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View Full Version : Newark P4 roof level - 10/5/13



Landing Lights
10-08-2013, 09:52 AM
I was pleasantly surprised here. A small group of us headed up there for a few shots after leaving Family day. Within 2 minutes after we arrived there, a routine security patrol drove up onto that level...and drove right past us. They did a few more sweeps up and down the aisles before disappearing without saying a word to us. In total we stayed up there for about 30-45 minutes with no problems.

Disclaimer: The experience shared here was on the day of a public event at Newark. There may or may not have been an amount of leniency offered by security to enthusiasts/photographers because of this event. Newark has historically been generally unfriendly towards spotters, and this experience should not be taken to mean that this environment has changed.

Delta777LR
10-08-2013, 10:05 AM
that was blessed Ben!! I wish it can stay that way

lijk604
10-08-2013, 11:25 AM
...so in other words...nothing happened...no need to post anything.

Posts like this push some people to be brave, then they complain when something happens.
Simply put, I'm sure security knew that it was Airport Day, and they were more lenient than they would normally be.

Heck I even took a few shots from my car to the elevator and back. There were still some families looking at the field from the garage.

Sorry Ben, but no need to post up and make a big deal out of nothing.

Landing Lights
10-08-2013, 11:47 AM
Sorry Ben, but no need to post up and make a big deal out of nothing.

No intention of making a big deal about this, but I feel that good experiences should be shared as well as bad ones here. Airport/Family day may have had something to do with this, though I'm not as sure as you seem to be about that. my purpose here is simply to start a data set for this particular location. That being said, I can see your point about the brave ones, so I have edited the original post.

steve1840
10-08-2013, 12:01 PM
Starting a data set for this location? Thats just a disguised way of saying you encourage the visiting of that particular location. Ther is a reason that EWR doesn't regularly get discussed on the forums. Because it is a NO GO location.

All this does, as stated above is make people get ballsy and make newbies think its ok to go to EWR.

Landing Lights
10-08-2013, 12:19 PM
Starting a data set for this location? Thats just a disguised way of saying you encourage the visiting of that particular location. Ther is a reason that EWR doesn't regularly get discussed on the forums. Because it is a NO GO location.

All this does, as stated above is make people get ballsy and make newbies think its ok to go to EWR.

I'm of the opinion that from on airport property and in appropriate locations, EWR may not be a no go any more given the recent changes to PANYNJ rules. The only way to find out is to actually go there and spot and hope for the best and to report back either way. THAT is the reason for starting the data set. This is not a location that will see a ton of use given its cost on a normal day, however it may be viable for those special visitors that we don't see very often. I see no reason to hide information good or bad from anybody in this community whether they've been spotting for 10 minutes or 10 years. I had a good experience here on this particular date and time, however it is no guarantee that anybody else ever will in the future.

wunaladreamin
10-08-2013, 12:56 PM
Does the data set have anything to do with the busses at LGA?

steve1840
10-08-2013, 01:55 PM
This is not a location that will see a ton of use given its cost on a normal day, however it may be viable for those special visitors that we don't see very often. I see no reason to hide information good or bad from anybody in this community whether they've been spotting for 10 minutes or 10 years. I had a good experience here on this particular date and time, however it is no guarantee that anybody else ever will in the future.

Ther have been many lengthy discussions about this topic on the forums. If a special visitor comes in people use the dash and grab method or pop up right at the time they need to to get the visitor. Going to EWR has never been encouraged and call it what YOU want, saying that this may be viable for special visitors is still for all intents and purposes encouraging words. Same with stating that on that particular date and time you had a good experience. If someone like a certain (younger) member that posted about being hell bent on spotting at EWR in the past were to see this, they would be overly excited that EWR is a spotter friendly airport now, and go, and likely get in trouble. And say all you want that you put a disclaimer on here, but that person repeatedly didn't head words of people who had been spotting much much longer than him, so why would they read a disclaimer?

Roush6NY
10-08-2013, 02:09 PM
Sorry but there is NO point to this post. I get you are trying to share your experience, but again, all this is going to do is open up another HUGE can of worms about spotting at EWR and as Steve stated above, there is a reason why NO ONE talks about anything that has to do with EWR on the forums and here you are talking about spotting on the property on top of it all. Smart! Lets give new ideas to people about a place everyone stays away from and let it generate from a post that started on NYCA! Real nice ...

Zee71
10-08-2013, 04:43 PM
EWR is taboo, I don't have any desire to go there.

wunaladreamin
10-08-2013, 06:01 PM
EWR in and of itself is a suicide spot. I know one person who shall not be named, who made front page news and had a lengthy court battle as a result of spotting there.

NIKV69
10-08-2013, 07:49 PM
I said when people started shooting from the parking garages at JFK that this would happen. I am not saying you should not try and shoot from them but there are dos and don'ts. One don't is never post about them in a public forum. I was never one to subscribe to the "Never go to EWR" but this post does not help the situation. One thing I never understood is why people in this hobby feel compelled to always run home and start pounding a keyboard about things like this.

Some things are better handled via email and PM.

As for the EWR thing I don't we should not try to shoot there. Just use some common sense about it. Posting about it in a public forum does not accomplish this.

Landing Lights
10-08-2013, 07:55 PM
And say all you want that you put a disclaimer on here, but that person repeatedly didn't head words of people who had been spotting much much longer than him, so why would they read a disclaimer?

That individual obviously lacked the maturity and decision making skills needed to make informed choices. Nothing anybody here said was going to sway them one way or the other. Their mind was made up before they arrived here.

I stand by everything I have said thus far. Plain and simple, the rules have changed at all of the Port Authority airports, and to me, that means that it is worthwhile to see just how they plan to react to these changes. If we refuse to spot at a particular airport due to past experiences from before the rules changed, then the work that was put in to getting those changes made by Phil and others is for naught. Spot there or don't spot there, it is your choice, however this is NYCAviation and to treat one of the major NYC airports as a place that is too taboo to even discuss our experiences with is irresponsible and does nothing to encourage or discourage casual visitors who come here seeking guidance from going there.

