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PhilDernerJr
08-17-2013, 03:18 PM
Not all good news though.

After speaking at a public PANYNJ board meeting and communicating for months with the PANYNJ and being told that they would make a revised, public rule to share for us to have about photography on airport property, they have changed their minds about making it public. But, the rule is there and it says we are good to go, as we always were.

How they intend to have a rule that they expect people to follow without making it public is beyond me.

But I was assured, and showed the "internal" rules that state that photography around and in airport property is allowed with the exception of obviously sensitive areas like security checkpoints, or specific locations at determined by lessees.

When receiving complaints, Port will usually reply with the following (this is a direct quote from a Port official that I was given permission to share):


On behalf of The Port Authority of NY & NJ, please accept my apology for your inconvenience. Generally speaking, there is no policy prohibiting photography in public areas of the airport, although restrictions exist within certain areas, such as security checkpoints. Airport employees are trained to watch for suspicious activity, and it appears in this case that an employee may have overstepped their authority in an effort to help provide a more secure airport environment.

So for now, this is all that we have to go by in terms of actual rules.

Moving forward I will urge anyone who is asked to leave a location for taking photos in a place that seems as though it is allowed based on the above, to file a formal complaint. PANYNJ doesn't realize how often this is happening, or the complaints are not climbing high enough up the ladder. I will take care of that.

[UPDATED 8/19/13] The best way to file a complaint is to go to http://www.panynj.gov/feedback/ and use the feedback form. Because the actual "comments" box is limited to 250 characters, I recommend you first write a full account of your encounter in a new Spotter Blotter thread here on the forums, and then on the PANYNJ comment box, briefly summarize it, and provide a direct link to your forum thread's statement.

Always remember that what is posted on the forum is PUBLIC and will be read by people...this includes your replies. ALSO keep in mind that the feedback form can be used to report GOOD encounters too! Let's give the guards and officers credit when they are treating us right!

Thanks, guys.

Jared Blech
08-17-2013, 03:38 PM
Thanks Phil!

wunaladreamin
08-17-2013, 04:34 PM
This should be stickied. It's the port's responsibility as the creators of their own code to make sure all of their LEO's are on the same page in regards to knowledge of and enforcement of said codes. They are most certainly dropping the ball in this regard. Thanks for your advocacy always Phil.

moose135
08-17-2013, 04:34 PM
Thanks for all your work on this, Phil!

Aviation.High.Guy
08-17-2013, 07:52 PM
Thank you Phil. We are another step closer to hassle free spotting at the fields.

captmjk16
08-18-2013, 12:22 AM
Thanks for all your hard work Phil! Hopefully I'll have a few new spots to enjoy next time I'm in the NYC area now!

Delta777LR
08-18-2013, 12:43 AM
does that mean that FJC is still gonna make up their policy while spotting from T5? what about when people would take photos of the planes while in the terminals? are we still gonna have those to say that I cant take pictures?

clear_prop
08-18-2013, 12:50 AM
Since they don't want to make the rule public, would a FOIA request work to get it?

/IANAL

jerslice
08-18-2013, 01:45 AM
photography around and in airport property is allowed with the exception of obviously sensitive areas like security checkpoints
It's also allowed at security checkpoints, provided you're not interfering with the process.

Zee71
08-18-2013, 06:56 AM
Phil .... Thanks for your effort. The proof will be in the pudding especially at Newark Liberty Airport.

yankees368
08-18-2013, 09:22 AM
Now can we do something about lowering the cost of the T5 garage?

Delta777LR
08-18-2013, 10:14 AM
Now can we do something about lowering the cost of the T5 garage?

I doubt that will happen

Zee71
08-18-2013, 10:21 AM
To lower the costs at T5 ... park off the field and that the Air Train to T5

gonzalu
08-18-2013, 04:02 PM
Thank you Phil and all that have worked hard to maintain our rights to photograph aircraft in their natural environment. I definitely appreciate all the sacrifices and efforts those before me have made and endured.

threeholerglory
08-18-2013, 05:44 PM
this is fantastic...thanks so much Phil!

yankees368
08-18-2013, 06:05 PM
It will be very interesting to see how the new security company behaves once FJC departs in the near future

steve1840
08-18-2013, 06:23 PM
Phil, as always your hard work and dedication shows no bounds. Thank you so much for all you do for this aviation community.

