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CathayA340
11-24-2014, 06:41 PM
Someone requested for me to post this on the forums, but here's one thing - I don't really want to see any "I told you so, that's what you get" kind of posts here.

EWR was absolutely horrible yesterday! There were 3 of us (Me, and two friends). We avoided security at the Economy Parking Lot P6 for 3 hours...suddenly, an undercover cop came up, showed us his badge and motion us to come to him. He asked what we were doing and I told him that we were planespotting. My dad came out and the cop asked for his ID and took a picture of it with his iPhone. One of my friends questioned why it was illegal to film the planes and the cop replied, "Excuse me? You wanna take a visit to the police station and get arrested?" He forced us to leave and watched us as we left the lot. Never going back there again...I guess this was the real EWR treatment. From now on...JFK/LGA only!

Gerard
11-24-2014, 09:13 PM
Someone requested for me to post this on the forums, but here's one thing - I don't really want to see any "I told you so, that's what you get" kind of posts here.


Really? Why would we do that? :tongue::rolleyes::confused:

Mateo
11-24-2014, 10:16 PM
You gotta know a guy to go to Newark.

Jared Blech
11-24-2014, 11:14 PM
Just saying it. Told you so. You really should listen.

Cary
11-25-2014, 01:26 AM
http://i.imgur.com/S7cLfjd.jpg

Jared Blech
11-25-2014, 09:11 PM
http://i.imgur.com/S7cLfjd.jpg

Great to see you on the forums Cary!

lijk604
11-26-2014, 10:02 AM
Some people just never learn.

Zee71
11-26-2014, 12:18 PM
Now why did you do that? Folks with years of spotting experiences have shared their stories about spotting at KEWR, and none of them were good. So, why would you think it would be any better? Folks on here provide good guidance but it seems individuals don't listen which could impact our spotting hobby.

NEXT TIME: Listen to others, do your research (look at the spotting guides posted here), and follow the rules .... otherwise, "I told you so". There are "NO ENTITLEMENTS" when it comes to spotting.

NIKV69
11-26-2014, 04:10 PM
Now why did you do that? Folks with years of spotting experiences have shared their stories about spotting at KEWR, and none of them were good. So, why would you think it would be any better? Folks on here provide good guidance but it seems individuals don't listen which could impact our spotting hobby.

NEXT TIME: Listen to others, do your research (look at the spotting guides posted here), and follow the rules .... otherwise, "I told you so". There are "NO ENTITLEMENTS" when it comes to spotting.

Well said Mark. EWR is an airport you can shoot at but you have to go about it a certain way. Seek counsel here. Ask questions and you will be fine.

Gintaras B.
11-26-2014, 07:06 PM
I do have a couple things to say about - it could be somehow related to OP - spotting @ EWR.

This past summer I've met and spotted a couple or more times with spotter from MIA @ JFK...And what he told me: "MIA wasn't always friendly to plane spotters, but people just kept coming and spotting...coming and spotting...Then, some saw spotters as not some bad guys and things started to change..." And also, I was told: "You guys here @ JFK should do the same"...

If we don't do anything outlawed while spotting, what should we be afraid of? Of course, while spotting at some parking lot where hundreds of shoppers come and go, anyone shouldn't be walking with camera strap around ones neck - we not at wedding ceremony doing some shots....

Second, Bayswaters Park(On NYC Aviation planespotting guide)has WORSE than EWR review considering Security - noticed word: "detained"? Planespotting guide doesn't have that word in EWR guide and it looks not as bad location as Bayswaters...
I've been detained @ Bayswaters late last year - it's a tread about on this subforum. I don't remember anyone telling me: "I told you so..." Should I stop going to Bayswaters again?
Should I? NO...Would I? YES...

Why FOX NEWS have this (http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2013/12/04/airport-observation-decks-around-world/) - print, have with you and show a LEO, when encountered...

Why can't we be like that:

http://aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=393662&d=1374840572

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3876/14638041798_207832912d_b.jpg

CathayA340
11-27-2014, 02:10 PM
I do have a couple things to say about - it could be somehow related to OP - spotting @ EWR.

This past summer I've met and spotted a couple or more times with spotter from MIA @ JFK...And what he told me: "MIA wasn't always friendly to plane spotters, but people just kept coming and spotting...coming and spotting...Then, some saw spotters as not some bad guys and things started to change..." And also, I was told: "You guys here @ JFK should do the same"...

If we don't do anything outlawed while spotting, what should we be afraid of? Of course, while spotting at some parking lot where hundreds of shoppers come and go, anyone shouldn't be walking with camera strap around ones neck - we not at wedding ceremony doing some shots....

Second, Bayswaters Park(On NYC Aviation planespotting guide)has WORSE than EWR review considering Security - noticed word: "detained"? Planespotting guide doesn't have that word in EWR guide and it looks not as bad location as Bayswaters...
I've been detained @ Bayswaters late last year - it's a tread about on this subforum. I don't remember anyone telling me: "I told you so..." Should I stop going to Bayswaters again?
Should I? NO...Would I? YES...

Why FOX NEWS have this (http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2013/12/04/airport-observation-decks-around-world/) - print, have with you and show a LEO, when encountered...

Why can't we be like that:

http://aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=393662&d=1374840572

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3876/14638041798_207832912d_b.jpg

Well said Gintaras, very interesting info. I wish EWR could be like MIA/ORD with airport watch, but that will never happen at this point. I haven't encountered any police/security at JFK but always at EWR. I will have a copy of this article with me during spotting at all times now.

eric8669
11-27-2014, 02:36 PM
CathayA340 What Article? don't use this forum post as thinking its ok to spot at EWR. have you not read anything everyone is trying to say to you.

steve1840
11-27-2014, 02:49 PM
Eric, and everyone else...why are you wasting your proverbial breath on this kid? He obviously doesn't have any intention of listening to anybody on here. The only way he well learn is when he gets detained.