Now for those who think that this whole thread is pointless, I present the following from the Letter to Public Readers that is stickied to the top of this forum:

This is the place for all of us to share our experiences with local law enforcement while enjoying the hobby of aviation enthusiasm. Whether the experience posted here are positive or negative, it is important for us to discuss these occurences in order to promote awareness to both sides of the encounters and make both our hobby and enforcing the law an easier process for everyone involved.

We also do our best to ensure honesty and accuracy in these posts, regardless of how brutal that truth might be.

I had a positive experience here, at an airport that is not known for positive experiences. It does not mean that others will have the same experience that I had. It also doesn't mean that we should be planning the EWR planespotting meetup for next October with 100 planespotters from around the country. But to say that sharing a positive experience is a bad thing simply because of where it happened is just plain foolish.

wunaladreamin
10-08-2013, 08:18 PM
The rules have NOT changed. And that's because these theoretical rules NEVER existed publicly. The issue is this new flock we have here seem to feel entitlement to do spot however and wherever they see fit without again using consequential thinking in regards. This is not a direction we as a group should be taking.

Landing Lights
10-08-2013, 08:39 PM
Of course the rules have changed. Just because they have chosen not to make them public for whatever reason does not change the fact that they know what the rules are now and that we know what the rules are now. These are rules that were just confirmed to me last week by somebody inside of the Port Authority. They may not be publishing them, but they sure aren't hiding them either.

And I would tread very carefully with your generalizations regarding the "new flock". Grouping everybody who hasn't been planespotting for several years together and then bashing that group is definitely not the direction that this group should ever be taking. I joined this community because of how accepting it was towards those looking to enter the hobby. Some here seem to have lost that level of acceptance lately. And that's a damn shame.

Roush6NY
10-08-2013, 08:40 PM
"Those" new comers seem not to have the same respect as they should towards the group or the site. Now that's a shame! Stop being on a one track mind and just listen to what some of the older members have to say, that is how it's done, not putting your foot down and blowing off the advice you are given. When I joined this site, I sat back, listened, watched and learned in every way possible and gained my respect, wouldn't dare to come on here and run my mouth. This is what I personally have been seeing my self lately with some new members, wanting to just take control and acting like they know it all.

NIKV69
10-08-2013, 08:42 PM
I had a positive experience here, at an airport that is not known for positive experiences. It does not mean that others will have the same experience that I had. It also doesn't mean that we should be planning the EWR planespotting meetup for next October with 100 planespotters from around the country. But to say that sharing a positive experience is a bad thing simply because of where it happened is just plain foolish.

I have had many positive experiences at EWR long before you came along. I accomplished this by using my head and not posting about them in a public forum.


The rules have NOT changed. And that's because these theoretical rules NEVER existed publicly. The issue is this new flock we have here seem to feel entitlement to do spot however and wherever they see fit without again using consequential thinking in regards. This is not a direction we as a group should be taking.

Very good point.

lijk604
10-08-2013, 09:20 PM
And I would tread very carefully with your generalizations regarding the "new flock". Grouping everybody who hasn't been planespotting for several years together and then bashing that group is definitely not the direction that this group should ever be taking. I joined this community because of how accepting it was towards those looking to enter the hobby. Some here seem to have lost that level of acceptance lately. And that's a damn shame.

Ben, when I joined this group way back when, I looked to guys like Nick, Eric & Moose (as they were the guys I saw most) I listened to what they had to say and learned what were the "hot" places to do a grab and run, WITH that being the only expectation. Pull up, shoot your shot, and move on. You can dig through the archives to find stories of people who took liberties with info that should not have been made public and we lost some good locations.

The "new flock" here seem to take everything people say and only hear what they want, that you can get a shot wherever you are, and get pissed and complain when the police pull up and ID check them. Phil has done some amazing work to try and get the Port to understand us, however, the security teams still do not get it. Is T5 a decent spot? Well, if you like to pay through the nose for parking and taking heat hazed shots in the middle of the day, fine. Honestly, if I see that T5 was the only spot to shoot, I'll stay home. I'd rather shoot at Bayswater, Costco or the Mounds where a group can get together hang, shoot the ****, and have a bunch of laughs.

This thread is getting way off topic, but Phil has spent many years building NYCA into a well respected site, and the lack of respect from some of the "new flock" is damaging all that he has done.

threeholerglory
10-08-2013, 10:12 PM
First of all, any time Nick V gets involved in a thread, you must know that it just got real. I can't help but echo what everyone else has already said, but with the addition that along with a small group of other members, I was "victimized" (as you call it) by Port Authority. There were no rules prohibiting our hobby then, and there are none now (as I understand it, thanks to Phil's amazing work). You can read all about that incident in the other forums. The difference with our experience, was that we all chose to learn and grow with the community's guidance. And that guidance came from the experience and wisdom (sorry if that makes you feel old guys) of people like Nick, Eric, and Moose, along with several others. Some of the members I was with have moved on with their lives, and others have continued to spot very humbly. ALL of us learned a huge lesson in DISCRETION. Since the topic of discretion obviously hasn't resonated with some members, I'll draw some parallels.

1. Just because you CAN drink a 750mL of vodka on your own, doesn't mean you should. Odds are, your liver will suffer, and you may lose lots of friends.
2. Just because you CAN be naked in public in Vermont, doesn't mean you should exploit that and start dry humping things. I need not continue.

I hope you get the point. Just because the rules say you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. I don't mean that in the sense to say DON'T spot at EWR, but DO exorcise proper judgement and discretion by NOT posting about it in a public forum. That point has been made, and beaten to a pulp. Anyone here who has seen in the forums and various other publications what Phil has achieved in working with the various authorities for our hobby KNOWS that he has done incredible work. However, I feel that VERY few of us can truly APPRECIATE the work that he has done, unless you've been working directly with him on those efforts. I for one, can't claim to appreciate his work in the truest sense. Let's cut the entitlement crap, learn some respect for the people who have been through it all before (regardless of new rules or old rules), and make the community a better place.

PhilDernerJr
10-08-2013, 10:24 PM
There will always be debate on whether certain locations should or shouldn't be discussed in a public setting. And that is a fine debate.

Personally, I am surprised at the tone at which some people are approaching this particular topic. We can express our views without being rude to kind, fellow spotters. There is a nicer way to approach things when you disagree.