Jared Blech
08-19-2013, 09:08 AM
As Jason pointed out...FJC's contract is set to run out, that being said, I'm also very interested in who they hire and how they treat us!

PhilDernerJr
08-19-2013, 09:15 AM
I do not think our treatment of occasionally getting kicked out of places that are usually ok (ie: Terminal 5) will end as a result of their internal document. I see it as our tool for what to do when that does happen...which I am still working on in determining the best complaint-filing process.

There will always be airport employees, passengers or some sort of people that are just clueless about what we do, so I don't think our "resistance" will every truly end, but I think knowing this information helps and we can keep working in baby steps with this massive organization that not only own 6 airports, but also bridges and pretty massive properties. If JFK were run by a company that did nothing other than run JFK, I think everything would be much, much easier for us and our hobby.

Once I have all of that info about complaint-filing here, then I will sticky this thread. I was holding off on this but after a recent incident I wanted to provide an update.

Landing Lights
08-19-2013, 09:30 AM
does that mean that FJC is still gonna make up their policy while spotting from T5?

You mean the handwritten pages of "rules" Sergio?

In all seriousness this is great news, and although it isn't perfect yet, it is a major step in the right direction. At the very least, our challenges to their false assertions can now go from "there's no rule against it" to "it is explicitly allowed by the PANYNJ's rules except for in a few, limited locations." Thanks a million, Phil for your tireless work on this. It's great to finally see some results for all of your efforts.

PhilDernerJr
08-19-2013, 01:57 PM
Thanks, guys. I hate the baby steps, but I do think we are making progress.

wunaladreamin
08-19-2013, 02:05 PM
Baby steps is much better than no steps at all Phil. Thanks again for fighting the fight.

Jared Blech
08-19-2013, 05:25 PM
yuppp, thanks again phil! It can't be said enough!

PhilDernerJr
08-19-2013, 05:39 PM
UPDATE! The best way to file a complaint is to go to http://www.panynj.gov/feedback/ and use the feedback form. Because the actual "comments" box is limited to 250 characters, I recommend you first write a full account of your encounter in a new Spotter Blotter thread here on the forums, and then on the PANYNJ comment box, briefly summarize it, and provide a direct link to your forum thread's statement.

Always remember that what is posted on the forum is PUBLIC and will be read by people...this includes your replies.

ALSO keep in mind that the feedback form can be used to report GOOD encounters too! Let's give the guards and officers credit when they are treating us right!

megatop412
08-19-2013, 06:06 PM
Haven't had a chance to comment till now, but as several others have said already, thanks for all you did for us with this, Phil. I totally agree, this is textbook cautious optimism

Landing Lights
09-23-2013, 08:11 AM
Jason and I were speaking with a spotter from out-of-town yesterday who works for a major corporation, and Allied Barton is their corporate security contractor. He mentioned that when they took over, all of the employees from the previous contractor were immediately rehired. However those who received complaints were quickly weeded out of the system. It might be a good idea to start taking names down or at least the time and vehicle number when we are approached by guards telling us that we can't photograph. Allied Barton is a major security contractor, and as such it may have changed the ballgame a bit in regards to how we can reduce these encounters.

wunaladreamin
09-23-2013, 08:46 AM
Ben, while photography may be permitted...loitering I'm sure is not. Just be smart out there.

Landing Lights
09-23-2013, 09:33 AM
Of course Kenny, however never once has the issue that we are loitering been brought up when I have been present. It is always about the photography. In fact in the encounter we had last night they paid no attention to the registration hunters that were with us, only the photographers. Still it is important for us all to keep cool, smart, and respectful at all times. We are never going to change things with the guards or officers while we are encountering them, said change needs to be brought down from the top.

moose135
09-23-2013, 10:01 AM
If you pay to park there, is it still considered loitering?

wunaladreamin
09-23-2013, 10:36 AM
It very well may be. You're not using the facility for it's intended purpose, technically speaking.

Landing Lights
09-23-2013, 10:51 AM
It very well may be. You're not using the facility for it's intended purpose, technically speaking.

