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View Full Version : 2-3-13 JFK T5 .. YES AGAIN



Roush6NY
02-03-2013, 06:27 PM
I know this whole T5 issue is getting old already but this afternoon it really got me heated and it takes allot to get me to that level as the people that know me can tell you that.

Just sitting in my truck, relaxing and taking a shot here and there. The security truck came up a few times and left right away. At one point I see the truck come up and park directly in front of me, nose to nose, took about 10 minutes till I see a young female get out and approach my car. I gave her a very friendly wave and said hello with a big smile. She goes I saw you taking pictures before, I said YES, I was. You are not allowed to take photos on this property, you need a permit for that.

me: Sorry, but I'am pretty sure I do not need a permit to be up here. No, you need a permit, if you are taking photos in NYC, thats fine, no permit needed, but here is a different story.

me: Look, I do not want any problems, I know you are doing your job and i respect you 100% but I do not see any official rules or signes here that does not alow me to take photos of the planes. (for some reason the whole time she has a smirk on her face ). Now she gets on the radio and goes I have someone up here that is taking photos.

me: Would you like me to leave ? No amswer. She goes, do you want me to get port up here to deal with this and explain to you?

me: Again, as I said before I'm not looking to cause problems just telling you what I know. ( now here is where I almost lost my SHHIT real bad but again kept my cool). She has the nerve to say, LOOK, YOU SEEM TO SPEAK FLUENT ENGLISH WITH NO ACCENT SO I AM PRETTY SURE YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID TO YOU. Excuse me I replied? YES, I'M AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AND I DID UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING.

I am soooo F %$#^%$# ng pissed at this point and can not believe she even said something like this to me so I just said to my self to leave.

me: I am asking you again, would you like me to leave ????? I will. she is just shaking her damn head and walks back to her truck. so I just left.

Sorry, this was about an hour and half ago and I am still boiling over this, this girl looked liked she was 20 years old and pretty much wanted to say anything that came to her head. I was very very close to having her call port and seeing what they were going to say to me but I did not want to take it to that level.

Phil, I know you are trying everything in your power to help us with this matter and I am sorry to be bitching about it on here again, but I have just had it, I was already having a pretty bad day with other reasons in my life and I just wanted to get away and go to the only place that I knew can calm me down and put a smile on my face by doing what I love the most, guess that did not turn out the way I wanted to.

RomNYC
02-03-2013, 06:57 PM
Was there yesterday. I've never been questioned there but I find the atmosphere so not welcoming that I only stay 15 minutes every time. Yesterday, a security truck came within 5 minutes, did not stop but did notice I was there. I did not bother wait for a second visit and left.

Keeping our cool is the single most important thing to do, no matter how hard it is. If I were in your shoes right now Kaz (whose photography I absolutely love), given that you have NO fun up there at the moment, I would just avoid that location for a while. Sure, it might prove them right but you're not having fun and are getting frustrated. I wouldn't want to push my love for the hobby to the point of getting in trouble with them.

Not saying you did anything wrong Kaz, and that's only -my- opinion. Feel free to disagree!

Take care bud.

Cary
02-03-2013, 07:25 PM
Sorry to hear that, Kaz :( Was it the same security girl who was up there taking pics herself (I think of the sunset behind the city), when a few of us were up there? :tongue:

gonzalu
02-03-2013, 08:28 PM
Kaz,

I am SURE you misunderstood her meaning of understanding English. She was NOT referring to you as being foreign in the sense of you look like a terrorist... I am sure she was saying it as implying for you not to play dumb with her that you somehow didn't understand her.

Again, I AM ON YOUR SIDE guys, but by all means, this is really getting out of hand. I spent the ENTIRE afternoon (about 5 hours worth) last Sat with a friend from Slovakia and we took pics of EVERY plane, and not a single incident. We stayed in our car when security drove by and were prepared to leave at the first sign we would be asked to.

Please be aware that the parking facility can ask you to leave at any time. I believe it is written in the signs when you enter and perhaps even on the ticket you take when entering... Sorry Kaz that you had a bad encounter... I suggest next time if you want to stand your ground, to NOT interact with the officer... simply say nothing, the more you say the worse it will be for you... all of it will be used against you (you know the routine)

Allow them to call a real Police Officer and then you can ask if you are being arrested and for what and take it from there... If you are within your right(s) you should not worry, all will end on your side.

problem is most of us have no time or desire to "test" the system ... all these incidents will do is encourage The Port to use these situations as a way to DENY us our right to photograph, as close as we are I am afraid it may be for naught...