For me personally, EWR is a terrible place, and we have nothing to really lose there. So since Port has finally been willing to admit that there is no rule against photography, I'd have no problem testing that a little bit (still not enough to make me want to enter NEW JERSEY, but that's another topic). So if someone does want to test those waters in a location that isn't bad news and has a good experience...then the Spotter Blotter is exactly for that.

Some may feel that is still shouldn't be posted. But again, it's not like doing so is going to ruin this great location that people have been enjoying on the low all this time (or have they? PM me if so).

Ultimately, we are all in this together. We should be approaching our disagreements in a more friendly manner.

wunaladreamin
10-08-2013, 10:44 PM
Of course the rules have changed. Just because they have chosen not to make them public for whatever reason does not change the fact that they know what the rules are now and that we know what the rules are now. These are rules that were just confirmed to me last week by somebody inside of the Port Authority. They may not be publishing them, but they sure aren't hiding them either.

And I would tread very carefully with your generalizations regarding the "new flock". Grouping everybody who hasn't been planespotting for several years together and then bashing that group is definitely not the direction that this group should ever be taking. I joined this community because of how accepting it was towards those looking to enter the hobby. Some here seem to have lost that level of acceptance lately. And that's a damn shame.
What rules?!?! You have a buddy who has a law degree and allegedly specializes in research. Find me the old rules and find me these new rules.

Tread lightly? Is that supposed to be a threat Ben? Because I'm not one to stand for that crap. I'm not out to bash anyone but what some of the new folks here need to do is check their ego at the door and realize that many MANY sacrifices were made in paving the way for the new guys in regards to ease of spotting. NOBODY IS ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. GET OFF OF YOUR HIGH HORSE KIDDO.

i joined this community for many of the same reasons as the majority. And like that majority I kept my mouth shut, my eyes and ears open, paid some of my own dues in regards to LEOs, and I still try to help the next generation as I was helped along the way. I went out each and every time with no sense of entitlement, with no made up "rules" folded away in my pocket, puffing my chest out and expecting everyone else to back off. If you want to earn the respect of many of us, I suggest you follow suit. Otherwise whatever ends up in your signature like some others here will only be an empty title.

Tread lightly lol most of us have more time in the urinal than you have in the field.

Jared Blech
10-08-2013, 10:56 PM
Sorry for the long essay.
I'M BEING COMPLETELY NEUTRAL ON THIS ONE. I would like to try and share my thoughts on valid points from BOTH SIDES OF THIS DEBATE. Both sides have their fair and notable points, and are both well stated.

Just my two cents, MY PERCEPTION, of what I think has been going on lately on the site. Many of you have met me, and I'm so new here, it's very difficult for me to interpret what has happened in the past so I do not and will not have any opinion on the past. I am aware that things like this happen in communities like this, arguing will occur occasionally, people will have small grudges on one another, and different opinions will be defended. But at the end of the day, I personally believe a lot of us are all here because we love Aviation. Whether it be helicopters, heavy airliners, or general aviation...photographing them, flying them, or just sitting back, taking in the smells, sights, and sounds... I think most of us have some sort of passion for things that fly. Again, I'm pretty new and I enjoy being friendly with everyone here, most of the people here are extremely kind and helping. I would just like to state that even if I agree with someone's statement, it doesn't mean anything but, that they make a valid point. I agree and disagree with various points from both sides.

Ben mentioned earlier
"I joined this community because of how accepting it was towards those looking to enter the hobby. Some here seem to have lost that level of acceptance lately".

I have to agree with him on this, In January of this year I went to Cosco for the first time for about 6 hours, that was one of the best experiences of my life still to this day. I never really got the chance to just sit and realize how amazing these machines were because of the fact that I never knew that spotting was an actual thing until NYCAviation. In march, I finally decided to create an account and posted a few images from my backyard that day, nothing but compliments and warm welcomes. Thats why I came to NYCA. Nothing but kindness and friendliness from all. I gazed at usernames that i've recognized from A.net, "legends", with over a thousand photos in the Database, and I was getting advice and tips from these guys... These were the people who inspired me to pursue aviation and to further indulge myself into learning aviation photography. From what I've seen Since joining and becoming an active member, things have gotten a little sour between members, again I'm sure it happened before i came here, (not disregarding the fact it happened just because I wasn't here to see it), but some members have kind of been pushing newbies away, Not necessarily me, but in general. (IMO)

Kenny also states a valid and well stated point,
"The rules have NOT changed. And that's because these theoretical rules NEVER existed publicly. The issue is this new flock we have here seem to feel entitlement to do spot however and wherever they see fit without again using consequential thinking in regards. This is not a direction we as a group should be taking".

Although Phil has made some incredible steps for all of us, and we thank him greatly, the fact of the matter is, IMO, The rules only changes when everybody is informed...Security, police, and other agencies we encounter while spotting. Yes, the PANYNJ legal department may know about who we are and what we do, but unless the information is shared with Allied barton, PA cops, etc... The "rule" is basically the same.

As I'm writing this, there have been several posts just put up, I just think as phil said, we have nothing to lose at EWR. I rarely ever go through NJ... I don't need to, but just use good judgement... From what I've been told from older members, cosco and the mounds used to be cold to spotters on occasion, but just last week (UN week), there were about 30 or so at cosco and the mounds both days. When I spot at the mounds now... It's like the soccer players are so used to us... they don't even turn their heads, I'll take that any day. Be smart out there and remember what we all came to this site for.

Lastly, I would like to take the time to thank some members who helped and inspired me. Manny inspired me to pursue AVphotography, I can't thank him enough. And all others like Cary, Don... He's like a second "planespotting father" to me, helping me along the winding road of life in general, Kenny, also thank him a lot for coming over to me on a crowded Jones beach and making me feel like one of the guys. Ben, Sergio, Mark, Akie, Kaz, Phil, Eric and so many others... Thank you all so much for the guidance and help with both editing , shooting or just life in general. I hope theres years to come!

wunaladreamin
10-08-2013, 11:04 PM
Jared, you're a good egg bro and it's been a pleasure to get to know you. Knowing that the proverbial torch is being passed to people like you will mean the hobby as it has been to me will live on.

Jared Blech
10-08-2013, 11:10 PM
Jared, you're a good egg bro and it's been a pleasure to get to know you. Knowing that the proverbial torch is being passed to people like you will mean the hobby as it has been to me will live on.