Just to play devil's advocate here, wouldn't the intended purpose here be to park one's car? Every last one of us did arrive in a car and paid for that privilege. What we do once we have parked our car in the parking garage (be it catch a flight, meet a traveler, planespot, or take the Airtrain off airport property) should be irrelevant.

lijk604
09-23-2013, 06:03 PM
Ben, have to play this side....

loiter v. to linger or hang around in a public place or business where one has no particular or legal purpose. In many states, cities, and towns there are statutes or ordinances against loitering by which the police can arrest someone who refuses to "move along." There is a question as to whether such laws are constitutional. However, there is often another criminal statute or ordinance which can be applied specifically to control aggressive begging, soliciting prostitution, drug dealing, blocking entries to stores, public drunkenness, or being a public nuisance.

The parking garage is for JetBlue Terminal 5. States so on every entrance board. If, you are not dealing with JetBlue, ie: taking a flight or picking someone up, them technically, you do not have a reason to be there. The Port has been very tolerant of us as a group. Phil has been working behind the scenes to make our group known, and to try and get them to understand we are a liability, not a nuisance. It is a nice vantage point, but sometimes, you need to think. If they get called up there to check people out 2, 3 days in a row, we become a nuisance. How you ask? What if they are checking out suspicious activity on top of the T5 parking garage (a spotter or group) and something real happens that delays their response. An over reaction on my part you may say, but if that did happen, you can forget ever getting T5 access again.

T5 is hot right now, let it cool off, so we continue to have opportunities there. Like it was mentioned in the other thread, we lost the Cargo area, due to people not thinking, lets not do it to ourselves again.

wunaladreamin
09-23-2013, 06:08 PM
John it's ok man, people need to tweet about things because they are important.

hiss srq
09-23-2013, 07:37 PM
It has taken a LOT of work to get Port to be understanding of our hobby, if we are being granted a bit of leeway where none needs to be granted, it is just foolish to toss it around because the second it becomes a pain in the ass for the cops on the beat around JFK, they are going to start kicking you guys out. Lets not forget what happened at EWR a few years ago to a few peoples memory cards. Correct or not, it happened and it's just one example of what could happen with PAPD and not to toot my horn because but this time if PAPD comes down hard on a group of spotters and it is at T5 JFK, I am not putting my neck out there with the Port to smooth it over or explain as a friend for friends. You can post all the legal right mumbo jumbo you want but the minute one of you acts like a idiot and rubs the PAPD the wrong way, right or wrong when you get taken in for it, I am going to sit back and laugh. As an individual and a member of the group I am going to say knock it off with the super public showings from the T5 parking garage. It's obnoxious and if you don't think that this group or the key members of this organization are not constantly on the radar of the heads that be at various agencies and companies you would be sadly mistaken. Don't be a bunch of caviliar cowboys with access and respect hosts because we are guests of the airport when we are spotting on airport property, announced or not and if we as spotters are not flying out or conducting official business sanctioned by Port etc, they have the right to say take a walk. Don't screw things up for the rest of us. It will be back to square one 5 or 6 years ago if we lose access to the garage and the T5 garage is a fantastic vantage point.

Gerard
09-23-2013, 09:14 PM
So I guess the consensus is when you guys go out spotting DITCH the social media (Twitter, Facebook, Foursquare, Instagram)!!
Also just because a person (or group, or agency) isnt a member of NYCAviation and logged in sure doesnt mean they arent reading EVERYTHING that goes on here!!
And LE is very social media savvy!! Just saying!!

Speedbird1
09-24-2013, 05:09 AM
I also want to thank Phil for standing-up to the PA. I have been chased-away numerous times in my almost 4 decades of spotting. I could write a book about how many times I was humiliated. LAX, on the other hand, gave me zero problems. Anyway, my last encounter was with a TSA agent rather than a PA agent. He forced me to spot taking photos. I argued with him then stopped taking photos. Most of my encounters have been with either terminal security or TSA and not PA; except for my visit to the parking rooftop waiting for QFA to arrive. I plan to return on Fri. to LGA to see if PSA Smiley Jack comes for a return visit. I can't get spotting out of my blood! What to do if bothered by TSA?

RWB
09-24-2013, 06:46 AM
Anyway, my last encounter was with a TSA agent rather than a PA agent. He forced me to stop taking photos. I argued with him then stopped taking photos. What to do if bothered by TSA?
http://nycaviation.com/forum/threads/46480-Bothered-by-a-TSA-Guy
I thought everyone gave good advice on what to do previously.