Recently our neighborhood petitioned the city for ONE DAY alternate side of the street parking for Street Cleaning (it was a 4 day a week deal before) ... The city said it would consider it if we kept our streets clean, on their own, for a month. We had NO street cleaning for one whole month, no street sweepers. If the streets remained clean, we could earn our one day a week cleaning.

It was tough but we made it. I was worried... parts of our neighborhood are through streets from other parts to other neighborhoods and frequently people using the public parks pass on through and litter on our streets. We all banded together and made sure nothing like that kept us from our goal.

I hope we can all work together to keep this location from going "hot" and a negative outcome result.

Cheers!

Roush6NY
02-03-2013, 08:38 PM
Manny, I am with you 100% as well. I have spent countless days up there by my self and with others and not a word was said. I can not begin to count how many times I have been there alone in the car just as you stated for hours and hours till the day was over( and shot every single plane ) and only ONCE I was just asked to leave and I took right off.

This one today, did not ONCE ask me to leave, I was the one that was asking if "you like me to leave" .. I am not the type to start for no reason to get a rise out of security or play hard ball. She kept trying to push the issue that a permit is needed up here and the rest of the mess that was coming out of her mouth, that is why im pissed, if I was asked to leave, I would have not questioned it once and BTW I was in the car the whole time, unless I got out to take a shot and the security car made their rounds 3 times before this happend and did not even stop for a split sec to even look towards my truck.

gonzalu
02-03-2013, 10:38 PM
I know Kaz... what my point mainly is, don't give them a reason... You should have just said, yep, thank you, see ya! and just left... but I can;t say I wouldn't have acted like a bigger ass myself :tongue: easy for me to be a Monday Morning QB!

Zee71
02-03-2013, 11:27 PM
Oh man Kaz .... I feel terrible with what you had to deal with and go through. Kaz when she mentioned the permit thing, I would have asked her a few more questions. I honestly believe they were told to deter individuals from taking photos but if push comes to shove really have no legal basis (just my honest opinion). I recall an incident up T5 last year where there were a few of us shooting. Long story short ..... The security individual stated he would call the cops at which point I recall stating "Please do". No cops ever showed up as the security individual left with his tail between his legs as we kept shooting. A

Here's another .... The tower called! Right! Like they have time to personally call you Mr Security and take there attention away from keeping their eyes on the aircrafts.

Kaz .... You can ride with me next time I go to T5. Just make sure you bring your camping chair and a book, and we'll post a sign on the car " FREE Spottiing Lessons" Here

Kaz ..... Don't loose sleep over it brother! Tomorrow is another day.

NIKV69
02-04-2013, 11:23 AM
Oh man Kaz .... I feel terrible with what you had to deal with and go through. Kaz when she mentioned the permit thing, I would have asked her a few more questions. I honestly believe they were told to deter individuals from taking photos but if push comes to shove really have no legal basis (just my honest opinion). I recall an incident up T5 last year where there were a few of us shooting. Long story short ..... The security individual stated he would call the cops at which point I recall stating "Please do". No cops ever showed up as the security individual left with his tail between his legs as we kept shooting. A

Here's another .... The tower called! Right! Like they have time to personally call you Mr Security and take there attention away from keeping their eyes on the aircrafts.

Kaz .... You can ride with me next time I go to T5. Just make sure you bring your camping chair and a book, and we'll post a sign on the car " FREE Spottiing Lessons" Here

Kaz ..... Don't loose sleep over it brother! Tomorrow is another day.

That was a great encounter Mark. Show me the policy!

Zee71
02-04-2013, 12:01 PM
My feeling is when you are there alone then you may appear to be suspicious but in numbers it doesn't appear to be that way. I recall when a bunch of us where up there with Phil, Mario, etc. and security did not do a thing or say a word. Go figure!

Nick ..... I still haven't seen their policy!

Gerard
02-05-2013, 10:19 AM
Please be aware that the parking facility can ask you to leave at any time. I believe it is written in the signs when you enter and perhaps even on the ticket you take when entering...