Gintaras B.
11-27-2014, 04:01 PM
CathayA340 What Article? don't use this forum post as thinking its ok to spot at EWR. have you not read anything everyone is trying to say to you.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2013/12/04/airport-observation-decks-around-world/

Gintaras B.
11-27-2014, 04:29 PM
Eric, and everyone else...why are you wasting your proverbial breath on this kid? He obviously doesn't have any intention of listening to anybody on here. The only way he well learn is when he gets detained.

Steve...I hope you don't jinx yourself...unless you do some bagde(s)

NYC Aviation Planespotting guide does list Bayswaters more dangerous, unfriendly to spotters, as EWR...

Just wonder...why kid spotting @ EWR is treated on this forum different than I was:

http://nycaviation.com/forum/threads/46811-Well-didn-t-think-that-hobby-can-be-so-dangerous

Steve...why some of you are so mean to others? Does it make feel better about yourself? "I told you so"..."He obviously doesn't have any intention of listening to anybody on here"..."The only way he well learn is when he gets detained"...

Some get more access to planes, to get better shots...some will share, some(EGOs) - won't....

Why can't WE be more friendly to each other...to help each other????

steve1840
11-27-2014, 05:05 PM
Gintaras, it's got nothing to do with not sharing locations. He was warned not to hang out at EWR because of the rush of being met by authorities but he insisted on going there and hanging out. EWR is not spotter friendly. Simple as that. If he insists on not listening, and going there and hanging out for lengthy periods then he will eventually risk getting detained.

CathayA340
11-27-2014, 05:17 PM
Steve...I hope you don't jinx yourself...unless you do some bagde(s)

NYC Aviation Planespotting guide does list Bayswaters more dangerous, unfriendly to spotters, as EWR...

Just wonder...why kid spotting @ EWR is treated on this forum different than I was:

http://nycaviation.com/forum/threads/46811-Well-didn-t-think-that-hobby-can-be-so-dangerous

Steve...why some of you are so mean to others? Does it make feel better about yourself? "I told you so"..."He obviously doesn't have any intention of listening to anybody on here"..."The only way he well learn is when he gets detained"...

Some get more access to planes, to get better shots...some will share, some(EGOs) - won't....

Why can't WE be more friendly to each other...to help each other????

It's true, Bayswater is said to be more dangerous than EWR on the guides here.
And yeah, comparing these two forms...I am treated as a 5 year old and Gintaras is treated fairly with respect?
I am simply sharing my experience, as a request from another spotter here.
I am not listening to you guys to not go to EWR. I am doing it because I am trying to HELP, and make EWR more friendly. And obviously that isn't going to well, and I am sharing what my experience was. It seems that some of you don't appreciate it. I want to also share videos/pictures, not just share my spotting experience. Is it wrong to share pictures and experiences from Newark?

lijk604
11-27-2014, 05:27 PM
It's not wrong to share your experience. But don't come across as all surprised that you were harassed by the authorities at EWR, when you have been told numbers times that spotting at EWR is very difficult at best by yourself, and that groups are not recommended. You need to be stealthy at EWR, and a group does not say stealth at all.

Gintaras, we have tried to be nice. What you are seeing from us is frustration and head shaking. In my over 10 years of spotting, I have NEVER had an issue at Bayswater. NEVER.
The only times that I heard that someone was given an issue was 1) Being there before the park officially opened. Some clever spotter found an alternate way into the park, and the park rangers were not happy about that. 2) Security is tight whenever AF1 is due in, especially since 31L is the preferred runway for them.

Now, if someone were doing something to attract attention to themselves in a negative way, that's on them. I don't know why you were given a hard time there, so I cannot comment about it, nor will I speculate that you were bringing attention to yourself. I have sat there in a lawn chair shooting for hours with the only problem being the damn bugs.

CathayA340
11-27-2014, 05:35 PM
It's not wrong to share your experience. But don't come across as all surprised that you were harassed by the authorities at EWR, when you have been told numbers times that spotting at EWR is very difficult at best by yourself, and that groups are not recommended. You need to be stealthy at EWR, and a group does not say stealth at all.

Gintaras, we have tried to be nice. What you are seeing from us is frustration and head shaking. In my over 10 years of spotting, I have NEVER had an issue at Bayswater. NEVER.
The only times that I heard that someone was given an issue was 1) Being there before the park officially opened. Some clever spotter found an alternate way into the park, and the park rangers were not happy about that. 2) Security is tight whenever AF1 is due in, especially since 31L is the preferred runway for them.

Now, if someone were doing something to attract attention to themselves in a negative way, that's on them. I don't know why you were given a hard time there, so I cannot comment about it, nor will I speculate that you were bringing attention to yourself. I have sat there in a lawn chair shooting for hours with the only problem being the damn bugs.

Understood, but it seems like it is right now. I am also surprised at the reactions/differences between this thread vs. Gintaras' spotting experience at Bayswater. Well, EWR is over for me now after what happened. Even though the drive to JFK is twice as long for me, it will be worth it to get some quality time plane spotting :biggrin:

And for Bayswater, I have never seen police/or had an issue there. And yeah, the only problem there is the bugs ;)

Zee71
11-27-2014, 07:40 PM
BTW .... I'm not seeing it either where it states or references that Bayswater is more dangerous than EWR in the guides. As John, mentioned it's the bugs during the summer months that I hate too. I too have brought my chair, spotted and chatted there with many other spotters without incident.

Take this a lesson learned and enjoy the hobby and respect the law.

skyteam18
11-27-2014, 07:52 PM
It's sad how this forum is composed of spineless people when it comes to ewr. Nothing will change as long as everyone is submissive to power tripping cops.

steve1840
11-27-2014, 08:09 PM
What's sad is that the forum is full of asshats that only post when there is a chance to add to create or add to drama.

CathayA340
11-27-2014, 08:33 PM
BTW .... I'm not seeing it either where it states or references that Bayswater is more dangerous than EWR in the guides. As John, mentioned it's the bugs during the summer months that I hate too. I too have brought my chair, spotted and chatted there with many other spotters without incident.

Take this a lesson learned and enjoy the hobby and respect the law.

The word "detained" in Bayswater makes it seem more dangerous than the current EWR description.
Indeed I will, thank you.
Oh, and this may be off-topic here...but I have a spot at EWR, not on airport property that you can get fair shots from of aircraft arriving on 4R. It's located on Dowd Rd, and from my experiences there, no security/police issues. But still, I am not going back there :) Going to completely avoid EWR.