Jared Blech
09-24-2013, 09:47 AM
Oh gosh...

Delta777LR
09-24-2013, 11:11 AM
I also want to thank Phil for standing-up to the PA. I have been chased-away numerous times in my almost 4 decades of spotting. I could write a book about how many times I was humiliated. LAX, on the other hand, gave me zero problems. Anyway, my last encounter was with a TSA agent rather than a PA agent. He forced me to spot taking photos. I argued with him then stopped taking photos. Most of my encounters have been with either terminal security or TSA and not PA; except for my visit to the parking rooftop waiting for QFA to arrive. I plan to return on Fri. to LGA to see if PSA Smiley Jack comes for a return visit. I can't get spotting out of my blood! What to do if bothered by TSA?

One thing I wouldnt do is argue with the TSA what if they are right or wrong. We all know that there are many that still dont get the picture. See I used to spot from the terminals at LGA but now I dont bother. But you gotta remember that theres always gonna be someone that is always gonna approach you and tell u this kind of BS. All you have to do is keep your cool. And yes if TSA was to tell you something that is not true then have them call port, but dont argue out to them, it's not worth the trouble. Some of us has been trying to say this for awhile now. Same thing like JFK. Theres always a chance you are gonna be chased away, there are many points you wont be chased away. You gotta look at it at both sides. I mean ok, the only ones that can plainly chase you away is PA, since they are the ones that run the airports, not TSA, FJC etc. It happens to many of us all alot but not always often because port is pretty much understanding what we do as far as planespotting goes. Things are getting better if you look at it in the good side. But always remember one thing, Port has power to ask you to leave. If they were to tell u that u cant shoot from that location or etc, u must obay that and not take it in a bad way, theres always other times to return too.

Speedbird1
09-26-2013, 08:44 AM
Thanks Phil for all the hard work for us. Do the photography rules include TSA guards who sometimes hassle me at terminals? National Guardsmen never bother me. Does the TSA have their own set of rules regarding photography different from the Port Authoritys'? I seldom get hassled by Port Authority; usually either private security for teminals or TSA. Most are great and just pass by me but a few like to stir up the pot. Thanks again.

wunaladreamin
09-26-2013, 09:25 AM
Why do I get the feeling that something really not good is going to result from the previous post?

Delta777LR
09-26-2013, 11:02 AM
Why do I get the feeling that something really not good is going to result from the previous post?

Amen!!

Gerard
09-26-2013, 07:03 PM
Why do I get the feeling that something really not good is going to result from the previous post?

He'll be fine!! Cut the guy some slack!! At least he's not tweeting crap!!

emshighway
09-26-2013, 07:17 PM
TSA's policy is to allow photography except for the screens of equipment or if it interfers with the screening process.

wunaladreamin
09-26-2013, 08:35 PM
He'll be fine!! Cut the guy some slack!! Ay least he's not tweeting crap!!
Touché Gerard. Touché.

Jared Blech
09-27-2013, 06:13 PM
F'woo... That was close... good save gerard!

MarioFL
09-29-2013, 06:22 AM
I just left a comment on the Port Authority's webpage, might sound a bit comical but i least i let them know I was hassled. I don't want to mess up the spot or cause trouble for locals and so I left. I also don't know how the cops will react if they get called and I'm visiting so I can't afford to get told to leave by a cop who doesn't understand because that will ruin my trip.

"I was hassled by the T5 parking security driving around in white vehicles who demanded I leave or they would call the cops on me because I was doing aircraft photography. Lady all the way at the bottom working the entrance booths spotted me and yelled "sir you can't be doing that" then called several agents. We contribute to the economy by renting cars, hotels, airfare etc. We are also free security and more effective than these guys driving around every half hour will be. I'm a visitor from out of state by the way and flew to JFK just for to do my hobby. Photography is art, not terrorism someone please tell their supervisors so they stop harassing individuals. Thank you for listening"

Delta777LR
09-29-2013, 09:18 AM
"I was hassled by the T5 parking security driving around in white vehicles who demanded I leave or they would call the cops on me because I was doing aircraft photography. Lady all the way at the bottom working the entrance booths spotted me and yelled "sir you can't be doing that" then called several agents. We contribute to the economy by renting cars, hotels, airfare etc. We are also free security and their supervisors so they stop harassing individuals. Thank you for listening"