A little off topic here so excuse my intrusion but.......
Speaking of tickets what are the rates for that facility? Do they have long-term also? I've been using SmartPark for the last few years now and am quite satisfied with there service but just curious!!

gonzalu
02-05-2013, 10:27 AM
5 hours was $26.00 1 is $6 or $9 I believe depends on time of day... It is EXPENSIVE... Long Term parking is over by Lefferts Blvd. A lot cheaper... but not as cheap as off-airport parking!

Roush6NY
02-05-2013, 11:23 AM
5 hours was $26.00 1 is $6 or $9 I believe depends on time of day... It is EXPENSIVE...

Sure is ........ Id love to pull up my EZpass history and see what everything has added it up to till today !

gonzalu
02-05-2013, 12:03 PM
Oh no, I do NOT want to know... it will be at least a lens worth :tongue:

Gerard
02-05-2013, 12:43 PM
5 hours was $26.00 1 is $6 or $9 I believe depends on time of day... It is EXPENSIVE... Long Term parking is over by Lefferts Blvd. A lot cheaper... but not as cheap as off-airport parking!

Thanks. We did the Long Term once but it was a pain getting a space, dragging luggage to the Airtrain then to the Terminal yadda yadda!! SmartPark is so much better!!

Gerard
02-05-2013, 12:55 PM
Has there been any type of thievery/larceny in the facility? That is the security guards primary concern, to protect the customers assets!! You guys being up there probably makes them nervous!! Some of the guards
know how to handle it, others dont!! I mean these guards arent well trained LE officers so just have patience with dealing with them as hard as it might be. I do believe if there is any type of criminal activity with the cars you can probably kiss that location goodbye!! Good luck guys!!

NIKV69
02-05-2013, 02:08 PM
5 hours was $26.00 1 is $6 or $9 I believe depends on time of day... It is EXPENSIVE... Long Term parking is over by Lefferts Blvd. A lot cheaper... but not as cheap as off-airport parking!

Expensive? That is robbery! PHX and LAS is more than half cheaper than that!

steve1840
02-05-2013, 02:22 PM
Exactly....PHX is only $4/hr. And I believe there is a $24 maximum charge.

I was looking at the prices for the garage at KMEM for atrip I plan to take in May....their economy (which is at the terminal and overlooks the field) garage is a max of $6/day! Long term parking in that garage is only $11/day....

T5 prices must just be part of the NYC experience....

gonzalu
02-05-2013, 02:34 PM
Expensive? That is robbery! PHX and LAS is more than half cheaper than that!

LAS is free, as long as you stay with your car by the spotter parking area :P

NIKV69
02-05-2013, 02:57 PM
Exactly....PHX is only $4/hr. And I believe there is a $24 maximum charge.

I was looking at the prices for the garage at KMEM for atrip I plan to take in May....their economy (which is at the terminal and overlooks the field) garage is a max of $6/day! Long term parking in that garage is only $11/day....

T5 prices must just be part of the NYC experience....

You mean Port getting rich. What robbery!

moose135
02-05-2013, 03:50 PM
I was looking at the prices for the garage at KMEM for atrip I plan to take in May....their economy (which is at the terminal and overlooks the field) garage is a max of $6/day! Long term parking in that garage is only $11/day....
But at the end of the day, you're in Memphis...there are tradeoffs.

steve1840
02-05-2013, 07:42 PM
But at the end of the day, you're in Memphis...there are tradeoffs.

Haha! Yes. That is correct. But cant think of anything better to do while going to visit my kids than get as many FedSex threeholers as i can. :tongue:

Delta777LR
02-06-2013, 09:23 PM
Im not gonna get nasty about this situation but this is all BC wats happening at T5. See When I was spotting at T5 with Steve, Kaz, Mark and Fred a couple of weeks ago, the Security kept coming around evry 45 minutes/hour and not said anything to any of us and we mostly stayed in the cars while they were in sight, that wasnt bad at all. 1 night before that they saw me taking pics at the T2/T3 garage and told me i wasnt allowed to take pictures of the planes and that it was against the law and i could be fined. My opinion is, all they like to do is make up what they say just to scare you or etc. But i say to myself that half the things they do is at least 50% or more wrong but I just dont bother giving them a hard time just not to make things worse. I hope this whole thing dont get worse and lose the location. As for the parking rates too, $26.00 is overboard for 5 hours but it is wat it is. Hopefully eventually soon enough as Phil stated awhile back, alot of this will slow down more and more with the encounters depending what happens with PA. With all these encounters taking place at T5 more and more, things are gonna be rough and we dont wanna head in that direction. Kaz, im sorry that u had a messed up encouting like that. Hope you get well and start a new day planespotting. I agree with Manny about all thats been said here too. Its not worth the argument to the officers.

hiss srq
02-17-2013, 06:26 AM
They are FJC security guards, what that means is a good chunk of them don't even know how to spell "New York" or "Terminal" I usually do not go to this length but if you are paying to park up there, they have no reason to bother you or say anything, keep shooting till a Port Cop shows up... At least that's my opinion.