Gerard
11-27-2014, 09:28 PM
It's true, Bayswater is said to be more dangerous than EWR on the guides here.


Why is the word "dangerous" used in relation to Bayswater? Why is the word "dangerous" being used in relation to EWR? :confused:
Seriously, unless you run the risk of personal bodily injury while spotting there STOP using that word!! Being questioned by the authorities and possible being
detained for a few minutes does not constitute danger!! Stop being so friggin dramatic!!

NIKV69
11-27-2014, 10:34 PM
It's sad how this forum is composed of spineless people when it comes to ewr. Nothing will change as long as everyone is submissive to power tripping cops.

It has nothing to do with being spineless. EWR is the type of airfield that you have to use your head. There are certain things like never going there as a group for starters. I go alone and lay low. You can last hours there if you just use your common sense and know when to cut your losses.

skyteam18
11-28-2014, 09:29 AM
It has nothing to do with being spineless. EWR is the type of airfield that you have to use your head. There are certain things like never going there as a group for starters. I go alone and lay low. You can last hours there if you just use your common sense and know when to cut your losses.

"I go it alone and lay low." <--- THIS is why you have a problem at EWR.

As long as you create the environment of "I'm doing an illegal activity" while shoot photos of airplanes, the public and the police will perceive this as something to be feared and dealt with.

This is what makes me mad. Spotters around EWR have (whether knowingly or unknowingly) by their actions while shooting planes ("I go alone and lay low") have created a troubled relationship between hobbyists and authorities to the extent that I won't come up and shoot photos around EWR, even though it's perfectly legal activity.

I have some ideas on how to improve the spotting culture are EWR and will gladly share them.

NIKV69
11-28-2014, 09:50 AM
"I go it alone and lay low." <--- THIS is why you have a problem at EWR.

As long as you create the environment of "I'm doing an illegal activity" while shoot photos of airplanes, the public and the police will perceive this as something to be feared and dealt with.

This is what makes me mad. Spotters around EWR have (whether knowingly or unknowingly) by their actions while shooting planes ("I go alone and lay low") have created a troubled relationship between hobbyists and authorities to the extent that I won't come up and shoot photos around EWR, even though it's perfectly legal activity.

I have some ideas on how to improve the spotting culture are EWR and will gladly share them.


You really have no idea what you are talking about. I have shot EWR many times and never really had any issues. It isn't the behavior of spotters that is the reason authorities don't tolerate us as they do at JFK. You should research things before you insult guys who have been in the hobby for years and have shot there. If you don't want to shoot there, it sounds like you would be better not coming.

Also I would love to hear your ideas for improving the spotting culture.

skyteam18
11-28-2014, 10:02 AM
Honest question: Why don't the authorities at EWR tolerate you the same way as they do at JFK?

NIKV69
11-28-2014, 11:02 AM
Honest question: Why don't the authorities at EWR tolerate you the same way as they do at JFK?

How in the name of God do I know? I don't work for for Port Authority. It's always been a high security spot and contrary to your assumptions, not caused by spotters behaving a certain way. If you have nothing to do for 2 hours google it and you will see for the last 12 years spotters around the world have had issues there, no matter how they behaved. So before you keep insulting us with your conspiracy theories, research these things before you type your statements.

And an apology wouldn't be a bad idea since you basically insulted a lot of guys who have been shooting planes for a long time there.

PhilDernerJr
11-28-2014, 11:13 AM
First, regardless of your views, I wish some people were better at communicating with one another instead of namecalling. When we see incidents like this, even if it is frustrating to us, we still need to work together, or at least treat each other with respect. Offending posts will be moderated.

Though Bayswater has had its share of incidents (I myself have been detained there), there have been hundreds and hundreds of visits that people have had with NO issue whatsoever, so I consider the risk to be less. Also, when I was detained, the police were not as rude or aggressive as at EWR.

At EWR, it seems that the police are ALWAYS like that, that your chances of receiving that type of attention is EXPECTED almost EVERY time you go. Not the case at Bayswater.

If people have suggestions on the wording of the EWR guide on this site to emphasize its frequency of police encounters, I'd have no problem with that.

As for this thread, should the spotter have been shocked to receive that attention? Not at all. Also, I don't think the spotter was COMPLAINING, but just sharing his story. And we should encourage that instead of acting like he necessarily did something wrong or as though HE is the problem here.

He has a right to go and TRY to spot, as it is not illegal. And on top of that, the incidents should be reported here, because it helps all of us to always know what the environment is at an airport, even if it is what we have come to typically expect. Ripping on him only deters people like him from posting their experiences, and then we are all less in-the-know.

The big problem is EWR, not the spotters that "should know better."

PhilDernerJr
11-28-2014, 11:29 AM
This is what makes me mad. Spotters around EWR have (whether knowingly or unknowingly) by their actions while shooting planes ("I go alone and lay low") have created a troubled relationship between hobbyists and authorities to the extent that I won't come up and shoot photos around EWR, even though it's perfectly legal activity.

I have some ideas on how to improve the spotting culture are EWR and will gladly share them.

Not to play chicken and the egg, but the police were abusing people's right to spot for a long time before anyone felt the need to do it on the down low. Legal or not, PANYNJ police and [I think] Elizabeth County Police have been hard on spotters, regardless of whether or not it is legal.

I'm open to ideas if you have them. I have a few ideas myself, but I think that they would be hard unless a LOT of us wanted to really work to change things there, but people just seem to prefer JFK better in terms of aircraft and spots maybe?

CathayA340
11-28-2014, 06:59 PM
First, regardless of your views, I wish some people were better at communicating with one another instead of namecalling. When we see incidents like this, even if it is frustrating to us, we still need to work together, or at least treat each other with respect. Offending posts will be moderated.

Though Bayswater has had its share of incidents (I myself have been detained there), there have been hundreds and hundreds of visits that people have had with NO issue whatsoever, so I consider the risk to be less. Also, when I was detained, the police were not as rude or aggressive as at EWR.