Thanks ken, means a lot coming from you. Hope to see you out there soon.

As for any new member reading this post right now, who don't have an account and are reading this publicly. If you're thinking about wanting to join us in this wonderful journey called plane spotting, come right along. Argument is part of human nature and without argument, everything would be the same, nothing would ever change. So sometimes a good little debate has some pro's as it reveals certain issues or points that you may have not thought about.

This Thread is not what NYCA is all about... It's about friendship, and passion all for the same thing. Don't be hesitant to join because of one forum debate you read. As long as you follow the posting guidelines, and follow advice from veteran's, you will turn out just fine. Look at me, Only been here since march and my first A.net acceptance in April... I've already got 25 pictures on A.net. Not too shnabby for a 16 year old kid with very loving parents who take me spotting all the time! thanks mom and dad if you ever stumble across this!

Aviation.High.Guy
10-08-2013, 11:27 PM
Jared- I would like to echo Kenny's post in that it's great to see "new blood" like you joining the hobby and Aviation in general. I know you'll soar high in the years to come.

Aviation.High.Guy
10-08-2013, 11:29 PM
Now if I could only get my kid off Minecraft and out to the field with me some time... :eek:

wunaladreamin
10-08-2013, 11:31 PM
Now if I could only get my kid off Minecraft and out to the field with me some time... :eek:
I'm too busy playing Temple Run 2 to find out what Minecraft is lol.

Jared Blech
10-08-2013, 11:37 PM
Now if I could only get my kid off Minecraft and out to the field with me some time... :eek:

Whats wrong with me??? I'm like the aviation blooded son you've always wanted!

PhilDernerJr
10-08-2013, 11:38 PM
This passive aggressive internet bull is getting old. I read this thread and I want to gouge out my own eyeballs.

I'll try to type as simple and direct on this as possible.

This "debate" has nothing to do with EWR. This is because some people have a negative feeling toward a person and subsequently toward those that are kind toward this person. You all know it. If it were purely about how spotting locations were addressed and not about other personal differences, I know you folks wouldn't be speaking like that toward each other.

I don't want to play the "who me, he, she" finger pointing. We have a large crowd. Larger than ever before. Not everyone is going to like everyone. Conflict also isn't new in the NYC spotting community. I've just never seen it grow or materialize like this.

I dare either side to stop for a second and think that regardless of how you may feel, we are all in this to have fun and to take a step toward peacefully expressing your issues with other people in an honest, friendly manner, with the intent to be find a peaceful resolution as adults. Maybe in private, or wherever, a simply "Dude...I gotta say, I feel that sometimes you act like 'this' and it upsets me," is all it would take to start a peaceful dialogue and work to at least co-exist. Even in the end...you don't have to like everyone. But we're all here.

I regret not voicing my thoughts sooner toward to address the situation both internally and externally at NYCA, so I am to blame and am guilty as well. I'm sorry for that.

For now, I am going to be at some bar in Queens on October 29th at 7pm (I'll pick a spot as it gets closer), starting off by myself. If any of you guys on either "side" want to join me and talk about it over a beer or 5, be adults and hash it all out, then I would love nothing more. The forums, Twitter...I'm just tired of it. This stuff is public...is anyone else embarrassed by it? I sure am.

This garbage going on lately isn't what we are about, and every single one of us, myself included, is better than that. And you folks complained about Speedbird messing up the forums? $hit.

moose135
10-08-2013, 11:53 PM
I think most of us have some sort of passion for things that fly.
Me? I'm here for the women...
;-)

Hope to get to spot with you next time I'm in NY, Jared.

Jared Blech
10-09-2013, 12:21 AM
LOL thanks MoUse. Tell me when you come up... The only problem is jericho is a long walk to jfk... I could try to run but uk... I kid, But my parents usually are very good to me so ill most likely have a ride...

As to what Phil said. We were so intolerable about Speedbird1, who we realized is an older gentleman, who just tried what we all failed to do... Talk about our passion and love for flying machines, instead we were so involved in personal battles that we turned this into a place to just insult people publicly. I think we should like phil said, have a gathering... I'm going to have to miss the bar one as i am a designated drive ;) and it would be no fun for me. but how bout a classic NYCA Spotting outing... like i used to hear the old timers talk about...

Idlewild
10-09-2013, 01:48 AM
Being an "old-timer", I must say seeing the reaction to the OP boggles my mind. It does seem like yesterday when a young spotter, such as myself, could easily glide anywhere throughout the major three and shoot pics to the heart's content. As well as approach airline personnel and pilots, and ask for PR stuff such as postcards, wings, pins, cups and even a sit-down in the cockpits of parked aircraft. All of which never aroused suspicion or a Q&A by law enforcement. I have lived where fellow spotters and myself would trade info and stories visiting other airports; especially EWR since it was so out of the way and they were a base for a slew of CL-44Fs and World Airways, to chastising people for posting about spotting at EWR. I know times have changed. Spotting at the major three changed 16 years before 9/11 when the Pan Am Rooftop had an 8ft (from my perspective) chicken wire installed around the perimeter in 1984, thus, ruining the aesthetic of spotting. That we have to sneak around and not report some of what we do within airport boundaries really is sad and makes me think the terrorists have successfully changed our lives so much that basic plane-spotting is looked at as suspicious and almost deviant. Very ironic considering the NYC area is a landmark in history for a lot of commercial aviation. Something else that seems to have been abandoned and not really cared about in this town. All of this nonsense is just incredible to me. But, like I keep hearing "9/11 has changed the world". End of my incoherent rant.

NIKV69
10-09-2013, 06:54 AM
This "debate" has nothing to do with EWR.

I think it does. If we were talking about JFK this wouldn't be happening. Though I think we should not post about any private property shooting. Even if PA is tolerating it. We still have to coexist with people who want to hassle us. Whether right or wrong and IMO less said publicly the better.

OP may actually have a point that EWR may be getting a little more tolerant. Though the day may have had something to do with it I think posting about shooting at that location was irresponsible. I think it's better handled in house and not published so outsiders can get wrong idea and set us back by flocking to these spots right away. As we have seen as time passes things slowly change but it does also need some common sense. Many valid points have been made here.

I don't think EWR should be considered a no go. You just have to treat it differently than LGA or JFK and do it in doses. If you want it to be accessible in the future.

