidence that they were middle eastern, Islam isn't confined to just one region of the world

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I do have evidence that they were Middle Eastern. As I said earlier in this post, I know what Middle Easterners look like and dress like and all that. I live in the most diverse town in the entire world, literally. I can tell the difference between people, and whether or not someone is Middle Eastern or Italian.

What does an Italian muslim have to do with anything though? Wherever they are from, that doesn't change the fact that they were of Middle Eastenr ancestry and were wearing Muslim clothing.

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the US is more at war with Iraq then it is with Al Qaida...5 years and the mastermind behind 9/11 still roams around

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That's a political topic that has nothing to do with what I said or this thread.

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you may not have a beef with moslems but you are inclined to think the worst.

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"The worst", in regards to me suspicions, had nothing to do with his ethnicity. I was concerned enough without that being a factor.

If someone is doing what they were doing, the way they were dong it, and my gut insisting that something was a little off, then I'd call the cops anyway...white, black, green, whatever. If they happen to fit the cultural category of a people that has a measurable following in the world that hates the US and our Western culture, then that WILL add a bit to my suspicion as well, albeit a small factor.

Phil, you did the right thing. If they are legit then they have nothing to worry about. If not then maybe your call could lead to a cell working in NYC.

Something as simple as this as already lead to breaking up cells.

Thanks Phil.