At EWR, it seems that the police are ALWAYS like that, that your chances of receiving that type of attention is EXPECTED almost EVERY time you go. Not the case at Bayswater.

If people have suggestions on the wording of the EWR guide on this site to emphasize its frequency of police encounters, I'd have no problem with that.

As for this thread, should the spotter have been shocked to receive that attention? Not at all. Also, I don't think the spotter was COMPLAINING, but just sharing his story. And we should encourage that instead of acting like he necessarily did something wrong or as though HE is the problem here.

He has a right to go and TRY to spot, as it is not illegal. And on top of that, the incidents should be reported here, because it helps all of us to always know what the environment is at an airport, even if it is what we have come to typically expect. Ripping on him only deters people like him from posting their experiences, and then we are all less in-the-know.

The big problem is EWR, not the spotters that "should know better."

A huge problem is just that the police/security at EWR abuse their power too much and make up their own rules when they get bored.
I expected to be seen plane spotting and getting a visit from a security car. And yes, I was just sharing what happened that day.
I won't be going back to EWR anyways though from now on. Seeing some of the comments on this thread really made me feel upset, and that
I did do something wrong. This hobby is getting a bit crazy and too dangerous for me. I'm starting to think differently about this hobby now and I don't know if I will continue doing so.

RWB
11-28-2014, 08:15 PM
A huge problem is just that the police/security at EWR abuse their power too much and make up their own rules when they get bored.
I expected to be seen plane spotting and getting a visit from a security car. And yes, I was just sharing what happened that day.
I won't be going back to EWR anyways though from now on. Seeing some of the comments on this thread really made me feel upset, and that
I did do something wrong...I'm starting to think differently about this hobby now and I don't know if I will continue doing so.
Why quit now? I feel that you were on the right track by writing letters and getting responses, http://nycaviation.com/forum/threads/47757-EWR-Spotting-Allowed-Now keep at it, be as courteous as you can be to them and the Officers you deal with. But don't give up and quit! 6-7 years ago it was the same down here, there are two other guys I'd see on occasion and they didn't want to try to make it better, didn't like to get hassled by APD, nothing wrong with that, I made it better for myself and others who might come out. Actually saw one of them a while back drive by Landmark then came back, stopped, rolled down window and got a shot thru the fence of some plane. If he's happy with that, I'll be happy for him while I walk to and shoot above the fence and on the ramp on occasion.

NIKV69
11-28-2014, 08:21 PM
A huge problem is just that the police/security at EWR abuse their power too much and make up their own rules when they get bored.
I expected to be seen plane spotting and getting a visit from a security car. And yes, I was just sharing what happened that day.
I won't be going back to EWR anyways though from now on. Seeing some of the comments on this thread really made me feel upset, and that
I did do something wrong. This hobby is getting a bit crazy and too dangerous for me. I'm starting to think differently about this hobby now and I don't know if I will continue doing so.

Sorry you feel this way but as you have learned EWR is a airport that you have to treat differently than others. I suggest you take some of the advice and you will be surprised. I know this forum can come across as standoffish but it's also a wealth of info. If you use it you will benefit.

Gintaras B.
11-28-2014, 08:21 PM
I'm open to ideas if you have them. I have a few ideas myself, but I think that they would be hard unless a LOT of us wanted to really work to change things there, but people just seem to prefer JFK better in terms of aircraft and spots maybe?

This past summer I've spotted with a spotter from MIA and he told me: "MIA wasn't always spotter friendly airport, but people just kept coming and coming...and one day some of authahorities started thinking: "well, maybe those guys aren't bad"...and things started to change"... And he told me: "That's what you guys here @ JFK(my note: EWR) should do"

Things would change if local media would cover more about this hobby - planespotting...Problem is not some of PD, but too many paranoid people who call PD if they see spotters.
PD should understand, that spotters are like extra security - which bad guy would want to do some bad things if they see a bunch of guys with cameras? Another thing is - you never know what you can get in a image frame...Most spotters if see anything suspicious - would give image to PD...I would.



I expected to be seen plane spotting and getting a visit from a security car. And yes, I was just sharing what happened that day.
I won't be going back to EWR anyways though from now on. Seeing some of the comments on this thread really made me feel upset, and that
I did do something wrong...I'm starting to think differently about this hobby now and I don't know if I will continue doing so.

Bad idea - "I expected to be seen plane spotting and getting a visit from a security car." And I do guess, some get kicked out of T5 because of similar reasons.
I agree with Nick about staying low at some spots - where we should not pretend like we're photographing some wedding reception...

CathayA340, don't need to dramatize your experience. Before you quit, maybe think again and you've to change something - it needs flexibility - where and how you spot at different locations.


Being questioned by the authorities and possible being
detained for a few minutes does not constitute danger!! Stop being so friggin dramatic!!

Gerard...what's worse for you: to be hand-cuffed, brought to a precinct and spend there a couple or more hours? or just asked to leave? Or asked to show your ID - I had to show my ID @ Costcos and Paneras maybe 4-5 times in one year period. Detained - it was not a few minutes(as you say...) but about 3hours - 1/2 hour on the street and more than 2 hrs - @ precinct....Well, being questioned by a couple of PD detectives - wasn't that bad as 1/2hr on Mott Ave with cops that some even didn't know what Federal Law is - way worse...I'm I dramatic?

Gerard
11-28-2014, 10:09 PM
Gerard...what's worse for you: to be hand-cuffed, brought to a precinct and spend there a couple or more hours? or just asked to leave? Or asked to show your ID - I had to show my ID @ Costcos and Paneras maybe 4-5 times in one year period. Detained - it was not a few minutes(as you say...) but about 3hours - 1/2 hour on the street and more than 2 hrs - @ precinct....Well, being questioned by a couple of PD detectives - wasn't that bad as 1/2hr on Mott Ave with cops that some even didn't know what Federal Law is - way worse...I'm I dramatic?

Actually i was referencing Cathay as being "dramatic" but.........
Curious, why do you think you are getting cuffed, detained, questioned?

Gintaras B.
11-29-2014, 01:01 AM
Curious, why do you think you are getting cuffed, detained, questioned?