Fighting_falcon_51
10-09-2013, 08:55 AM
Jared, I would just like to say you deserve a medal for what you just posted.

Just like you I am a "youngin" and I joined this site when I was 13. Since then I have met people and had experiences that people could only hope for in a lifetime. This website has had an influence on me all throughout high school and now in college (although the school work is overwhelming and spotting has been on the back burner for a little bit) and I honestly hope you have the same experience here as I did.

As far as the "new comers" go, I understand we all go through the phase of "oh crap, I shouldn't have said that" or "oh, crap I shouldn't have done that." But once you are corrected multiple times there really aren't many excuses.

NYCA is like a second family to most of us and it is open to anyone who wants to genuinely join, but once you start bringing us down and start the "family" things usually do not end well.

That's my two cents anyway.

Delta777LR
10-09-2013, 09:04 AM
Jared- Although we were there to talk you down with a lot of info on AVspotting and editing etc, but I gotta admitted to you my friend, you are totaly incredible. And I give you an A plus on that post..

wunaladreamin
10-09-2013, 10:12 AM
I think it does. If we were talking about JFK this wouldn't be happening. Though I think we should not post about any private property shooting. Even if PA is tolerating it. We still have to coexist with people who want to hassle us. Whether right or wrong and IMO less said publicly the better.

OP may actually have a point that EWR may be getting a little more tolerant. Though the day may have had something to do with it I think posting about shooting at that location was irresponsible. I think it's better handled in house and not published so outsiders can get wrong idea and set us back by flocking to these spots right away. As we have seen as time passes things slowly change but it does also need some common sense. Many valid points have been made here.

I don't think EWR should be considered a no go. You just have to treat it differently than LGA or JFK and do it in doses. If you want it to be accessible in the future.
My sentiments exactly in this thread as it was in another tread in this forum. That is until I was told to "tread carefully." I don't think a get together is good at this point. There is at least one person who should not share a room with me. The best thing for me to do is join the list of old timers who have migrated away from the site altogether. It is becoming a struggle to sit by and watch something I enjoyed get tarnished by a few with apparently no recourse (and that so were crystal clear does not pertain to all the newbies as my words yet again have been twisted to say). If anyone who doesn't have my info wants to keep in touch shoot me a pm.

PhilDernerJr
10-09-2013, 10:26 AM
Sorry, Kenny. I think it's time we all man up and put our garbage aside to come together. If at that point we see it doesn't work, then we can at least move forward knowing we tried and have some sort of way to interact to avoid each other. But this internet stuff that's been going on is for the dogs.

MarkLawrence
10-09-2013, 11:51 AM
Holy moly guys!! As the old saying goes - can we just get along????

This is from an outsider that has visited NY a few times over the years and has had nothing but incredible interaction with everybody there. That being said, there have always been issues with Port Authority and Law Enforcement as a whole there. I remember having to produce my Florida drivers licence at the Mounds only to be asked by the certain LEO "You came here to do this for the weekend". I am lucky, down here in Florida, we don't have that sort of attitude from LE or the airports - heck - in Miami, there is a group that meets with MIA people all the time (the Deputy Director all the way down to security) to see how we can best do our hobby and help them in any way. At our airports, LE comes out and joins us.

What am I trying to say? Well, it all comes down to common sense - and - use that as your guide. Our hobby lives on that precarious line in a lot of places around the country/world - a lot of them it is tolerated more than other places, but, as I say, it comes down to common sense (of course Kenny never uses his wearing shorts in 34 degree weather on a very cold Sunday morning - no - I will NEVER let you forget that one man!!).

And - yes - I need another trip up there soon! At least I entertain some people - right Nick V?????

wunaladreamin
10-09-2013, 12:10 PM
Sorry, Kenny. I think it's time we all man up and put our garbage aside to come together. If at that point we see it doesn't work, then we can at least move forward knowing we tried and have some sort of way to interact to avoid each other. But this internet stuff that's been going on is for the dogs.
I'm going to move forward Phil. Don't worry about that.

Quality > quantity.

Have a good one guys.

NIKV69
10-09-2013, 04:33 PM
And - yes - I need another trip up there soon! At least I entertain some people - right Nick V?????

You bet Mark! You epitomize the fun there is to be had. Shooting and then dinner with a beer. I hope you either come up or I come down soon.


Sorry, Kenny. I think it's time we all man up and put our garbage aside to come together. If at that point we see it doesn't work, then we can at least move forward knowing we tried and have some sort of way to interact to avoid each other. But this internet stuff that's been going on is for the dogs.

I have to say I think the moderating or lack thereof has more to do with this. We see way to many low quality threads, flamebait and off topic stuff. Without moderation it just goes downhill fast. I also believe threads containing posts about shooting anywhere but public property should be handled better. Even if PA is tolerant. In the long run it's better for everyone involved if this is discussed privately.

megatop412
10-09-2013, 08:03 PM
Now what in the hell happened here, Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick this issue is like the textbook definition of the Streisand Effect. I like the posts about using common sense but people have to realize the wide degree of interpretation people have with that. Nobody had to sign their name in blood to join this group, and it is a free country. If someone wants to ruin their day by being too visible @ EWR and then having to deal with the PA, let 'em have at it. Everyone keeps saying 'all the work that Phil's done could be jeopardized' and I joined the chorus of thank-yous to him for everything he has done, but really, did anything that Phil did make things even the slightest bit easier for us AT EWR? No, and on top of that, we're all screaming at each other like a bunch of rat bastards. If you are an 'old timer' here, you should know that you can't make the horse drink, all you can do is lead them to the water. Remember the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If you're new here and don't want to listen to people that know better, why are you here instead of out there showing everyone how much you don't need NYCA. Don't bitch when no one responds to your threads. There is nothing to 'lose' at Newark Int'l. I was there 2 months ago to grab the damn ecojet and no one slammed me about it. And even if they did, so effin what, life is full of decisions you do the best you can with. It's when you're careless with those decisions that real problems occur. Phil I would love to come down to schmooze and drink that Tuesday but I have to take a rain check so I don't piss my new boss off, you're right, the internet really sucks sometimes.