I would have told them to call the cops anyway. The Security attempts to always come down on us a lot. See, some of us had that problem during UN week and we had a visit from the PAPD and they were very polite, all they did was checked our ID's asked if we r only planespotting and so we allowed to continue without another hassle. But yea smart thing to do is if the security tells you that you cant take pictures, tell them to call port, PA has more juristiction than the security, rent a cop etc. PAPD will come up to check u but, if asked to leave, u must do so, if worse comes to worse, theyre are a number of locations to take photos by checking the spotting map, but dont let an encounter ruin your day of spotting. These actions happen alot but we deal with it in anyway, not give up

MarioFL
09-29-2013, 09:50 AM
Thanks Sergio. Also I didn't see anyone whenever I'd went up those stairs to check, except yesturday almost at sunset. There were two guys there shooting the Kuwait A319. A spanish and a younger Asian guy, I didn't know them but they were busy chasing something and went to the other corner of the lot. I haven't been able to meet anyone this time around. Would have been great to spot with someone else, oh well.

I was about to go home anyways but decided to stay about 20 more minutes to shoot the Brunei taxxing out

Delta777LR
09-29-2013, 10:14 AM
it doesnt hurt to always go up and meet. that what I used to do, thats one of the ways that you meet anyone who my be in the same forums we are in and just for the company of someone with the same passion :smile:

gonzalu
09-29-2013, 09:19 PM
Thanks Sergio. Also I didn't see anyone whenever I'd went up those stairs to check, except yesturday almost at sunset. There were two guys there shooting the Kuwait A319. A spanish and a younger Asian guy, I didn't know them but they were busy chasing something and went to the other corner of the lot. I haven't been able to meet anyone this time around. Would have been great to spot with someone else, oh well.

I was about to go home anyways but decided to stay about 20 more minutes to shoot the Brunei taxxing out

Mario,

The BEST way to meet others and spot with them is at sanctioned public locations, most well described in this website and others. You will likely get a cold shoulder at other locations for obvious reasons.

We are a great group of very friendly spotters and have many very generous folks in the group who express their generosity in varied forms. Some offer chatter, others technical advice and expertise, some offer information, some wisdom, some laughter (some times in huge doses). My best advice is to ramp up slowly and contribute. Contribution to the community is a sure way to make friends here.

Cheers!

Landing Lights
09-30-2013, 06:26 AM
Hi Mario. I'm going to echo exactly what Manny said since I couldn't put it any better myself. I for one love to talk to other spotters when I'm out. Its a great way to teach or learn something and it helps pass the time between traffic or during an RJ parade. most of what I know about photography, cameras, and planespotting I learned either on these forums or by talking with others while I was out spotting. And I have made some of the best friends that a person could ask for in the process. Welcome to the community and I hope to see you out there soon.

MarioFL
10-06-2013, 09:58 PM
The BEST way to meet others and spot with them is at sanctioned public locations, most well described in this website and others. You will likely get a cold shoulder at other locations for obvious reasons.

We are a great group of very friendly spotters and have many very generous folks in the group who express their generosity in varied forms. Some offer chatter, others technical advice and expertise, some offer information, some wisdom, some laughter (some times in huge doses). My best advice is to ramp up slowly and contribute. Contribution to the community is a sure way to make friends here.

Cheers!


Oh so that's what that was all about... not happy to see a fellow photographer on a “secret” location, but yet you and the other guy were up there too. And now telling me how to do my photography and how to post on the forum. Talk about generosity. I’m such a clueless amateur who should learn to contribute in order to make friends. Oh man..

I posted about the Qatar A343 (btw nobody else did) and the Uganda Gov. Gulfstream back at JFK in the UN thread, keeping the list complete of every VIP aircraft sighted. I think that’s a contribution.

I also befriended a German spotter at the garage that within a half hour or so was about to get flushed out by security. I ignored the security but eventually she got out and talked to him. As a tourist, he was nervous and started packing in his camera. I walked to the lady and talked to her for a few seconds and she left us alone. Basically saving his last spotting afternoon here before he flew back to Germany, and it took a non-local visitor (me) to help another one.