WTF? Seriously...Are you still drunk after Thanksgiving or on some drugs...asking that?

moose135
11-29-2014, 01:24 AM
WTF? Seriously...Are you still drunk after Thanksgiving or on some drugs...asking that?

You said you were detained at Bayswater. I've been there hundreds of times, including earlier this week, and I've never had a problem. I don't know of anyone else personally who has had a problem, so why was it that you were detained?

CathayA340
11-29-2014, 07:06 AM
Why quit now? I feel that you were on the right track by writing letters and getting responses, http://nycaviation.com/forum/threads/47757-EWR-Spotting-Allowed-Now keep at it, be as courteous as you can be to them and the Officers you deal with. But don't give up and quit! 6-7 years ago it was the same down here, there are two other guys I'd see on occasion and they didn't want to try to make it better, didn't like to get hassled by APD, nothing wrong with that, I made it better for myself and others who might come out. Actually saw one of them a while back drive by Landmark then came back, stopped, rolled down window and got a shot thru the fence of some plane. If he's happy with that, I'll be happy for him while I walk to and shoot above the fence and on the ramp on occasion.

Thank you for the motivation. Even if I quit, in a week, I'll be back probably lol

CathayA340
11-29-2014, 07:07 AM
Sorry you feel this way but as you have learned EWR is a airport that you have to treat differently than others. I suggest you take some of the advice and you will be surprised. I know this forum can come across as standoffish but it's also a wealth of info. If you use it you will benefit.

Yeah, I'm never heading back there anymore. So different than JFK...

Gintaras B.
11-29-2014, 07:08 AM
You said you were detained at Bayswater. I've been there hundreds of times, including earlier this week, and I've never had a problem. I don't know of anyone else personally who has had a problem, so why was it that you were detained?

Moose...I was there many times too...before I been detained and after. I wasn't alone, there was another spotter and his friend who wasn't even spotting. so, 3 of us were brought to precinct on Mott Ave. Also, Phil said that he was detained there too...

CathayA340
11-29-2014, 07:10 AM
This past summer I've spotted with a spotter from MIA and he told me: "MIA wasn't always spotter friendly airport, but people just kept coming and coming...and one day some of authahorities started thinking: "well, maybe those guys aren't bad"...and things started to change"... And he told me: "That's what you guys here @ JFK(my note: EWR) should do"

Things would change if local media would cover more about this hobby - planespotting...Problem is not some of PD, but too many paranoid people who call PD if they see spotters.
PD should understand, that spotters are like extra security - which bad guy would want to do some bad things if they see a bunch of guys with cameras? Another thing is - you never know what you can get in a image frame...Most spotters if see anything suspicious - would give image to PD...I would.



Bad idea - "I expected to be seen plane spotting and getting a visit from a security car." And I do guess, some get kicked out of T5 because of similar reasons.
I agree with Nick about staying low at some spots - where we should not pretend like we're photographing some wedding reception...

CathayA340, don't need to dramatize your experience. Before you quit, maybe think again and you've to change something - it needs flexibility - where and how you spot at different locations.



Gerard...what's worse for you: to be hand-cuffed, brought to a precinct and spend there a couple or more hours? or just asked to leave? Or asked to show your ID - I had to show my ID @ Costcos and Paneras maybe 4-5 times in one year period. Detained - it was not a few minutes(as you say...) but about 3hours - 1/2 hour on the street and more than 2 hrs - @ precinct....Well, being questioned by a couple of PD detectives - wasn't that bad as 1/2hr on Mott Ave with cops that some even didn't know what Federal Law is - way worse...I'm I dramatic?

Gintaras, that is very true about the media. If more people knew, things would probably get better. But that would probably not even happen. Oh, why don't we have airport watch programs? :confused:
And sorry for being too dramatic as well.

moose135
11-29-2014, 07:49 AM
Gintaras, that is very true about the media. If more people knew, things would probably get better. But that would probably not even happen.
For the most part, the general public wouldn't care, as it doesn't effect them, after all, we're just a bunch of nuts standing out in the cold taking pictures - just ask Al Roker... For those who paid any attention, a number would probably agree that we are doing something suspicious and should be told to leave. There won't be some massive groundswell of public opinion in our favor that will force the police at and around EWR to change their behavior.


Oh, why don't we have airport watch programs? :confused:
Because the Port Authority has repeatedly refused any offers to create such a program in New York.

eric8669
11-29-2014, 09:03 AM
Moose...I was there many times too...before I been detained and after. I wasn't alone, there was another spotter and his friend who wasn't even spotting. so, 3 of us were brought to precinct on Mott Ave. Also, Phil said that he was detained there too...

the incident Phil is referring to I believe happened almost 10 years ago.

CathayA340
11-29-2014, 09:15 AM
For the most part, the general public wouldn't care, as it doesn't effect them, after all, we're just a bunch of nuts standing out in the cold taking pictures - just ask Al Roker... For those who paid any attention, a number would probably agree that we are doing something suspicious and should be told to leave. There won't be some massive groundswell of public opinion in our favor that will force the police at and around EWR to change their behavior.


Because the Port Authority has repeatedly refused any offers to create such a program in New York.

That's right...oh well. We tried, we failed, we can't do anything about it. Port Authority stinks :wink:

skyteam18
11-29-2014, 10:37 AM
Sorry you feel this way but as you have learned EWR is a airport that you have to treat differently than others.

I'm amazed the Port Authority and local police uses different security protocol depending which airport under their jurisdiction you happen to be spotting. This inconsistently reflects poorly on the law enforcement and port authorities ability to "patrol and control" their properties with integrity.

Phil: what about a google-hangout where we can brainstorm ways to improve the spotting experience at EWR? I don't want to and don't think any spotters should feel they have to have to "go alone and lay low" when venturing over to EWR to shoot.

Gerard
11-29-2014, 11:43 AM
WTF? Seriously...Are you still drunk after Thanksgiving or on some drugs...asking that?

No and no and why cant I ask?
Moose asked and you didn't besmirch or tarnish his fine reputation. :biggrin:

Gerard
11-29-2014, 12:44 PM
WTF? Seriously...Are you still drunk after Thanksgiving or on some drugs...asking that?