Jared Blech
10-09-2013, 10:47 PM
Nick, I do agree about the low quality threads, but I just think we should just stop pointing fingers, putting blame on whom or what. It's really a shame on how this turned out, and so sad to see this happen to such a special and talented group of people like us. I mean, this used to be or (Still is) a site where one could really feel like family, now its just a website full of personal-based posts about jealousy, and ego's.

Can't we all just try to remember how much fun chasing a special is... the rush of being out there waiting for a good catch to come in. I really believe we can recover some of the magic that the site had back in its heyday if some of the Old timers posted a spotting review... I don't think I've seen Cary, Kaz, or some of the other well-respected spotters post a review in ...like...ever since I've been here. Not calling anybody out, saying...Why don't you post!? or saying that they are the problem, because they are clearly not. I just feel like if I saw Cary, or the other guys I've only heard about, post some from their outing... it would give young spotters like me some motivation... At leasts thats what I was driven by when I started. One day I would look at some of these A.net shots from the past and go, "wow, I wanna do that!". I really don't think anybody here would not enjoy some classic Aviation Art from some of the Oldies...

Lastly, I really love what NYCA has done... It has made me a more sociable person in general... Being in this day in age, with all the scares about children be "taken" and "stranger danger", I will admit I was nervous about meeting some guy 20-30 years older than me... in the middle of a field. Especially off the internet, to do what most people call "weird and crazy". So I really encourage other young spotters to come forward (as long as they feel comfortable) to go spotting so we can carry the hobby in a positive direction that the founding fathers pointed it in.

Have a good night everybody.

NIKV69
10-10-2013, 04:45 AM
Nick, I do agree about the low quality threads, but I just think we should just stop pointing fingers, putting blame on whom or what. It's really a shame on how this turned out, and so sad to see this happen to such a special and talented group of people like us. I mean, this used to be or (Still is) a site where one could really feel like family, now its just a website full of personal-based posts about jealousy, and ego's.



That is what life is though. Emotions like jealousy are going to be prevalent anywhere and much more so behind the safety of the keyboard. Just because you are at NYCAV doesn't mean things will turn into the Garden of Eden where everyone loves each other. I am afraid you are asking a bit too much.

This is why sites have moderators. So everyone can use the forums and not be subjected to it time and time again. I know Phil tries but the forum here has been like the wild west for a long time. Mostly anything goes and most threads like this one degenerate rather quickly. It is what it is and like Kenny some have just chosen to not post or limit what they post. In a way I think it's better because some things need to be said whether it's good or bad.

kc2aqg
10-10-2013, 11:40 AM
I'm not getting reeled into this $hitshow of a thread, the only thing I wanted to post was around quality of threads and moderating. Some of you seem to forget that we lost a major contributor to NYCA this year, one who both brought balance to forum discussions as well as moderating. I'd just ask that you guys give Phil and the team a break on that one, there's probably still some stuff to be figured out on that front. Not making excuses, just ask you not to point fingers as it's definitely contributing to the adversarial tone.

PhilDernerJr
10-10-2013, 04:22 PM
If this is the wild west, I'd hate to see your description of what Anet, JP, FlyerTalk or 90% of other aviation forums are like. Not that we are perfect, of course.

There are areas of the site that took a beating since Matt died, of which some are still trying to recover. To be honest, forum moderation was one area that Matt kept away from because he had so much other stuff on his plate. The forums have been my realm since day one.

As I've always said...if something needs moderating...please report the post (as many do), because there are things we will miss. If there is a new rule that you feel we need, I am always all ears. In fact, most people have no idea how much moderating DOES go on here...it is constant.

I can also only moderate if someone violates a rule (double topics, personal attacks, and all the other things we have outlined in our rules). I can't go nuts on a member because someone doesn't like another person, and not because someone doesn't like a topic. I can't delete a thread because people think some EWR spots shouldn't be talked about. There is no clear and direct security issue.

Think Ben should not post about EWR spots? Then say so nicely or sit down to talk about your concerns. I'm sure there is a compromise. Ben's one of the nicest people around...if he's not friendly or approachable enough...then who is?

Don't like Jason? Then go have a man to man with him. If by chance he doesn't respond as you'd like, then you can block him here and ignore him in person and you won't have that problem anymore. I am sure he would be equally relieved. Or maybe you two would find there was a misunderstanding and that you can all play nice. Crazier things have happened.

But those two things are not forum moderator issues, until people start arguing about it or casting personal attacks here. I can moderate all day, but that's not going to make people feel better in person. Ultimately, these are social issues, not forum issues. No rules were violated i n this thread.

I find it ironic because I know if I did do something like delete this topic, the same person that says it is wild west will then say we are censoring people. I only see one person in this thread complaining about the management of the forums itself. I find great irony in it because this person has the audacity to complain, yet contribute nothing to the community by not only not offering a suggestion on a new rule or solution, but by refusing to offer direct examples of what it is they are complaining about (save for Speedbrd1). This is also the same person who talks about how terrible the forums have been for so long, and yet the only times there have been tremendous flame wars, he is always the active participant, most often the one that starting fights with people, complaining and contributing absolutely zilch. It's like the arsonist complaining that there are too many fires. My personal opinion is that maybe I am too soft on here, because I would have banned you a long time ago, Nick.

Bring on the complaints! I do love them and I do get them! But help me help you instead of just b*itching.

"Low quality threads" have been the result of one member, unless there is something people haven't been telling me. That person has received much leniency because he MEANS well and is someone that we do interact with in person. He is a kind man and we have spent a long time trying to correct his behavior so that he can use NYCA to practice his passion for aviation because not everyone has many other options. Call me a softie but it would kill me to deny people a way that they really want to practice their passion. I'm sorry it wasn't solved sooner, but we have found a new solution just recently that we feel will control the problem, which we still implementing. For those whose experiences have been affected by Speedbird1's posts, my apologies. I can definitely take that the blame on that one.

Otherwise...what exactly is it that people want me to do in this current situation? Anyone? Seriously...because there's little I can do or can think of, because I can't stop people from going to EWR and I can't make people like other people any more or less in real life.

If we have personal beefs, let's meet up and talk about it. If you don't want to, then I'll drink by myself at the bar on the 29th.