Meanwhile… some locals were busy darting in and out of their cars, disinterested in meeting anyone as if they were up to no good - Yes, you have all the right to offer zero help or have no interest in meeting a fellow photographer that comes up to you and says hello, but at the very least... don't tell people what they should do or flip the script with formulaic lectures.

moose135
10-06-2013, 11:18 PM
Lighten up, Francis...

wunaladreamin
10-07-2013, 05:27 AM
Oh so that's what that was all about... not happy to see a fellow photographer on a “secret” location, but yet you and the other guy were up there too. And now telling me how to do my photography and how to post on the forum. Talk about generosity. I’m such a clueless amateur who should learn to contribute in order to make friends. Oh man..

I posted about the Qatar A343 (btw nobody else did) and the Uganda Gov. Gulfstream back at JFK in the UN thread, keeping the list complete of every VIP aircraft sighted. I think that’s a contribution.

I also befriended a German spotter at the garage that within a half hour or so was about to get flushed out by security. I ignored the security but eventually she got out and talked to him. As a tourist, he was nervous and started packing in his camera. I walked to the lady and talked to her for a few seconds and she left us alone. Basically saving his last spotting afternoon here before he flew back to Germany, and it took a non-local visitor (me) to help another one.

Meanwhile… some locals were busy darting in and out of their cars, disinterested in meeting anyone as if they were up to no good - Yes, you have all the right to offer zero help or have no interest in meeting a fellow photographer that comes up to you and says hello, but at the very least... don't tell people what they should do or flip the script with formulaic lectures.
I love martyrs.

The point is this...a location like this even though much hard work has been put in, is still very sensitive. So as to not invite trouble, a lot of people will simply keep to themselves. It's not a fact of giving a cold shoulder to a new spotter so much as it is a measure to minimize potential headache. Go to a spot like Panera and you'll have a much different experience.

As Moose so eloquently put it...lighten up Francis.

Jared Blech
10-07-2013, 09:37 AM
Well this took an unexpected turn didn't it...
Mario... I really don't think anybody meant to give you a cold shoulder as the above comment stated, it was the fact that it was a sensitve location for spotting. I also believe that contributing is the best way to make friends. Ask anybody here, im pretty new... The best way I got my name out there was Posting... And approaching other spotters...

Zee71
10-07-2013, 05:45 PM
Mario ..... I wish I had more time to stay and chat but other matters needed my attention. Unfortunately, you found out first hand with security. I am glad you had a positive experience with the individual but most of the time security is a pain, so most of us lay low and are confined to our vehicles while at that location. As mentioned by others the more public locations are a great way of meeting other spotters and sharing their experiences and knowledge. Next time you're in town feel free to PM me and I would be more than glad to shoot with you.

Delta777LR
10-07-2013, 11:44 PM
Mario, don't think we are getting hard on you or anything. As a few stated, T5 still and will remain one of the sensitive spots and there are chances security will be a pain as Mark stated. And also as Kenny stated, Shoot from areas like from the Panera will make a difference of spotting i mean we dont get the same issue like at T5. Also the Mounds is fantastic to hang at if 22s are in use however the better lighing is around 3pm till sunset. Also If u see local spotters don't hesitate to meet any, many are mostly from here and we are alot friendly and we are a team. If anytime I was to be out there shooting, ill be happy to join you as well.. So don't get excited when others try to help you, thats what we do, it's all part of learning

gonzalu
10-08-2013, 08:05 AM
Oh so that's what that was all about... not happy to see a fellow photographer on a “secret” location, but yet you and the other guy were up there too. And now telling me how to do my photography and how to post on the forum. Talk about generosity. I’m such a clueless amateur who should learn to contribute in order to make friends. Oh man..
.

Mario, it's a real shame to see this post from you. I meant nothing personal or directed at you but was generalizing trying to explain my behavior that particular moment.

I am sorry you feel this way and wish you the best of luck with your endeavors... My sincere apologies if i
made you feel uncomfortable in any way.

Cheers!

ANITIX87
10-08-2013, 08:54 AM
My sincere apologies if i made you feel uncomfortable in any way.
Remember, Manny, a crowded subway car is not an excuse for unwanted touching.

Antonis

wunaladreamin
10-08-2013, 09:14 AM
Remember, Manny, a crowded subway car is not an excuse for unwanted touching.

Antonis
It's not?!?!

Dammit Manny! Now I have to pay for more counseling sessions!