And BTW, as that noted sage Curly Howard once said "I resemble that remark"!!!!

NIKV69
11-29-2014, 01:25 PM
the incident Phil is referring to I believe happened almost 10 years ago.

More than that I think. Art was there too. Right after 9/11. I remember couple of years ago we were asked to leave when AF1 was inbound. Not a big deal the cop was a bit of an idiot but we just went to Inwood. Police there were much nicer.

PhilDernerJr
11-29-2014, 05:55 PM
Yeah, it could have been just under or just over a decade there. Also, the cops were really cool about it compared to the level of aggression typically seen in the EWR area.

Again, if anyone has suggestions on how the wording for the spotting guides should go me let me know.

CathayA340
11-29-2014, 06:27 PM
Yeah, it could have been just under or just over a decade there. Also, the cops were really cool about it compared to the level of aggression typically seen in the EWR area.

Again, if anyone has suggestions on how the wording for the spotting guides should go me let me know.

I would love to help with the spotting guides. I think I contacted someone a while ago about a spot at EWR that is on [REMOVED BY MODERATOR]. You can email me at nycplanespotting1 (at) gmail (dot) com.
And for the EWR description, I personally think it should sound a bit more dangerous :P

PhilDernerJr
11-29-2014, 08:12 PM
I agree with an earlier poster that the word "dangerous" is misleading.

Personally, I have no intention of adding ANOTHER location for EWR, with the experiences mentioned in this thread. I was even considering removing the EWR location and replacing it with text that suggests that people don't do it, or that there aren't any public locations that offer low risk of removal by authorities.

gonzalu
11-29-2014, 09:24 PM
Gintaras, that is very true about the media. If more people knew, things would probably get better. But that would probably not even happen. Oh, why don't we have airport watch programs? :confused:
And sorry for being too dramatic as well.

As the wise old Yoda once said: "Don't think, Do!"

Why don't [you] start an airport watch program? If you sit around waiting for someone to do it, you may have to wait all your life. Maybe you can help the community to get it done!

The program in Florida (MIA) was the result of hard work by the local spotter community there together with a responsive management team at the airport. While we have a very solid and willing community here, the other party has't been so cooperative unfortunately.

NIKV69
11-29-2014, 10:15 PM
I agree with an earlier poster that the word "dangerous" is misleading.

Personally, I have no intention of adding ANOTHER location for EWR, with the experiences mentioned in this thread. I was even considering removing the EWR location and replacing it with text that suggests that people don't do it, or that there aren't any public locations that offer low risk of removal by authorities.

EWR needs to handled a certain way and that is with asking advice via PM not in a public forum and listening to people that have spotted there. Knowing how to spot and when can lead to a productive spotting session.


As the wise old Yoda once said: "Don't think, Do!"

Why don't [you] start an airport watch program? If you sit around waiting for someone to do it, you may have to wait all your life. Maybe you can help the community to get it done!

The program in Florida (MIA) was the result of hard work by the local spotter community there together with a responsive management team at the airport. While we have a very solid and willing community here, the other party has't been so cooperative unfortunately.

Port Authority is a far cry from the people who run the grounds at MIA. Maybe with some time and better interaction we can coexist a little better and get some spotting at EWR

Gintaras B.
11-29-2014, 11:00 PM
As the wise old Yoda once said: "Don't think, Do!"

Why don't [you] start an airport watch program? If you sit around waiting for someone to do it, you may have to wait all your life. Maybe you can help the community to get it done!

The program in Florida (MIA) was the result of hard work by the local spotter community there together with a responsive management team at the airport. While we have a very solid and willing community here, the other party has't been so cooperative unfortunately.

Why Manny never gets in such situation? Because Manny is like a Figaro:

"Figaro! Here I am.
O me, Figaro! Here I am.
Figaro here, Figaro there,
Figaro up, Figaro down,"

http://youtu.be/t20fvLO_RXo

Len90
11-29-2014, 11:53 PM
Instead of us all arguing and getting heated about the issue, why don't we step up and try to get some changes. I for one have no problem typing up a letter and emailing the PA of NY/NJ some ideas and question them. Using examples of MIA and how they have a group that provides some extra eyes on the airport FOR FREE can only help.

After all what's the worst that can happen. The PA responds back with a no or completely blows off the email. At least we can all say we tried to be the change.

Mateo
11-30-2014, 01:12 AM
I would love to help with the spotting guides. I think I contacted someone a while ago about a spot at [REMOVED BY MODERATOR] You can email me at nycplanespotting1 (at) gmail (dot) com.
And for the EWR description, I personally think it should sound a bit more dangerous :PIs that location private property? If it is, then best not to advertise it.

gonzalu
11-30-2014, 07:20 AM
Gintaras, I have paid my dues with LEO. But then again, I am an old man with too much experience in common sense situations. Think about it this way. You go to the zoo, you go to the lion's cage. You put your hand inside the cage to give lions some candy? Doubt it.

Rinse, repeat.

PhilDernerJr
11-30-2014, 09:30 AM
Instead of us all arguing and getting heated about the issue, why don't we step up and try to get some changes. I for one have no problem typing up a letter and emailing the PA of NY/NJ some ideas and question them. Using examples of MIA and how they have a group that provides some extra eyes on the airport FOR FREE can only help.

After all what's the worst that can happen. The PA responds back with a no or completely blows off the email. At least we can all say we tried to be the change.

If anyone wants to write letters or perform any idea that comes up, I will get behind almost any of it and contribute to that. Know that in the past, I've tried a lot, speaking with airport managers and PANYNJ executives (even giving speeches at public meetings), even becoming friends with some. I have actually had meeting with some in airport management (not at EWR, mind you) about an Airport Watch idea, and even when a couple of them could almost kinda see the benefit, it is killed by red tape because of how large the organization is (they own a half dozen airports), or others in the group that disagree shoot it down.

Keep in mind that "Airport Watch" here in NYC means something different than what we are used to, and is a program that already exists. So a new name would be needed.