NIKV69
10-10-2013, 05:02 PM
If this is the wild west, I'd hate to see your description of what Anet, JP, FlyerTalk or 90% of other aviation forums are like. Not that we are perfect, of course

JP and Flyertalk forums are really not much to speak of. As much as people love to malign anet they do a great job of moderating considering the traffic they get. They delete low quality and flambait stuff rather quickly and things don't degenerate and go off topic as they do here.


There are areas of the site that took a beating since Matt died, of which some are still trying to recover. To be honest, forum moderation was one area that Matt kept away from because he had so much other stuff on his plate. The forums have been my realm since day one.

Bringing Matt into this discussion was really unfair. His tragic death and absence have nothing to do with this. The forums were the same as they were then as they are now. It's a mindset of being passive with low quality, off topic and flamebait stuff. Matt had nothing to do with that. Andy should have not done this.


I can also only moderate if someone violates a rule (double topics, personal attacks, and all the other things we have outlined in our rules). I can't go nuts on a member because someone doesn't like another person, and not because someone doesn't like a topic. I can't delete a thread because people think some EWR spots shouldn't be talked about. There is no clear and direct security issue.

You can delete low quality posts. Not to mention names but we know of some that post threads that have been discussed to death, or can be answered with a simple search constantly. It's those threads that degenerate quick. As for posting about spotting locations I disagree. Any parking garage or lot (private property) is sensitive and EWR is super sensitive. Though I applaud the fact someone was able to shoot at EWR without hassle running home to post about it is not a smart move. All we need is someone we don't know to go there and do whatever and it could be an issue. It's still an uphill climb to be able to shoot in the NY metro area after 9/11. Things have gotten much better but we should still be smart.


Think Ben should not post about EWR spots? Then say so nicely or sit down to talk about your concerns. I'm sure there is a compromise. Ben's one of the nicest people around...if he's not friendly or approachable enough...then who is?

Don't like Jason? Then go have a man to man with him. If by chance he doesn't respond as you'd like, then you can block him here and ignore him in person and you won't have that problem anymore. I am sure he would be equally relieved. Or maybe you two would find there was a misunderstanding and that you can all play nice. Crazier things have happened.

I don't know either person but my posts in this thread have been respectful toward everyone.


contributing absolutely zilch.

I have no desire to be part of this site officially which you know already Phil. It's nothing personal I just don't need to be part of a small website to spot in the NY area. All I ask is that the ones that do act responsibly so we don't have another situation like the JFK cargo area. This forum is public domain and I post how I see it. You can stop throwing the past in my face, I have rarely posted here in ions and if you want to ban me go right ahead. Part of the reason for these situations here is certain people on this site take themselves way too seriously.


If we have personal beefs, let's meet up and talk about it. If you don't want to, then I'll drink by myself at the bar on the 29th.

I don't have personal beefs with anyone here. We all have our circles and certain friends in the hobby. If someone has beef with me I could really care less. It is what it is, only thing I have asked to is be responsible because spotting in NY is for everyone. Not just people affiliated with this site.

Gerard
10-10-2013, 05:31 PM
. For those whose experiences have been affected by Speedbird1's posts, my apologies. I can definitely take that the blame on that one.


Wow, if someones experiences have been effected by Speedbird1s posts then they have more problems that we have time to discuss on this board!! :tongue:
And what exactly is considered a"low quality" thread/post? Because one or two people dont like it? Hey, pearls of wisdom sure aint dropping out of everyones mouth here when they post but they still have the right to
voice their opinion or start a topic unless it violates the rules of the board!! I've read many that dont interest me but I sure dont need to censor them or say it should be deleted because I dont like it. I just move on!!
The beauty of this board is that it gives people a voice they might not necessarily have anywhere else!!
And complaining about "Off Topic" posts? Last I saw there is an "Off Topic" forum on this site!!:rolleyes:
In the immortal words of the late Rodney King "Cant we all just get along"?

megatop412
10-10-2013, 06:40 PM
I don't get it. I just don't get it- Nick you have complained throughout this thread about the site, how it is run, other members on it- you seem to care very much about a site you claim you don't want anything to do with. I've been here as long as you have and you have MORE posts than I do(I had to step out to deal with personal issues for a couple years), so you have in fact been an active member here. Do you or do you not want to step up and actually HELP the site succeed, or do you just want to be someone who's always there to point out what you don't like? You do more damage being as contentious as you are than Speedbird has been with his threads! I should hope he doesn't read this one, because there's no reason someone with a passion for aviation and ZERO ill-will should be made to feel like a fool. Gee, let's pick on the older guy interacting with the internet, that's never been done before(Phil I'm glad you found some kind of potential resolution for him to interact with the site). That crap needs to be left at the door to high school graduation.

It isn't like The Fugitive Part II is going to begin with at EWR. We should be used to this by now and ready to just deal with it. There won't be a massive push all of a sudden by the cops to get us to stop, they don't even have the money to successfully police the city against gangs of bikers on the west side highway. If Phil feels that someone's post risks exposing something truly sensitive, I have every faith he will delete it, and I believe it because of how he handled a previous member for doing this.

In the end(and here comes my epic nihilistic rant), nothing really matters. Bills, marriage, school, workouts, jobs, illness, fights, sex, food, awards, kids, new lenses, it don't matter, none of it does. We run around like a bunch of rats, looking for pieces of cheese, only to eventually succumb to nothingness. SO MAKE IT COUNT for Pete's sake and TRY to devote as little time as possible to this foolish bickering. The clock is ticking, so spend time with your gal, drink a good scotch, play with your kids, play your music loud(at the right times), and go be with airplanes. I myself plan to have one of you roll me into Jamaica Bay after I take my last breath, hopefully I live long enough to see what the damn 797 will look like

Jared Blech
10-11-2013, 12:48 AM
I don't get it. I just don't get it- Nick you have complained throughout this thread about the site, how it is run, other members on it- you seem to care very much about a site you claim you don't want anything to do with. I've been here as long as you have and you have MORE posts than I do(I had to step out to deal with personal issues for a couple years), so you have in fact been an active member here. Do you or do you not want to step up and actually HELP the site succeed, or do you just want to be someone who's always there to point out what you don't like? You do more damage being as contentious as you are than Speedbird has been with his threads! I should hope he doesn't read this one, because there's no reason someone with a passion for aviation and ZERO ill-will should be made to feel like a fool. Gee, let's pick on the older guy interacting with the internet, that's never been done before(Phil I'm glad you found some kind of potential resolution for him to interact with the site). That crap needs to be left at the door to high school graduation.