Also keep in mind that someone in management at EWR is specifically anti-spotting, having stating that they feel that planespotting is something that they NEED to deter.

If anyone wants to task me with stuff, I'll do it. If someone else wants to do it, I'll follow that and help as I can.

NIKV69
11-30-2014, 10:18 AM
Is that location private property? If it is, then best not to advertise it.

I was shocked when I saw that too. More shocked that the post was allowed to remain. I don't understand how in this delicate situation a spot that is instant trouble is discussed openly in a public forum. It just boggles my mind. Where is the leadership?

PhilDernerJr
11-30-2014, 11:05 AM
Nick, you're saying that you think that post should be removed? If no one else is condoning the situation, and others are actually saying it shouldn't be used, what rule would the person be violating to warrant its removal? I don't see the issue.

Also, instead of having looked at it, been of that view and later complaining "where's the leadership" you are welcome to have reported the post with a suggestion of action or rule for action in such a situation.

NIKV69
11-30-2014, 11:23 AM
Nick, you're saying that you think that post should be removed? If no one else is condoning the situation, and others are actually saying it shouldn't be used, what rule would the person be violating to warrant its removal? I don't see the issue.

Also, instead of having looked at it, been of that view and later complaining "where's the leadership" you are welcome to have reported the post with a suggestion of action or rule for action in such a situation.

I think discussing a very high security, delicate, private property spot at an airfield already tough to shoot at in a public forum irresponsible. I am sure I am not alone in this sentiment. It's not a question of whether the post breaks a rule or doesn't break a rule. I thought we are trying to make EWR a little more spotter friendly.

This post goes counter to that. Being the owner of a site that local spotters congregate and where out of towners look for info I would think you would want discussion of spots that are not open to the public kept private, which is just common sense.

Leave the post. It doesn't matter to me. I spot at EWR with no problem when I go. As the de facto site of the area spotters I just expected some better judgement from the person who runs it.

PhilDernerJr
11-30-2014, 12:10 PM
Well I'm flattered you expect so much of me, but keep in mind that this is a community and I truly NEED everyone's help to make things the way that others desire. I am not all knowing and not all seeing.

With two people having suggested it, I have removed the address portion of the posts that mentioned it. When I first read it, it didn't seem to be a big deal because I couldn't imagine anyone seeing that on the 4th page of this discussion without reading others saying that wasn't a good idea on ALL the pages, and then doing it anyway.

But again, I need people's input, preferably something that shows us working together as opposed to taking the easy way out and saying I am doing a ****ty job as if I am falling short of what I'm paid to do or was voted into office for.

CathayA340
11-30-2014, 06:34 PM
I agree with an earlier poster that the word "dangerous" is misleading.

Personally, I have no intention of adding ANOTHER location for EWR, with the experiences mentioned in this thread. I was even considering removing the EWR location and replacing it with text that suggests that people don't do it, or that there aren't any public locations that offer low risk of removal by authorities.

Ok, that is true. That's actually not too bad of an idea.

CathayA340
11-30-2014, 06:35 PM
As the wise old Yoda once said: "Don't think, Do!"

Why don't [you] start an airport watch program? If you sit around waiting for someone to do it, you may have to wait all your life. Maybe you can help the community to get it done!

The program in Florida (MIA) was the result of hard work by the local spotter community there together with a responsive management team at the airport. While we have a very solid and willing community here, the other party has't been so cooperative unfortunately.

I send emails to PANYNJ about the cops, but I recently mentioned the airport watch program. Let's see what they'll respond with soon...

Gerard
12-01-2014, 10:35 PM
I send emails to PANYNJ about the cops, but I recently mentioned the airport watch program. Let's see what they'll respond with soon...

Yes that should be interesting!! :eek:

skyteam18
12-02-2014, 09:51 AM
How in the name of God do I know? I don't work for for Port Authority. It's always been a high security spot and contrary to your assumptions, not caused by spotters behaving a certain way. If you have nothing to do for 2 hours google it and you will see for the last 12 years spotters around the world have had issues there, no matter how they behaved. So before you keep insulting us with your conspiracy theories, research these things before you type your statements.

And an apology wouldn't be a bad idea since you basically insulted a lot of guys who have been shooting planes for a long time there.

I apologize for calling a big group of members here "spineless." I have never shot at EWR (except for the occasional cellphone snap from the terminal/inside an aircraft.) I do not have first hand experience plane spotting outside the fence at EWR and therefore do speak from ignorance on the matter.

I would like to thank a member on this site who graciously filled me in quite extensively about the recent spotting culture found at EWR. What I gathered is EWR offers no PUBLIC areas where spotters can pursue their hobby. All publicly known spotting areas around EWR are publicly-accessible but are on Private Property: IKEA, PANYNJ Property, etc. This presents a Catch-22 for hobbyists who wish to shoot from these public areas.

The rights of the hobbyists do NOT exist on these publicly accessible private properties. Newark's Airport Manager has stated to the public that it is in the duties of The Port Authority at Newark Liberty to discourage aviation enthusiast activities and reserves the right to stop hobbyist activities from taking place on their property.

As for IKEA: What language does the IKEA manager(s) use remove Aviation Enthusiasts? Loitering? Tresspassing? or No Plane Spotting?

The local police outside and around EWR is a whole other topic I won't touch today.

While many of us will simply turn a blind eye to the state of affairs in Newark (mainly because Newark is so second rate to JFK, not to mention it's all the way over there in Jersey), we can't forget that Newark stands in stark contrast to the type of airportenvironment we frequently enjoy. If the bottom issue at EWR is the PANYNJ's dislike for aviation enthusiaststs, the spotting community should be offering up a resistance to this mentality. Otherwise we leave a SHINING EXAMPLE of an airport that HATES SPOTTERS. The threat is then very real this mentality against hobbyists can spread out to other airports (BDL) around the country following EWR's example.

It'll be a sad day when the airport manager at EWR becomes best buds with the "New Airport Manager" at JFK (or INSERT YOUR HOMETOWN AIRPORT HERE), should that day come.

CathayA340
12-02-2014, 09:16 PM
Yes that should be interesting!! :eek:

Do you think it would be any good to start a petition online for creating some program?
PANY needs proof...