It isn't like The Fugitive Part II is going to begin with at EWR. We should be used to this by now and ready to just deal with it. There won't be a massive push all of a sudden by the cops to get us to stop, they don't even have the money to successfully police the city against gangs of bikers on the west side highway. If Phil feels that someone's post risks exposing something truly sensitive, I have every faith he will delete it, and I believe it because of how he handled a previous member for doing this.

In the end(and here comes my epic nihilistic rant), nothing really matters. Bills, marriage, school, workouts, jobs, illness, fights, sex, food, awards, kids, new lenses, it don't matter, none of it does. We run around like a bunch of rats, looking for pieces of cheese, only to eventually succumb to nothingness. SO MAKE IT COUNT for Pete's sake and TRY to devote as little time as possible to this foolish bickering. The clock is ticking, so spend time with your gal, drink a good scotch, play with your kids, play your music loud(at the right times), and go be with airplanes. I myself plan to have one of you roll me into Jamaica Bay after I take my last breath, hopefully I live long enough to see what the damn 797 will look like

Well said william. I think that wraps it up. What could anybody possibly say to top that. Keep calm and planespot.

Delta777LR
10-11-2013, 01:42 AM
Let me be simple, reading all of this whole thing just got me shocked. I see alot of rights and wrongs here but it's all w/e. Yes the true thing is that not all of us will get along, some will some wont. In my experience I love all of us here, i dont dislike anyone here at all, and without the help from Kenny and Nick and a few older spotters in the past, I would not have gotten as good with my photography as I am now. And I was even happy to help a few new comers out myself with editing and spotting. I do try to get along with everyone here and like Jared said before this is family of spotters, we spot together, we hang out drink, eat etc. I mean i do see a few points about EWR, anyone can ask Mike Scuderi, Roman, Mark Hsuing about the 2010 incident when we had our SD cards confiscated by PAPD, However Phil busted his @ss getting our cards back and things were solved and still I am very thankful for that. EWR is not the best to shoot at but when it comes to that, you really gotta use your head. some of us has been there.. Instead of continuing to debate more and more on this thread lets just drop it and just continue to spot and hope for the good to come in the future.

Speedbird1
10-11-2013, 05:52 AM
I must add my 2 cents. This exact same thing happened about a decade ago on the JFKTower.com site. So many posters got banned (not myself) for insulting others that the moderator, Dave, finally changed the rules. He started charging all members to post. After that, a big change was seen. Offending members just disappeared. I would hate for members to be charged, but maybe that would end harrassment. Don't jump on me for this suggestion; I am just relating what Dave did when posters kept insulting each other.

Derf
10-11-2013, 05:59 AM
and that is what tanked JFK TOWER! I was a member but would not pay fees, nor will I for Anet or any other site. I feel my contribution is positive enough and if I am not wanted, I will not pay for a site.

Speedbird1
10-11-2013, 09:19 AM
This thread is about EWR spotting. As an old-timer and to change the subject, I once was allowed on the tarmac of EWR. I was then obsessed with the "People Express" B744. After pestering the ticket agent, she finally had a guy escort me to the aircraft, which was an ex-Alitalia, and take photos all around and under the aircraft. This must have been in the 80's. I think the aircraft flew out of Gatwick. And please guys, all we have is each other; families and co-workers cannot understand why we spend our time spotting aircraft. Let's stop hurting others' feelings; if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing. I myself have put several members in my ignore list as they think the sun rises and sets around them. Those who feel my posts are nonsense, please do the same, I will not care. We are all in the same boat. Finally, maybe the thread where we post publicly our encounters with law enforcement should be eliminated as it seems to cause so much strife. Let's return this site to the best on the Internet !

PhilDernerJr
10-11-2013, 10:58 AM
Though we have no plans to do so on the forums, NYCA will never prevent people from enjoying this site because they don't have or don't want to pay money.

We may end up with some pay features, but there will be ways for users to be able to get those features without giving money.

mirrodie
10-11-2013, 08:50 PM
As a former mod on Anet who banned at least one individual here who I would claim a friend, (while vacationing in Perth, Australia, mind you), I'll call BS. Moderating NYCA, there is a COMPLETELY different culture here.

On Anet, from the inside, we'd log in and cull deletions that were suggested by users, worldwide. Here, suggestions for deletion get emailed to us. But they are few and far between. Whats more, we are a tighter knit community and as such, I feel that in person, we show a restrained persona, whereas in front of screens, a certain kind of guttural primate lashing comes through.

having been on both sides of the fence, I would respectfully disagree. On Anet, some people push the envelope and then feign cultural misunderstanding. Here, I feel y'all post to see what you can get away with, knowing that within 6 months, [b]you'll likely see someone you called out 6 months ago and play nice[b/].....

Yeah, I said it....

So be cool. Matt is testament to the fact that life is short. I truly feel that as long as we keep it real, we're always above over sites.

Idlewild
10-11-2013, 10:41 PM
I'm curious, Speedbird1, were you a regular spotter at JFK (the rooftop) back in the early '80s? Have I already asked you this question?

NIKV69
10-12-2013, 01:51 AM
Whats more, we are a tighter knit community and as such, I feel that in person, we show a restrained persona, whereas in front of screens, a certain kind of guttural primate lashing comes through.


That is true of any message board.


having been on both sides of the fence, I would respectfully disagree. On Anet, some people push the envelope and then feign cultural misunderstanding. Here, I feel y'all post to see what you can get away with, knowing that within 6 months, [b]you'll likely see someone you called out 6 months ago and play nice[b/]..

Well that is just decorum. As for this post I think the users who took issue with the post had a valid point. There was no police encounter and the spot at that airport is something to be careful with. From there it went south. Standard stuff for threads of this nature for a number of reasons.

I also can't for the life of me understand how you call me a friend yet use every thread like this to brag how you banned me. It's ok, maybe you can also tell us how anet fired you from being a mod? Tit for tat is fair play.

PhilDernerJr
10-12-2013, 07:54 AM
Since this topic has gone so off topic, with no useful conversation taking place anymore, I am going to lock it up.