CathayA340
12-02-2014, 09:19 PM
Let me know what you think and what should be edited. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/nyc-airport-watch

NIKV69
12-03-2014, 12:32 AM
Do you think it would be any good to start a petition online for creating some program?
PANY needs proof...

No, PANYNJ doesn't feel civilians should help them do their job. Using a confrontational tactic won't help.

skyteam18
12-03-2014, 12:20 PM
Let me know what you think and what should be edited. http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/nyc-airport-watch

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but I think you're asking a bit too much. The outcome we're wanting is to be left alone so we can enjoy our hobby without bothersome interruptions. Suggesting a Watch Program only masquerades the real reason we want to be at the airport. -- Yes, providing an extra set of eyes that will be watching for suspicious activity/unsafe operations is a benefit to having an active spotting community. But it's not the reason we go to shoot.

This is a battle of changing the mentality of the authorities. The benefits of an active spotting community (IMO) far outweigh the disadvantages. -- The only disadvantages that come to mind (assuming we are within our legal rights > not trespassing, etc) are "causing concern in the public eye" which is total bullsh*t because that is a problem of perception and the public should be the ones educated on the matter, not the spotters.

CathayA340
12-03-2014, 06:22 PM
I'm not trying to rain on your parade but I think you're asking a bit too much. The outcome we're wanting is to be left alone so we can enjoy our hobby without bothersome interruptions. Suggesting a Watch Program only masquerades the real reason we want to be at the airport. -- Yes, providing an extra set of eyes that will be watching for suspicious activity/unsafe operations is a benefit to having an active spotting community. But it's not the reason we go to shoot.

This is a battle of changing the mentality of the authorities. The benefits of an active spotting community (IMO) far outweigh the disadvantages. -- The only disadvantages that come to mind (assuming we are within our legal rights > not trespassing, etc) are "causing concern in the public eye" which is total bullsh*t because that is a problem of perception and the public should be the ones educated on the matter, not the spotters.

Ok, thanks. I'll take it down.

megatop412
12-03-2014, 08:10 PM
Newark is so second rate to JFK, not to mention it's all the way over there in Jersey

Dude, EWR rules. When was the last time JFK saw a Tu-204???

Again a thread about EWR inflames tensions. We are a community of plane spotters here. Yes EWR needs to be handled with care but I disagree it should be avoided. Just use common sense out there and don't be an ass when the police do show up. Be professional and courteous, and represent our hobby with grace and pride. All EWR area cops get free 8x10's from me to have tangible 'evidence' they can investigate. I have yet to give any away, however, because I use my head out there.

Delta777LR
12-04-2014, 11:30 PM
Wow just seeing this is stunning. I was talking to a few guys about this incident recently and when I heard about this, I go back to the time some of us had their SD cards confiscated in 2010 at EWR. Normally I don't waste my time at EWR unless something rare would show but yes I have been kicked out at Ikea as well back in 2003 but I had found a nice spot in Newark that is off airport and I was able to shoot there without any problems and lasted at least 2 hours there. It's about playing smart. EWR has always been an issue for along time. And not to mention that we cannot tell anyone not to spot at EWR or where ever. The same kind of incident can happen else where like LGA even. It all depends who u deal with. I remembered back in 2009 that I actually got detained at Planeview park by PAPD and they have gave me a hard time. CathayA340 thinking of giving up your hobby is not the answer but it's your choice but you have been told about this many times about how EWR is. Many of us have spotted at EWR for years and know what how it goes. That's why you should take our advices more. Don't take it the wrong way, I'm not offending anyone but sometimes it's a way of learning.

Zee71
12-05-2014, 06:06 AM
Well stated Sergio!

markg
12-15-2014, 05:14 PM
Port Authority is a far cry from the people who run the grounds at MIA. Maybe with some time and better interaction we can coexist a little better and get some spotting at EWR

What have you been smoking Nik?!?! The cops at EWR don't want interaction, they just want to run us out!"

markg
12-15-2014, 05:21 PM
[QUOTE=skyteam18;505136]As for IKEA: What language does the IKEA manager(s) use remove Aviation Enthusiasts? Loitering? Tresspassing? or No Plane Spotting?

The local police outside and around EWR is a whole other topic I won't touch today.

QUOTE]

You answered your own question, in a way. It's not the manager at IKEA who is the problem. It's the private security firm employed by whoever owns the land that IKEA/Toys R Us sits on, along with Elizabeth PD that are the problem. It's obviously the NJ mentality that what they say goes.

markg
12-15-2014, 05:38 PM
OK, here's my view. I go to EWR I drive through, get what numbers I want and then leave mostly. On occasions I'll park in a parking lot with a good view of proceedings and don't have a problem. Occasionally the security firm that patrols that lot will kick me out. Only once have the police come through. That time, he didn't get out of his car, just asked if I was checking the aircraft out and when I responded yes, he told me don't stay too long.

Teterboro is very frustrating. Even though they are public roads you get run out, usually by Moonachie PD in their black unmarked Dodge Chargers or occasionally by PAPD. The problem is they make up the rules as they go along, the latest onebeing that you can't park and watch planes anywhere around the airport. But apart from Redneck Ave, there are not any no parking/stopping signs anywhere around the perimeter.

CathayA340
12-17-2014, 05:09 PM
OK, here's my view. I go to EWR I drive through, get what numbers I want and then leave mostly. On occasions I'll park in a parking lot with a good view of proceedings and don't have a problem. Occasionally the security firm that patrols that lot will kick me out. Only once have the police come through. That time, he didn't get out of his car, just asked if I was checking the aircraft out and when I responded yes, he told me don't stay too long.

Teterboro is very frustrating. Even though they are public roads you get run out, usually by Moonachie PD in their black unmarked Dodge Chargers or occasionally by PAPD. The problem is they make up the rules as they go along, the latest onebeing that you can't park and watch planes anywhere around the airport. But apart from Redneck Ave, there are not any no parking/stopping signs anywhere around the perimeter.

The thing I do is take video with a tripod outside the car so it's a bit risky for me...anyways, I'm not going back there from now on.