PhilDernerJr
02-18-2013, 08:35 PM
Kaz, first let me say that i WANT to see you and others vent here. That is what the Spotter Blotter is for. We need to learn about, share and discuss these incidents, because we are all in it together.

What is posted here is public anyway, and I lately have been showing these encounters to the PANYNJ officials who are addressing this and still preparing their official stance that allows photography on airport grounds.

The rest comes down to personal opinion. I personally (not officially) have no problem standing up to a guard and saying "by all means, please call the police", not to instigate, but to peacefully enforce your own rights. I wouldn't mind making the call myself in that situation. However, if a police officer who is unaware of the rules shows up, there is a chance you may get taken to a police station by him/her anyway. This has happened to me twice in the past decade of spotting (one at JFK). I am willing to do that, but only when I am alone. Because of the risks involved, I would never put my friends in the same position/risk.

Again, until that official memo goes out to airport management, PAPD, contract security and us, thse incidents may continue here and there. I am glad that we've all been able to stay cool regardless of their ignorance. I empathize with the woman's feeling that she is doing her job, but she clearly needs better guidance from her superiors.

PhilDernerJr
02-18-2013, 08:36 PM
Oh, and if you end up leaving as a result of a guard telling you...tell her that you would like her to escort you out, as you refuse to pay for parking if you are being told to leave for doing something that is not against any actual rules.

steve1840
02-18-2013, 09:20 PM
Oh, and if you end up leaving as a result of a guard telling you...tell her that you would like her to escort you out, as you refuse to pay for parking if you are being told to leave for doing something that is not against any actual rules.

I never even thought about that.....

RomNYC
02-18-2013, 09:27 PM
Oh, and if you end up leaving as a result of a guard telling you...tell her that you would like her to escort you out, as you refuse to pay for parking if you are being told to leave for doing something that is not against any actual rules.

I'd be too chicken to do that, especially by myself up there. To me, that's just adding fuel to the fire and potentially a huge waste of time. As ignorant they may be, they are still persuaded they are 100% right, and probably wouldn't mind escalating the situation in such case. That's just me though, I perfectly understand/agree with your points.

Mateo
02-18-2013, 09:58 PM
I dropped off of following this thread after the first burst and am now seeing it again, so apologies for the lateness. Rates for all of the terminal garages are the same, and can be found here http://www.panynj.gov/airports/jfk-parking.html . It's $3 per half-hour up to a daily max of $33 (which you hit once you pass 5 hours). It's a lot, but not totally out of line with short-term parking at other major airports in the northeast (PHL is 40, DCA and IAD are 36, BOS is 27).

Long-term at JFK is $18, which is quite expensive, plus they charge the full whack for the first 24 hours from the moment you enter. Most other places will charge in either 8 hour increments or will charge a smaller fee for the first hour or two before bumping up to the daily rate.

megatop412
02-18-2013, 10:00 PM
This T5 situation seems like its becoming a powderkeg if it's not there already. Sooner or later, someone, whether it's a spotter or security/LEO, is going to lose their cool for real, and then the sh*t is really going to hit the fan.

snydersnapshots
02-18-2013, 10:07 PM
Though I've been taking pictures as a pilot for over 30 years, when it comes to spotting and taking pictures I'm a relative newbie. Having said that, I'm going to throw out my two-cents worth and I'd like your opinions.

Is there a non-emergency number for the actual PA police to say "I'm at T5 taking photos, I'll be there from XX PM to YY PM, I'm driving such and such a vehicle, and I'm wearing bermuda shorts, a western shirt, and cowboy boots By the way, what was your name again?" (and they say an airline pilot's wardrobe is the best birth control method known to man...)

I was spotting in Houston with a guy who does it on a regular basis and he called the Airport Operations folks and we gave them our vehicle info, location, and the times we were going to be there....

If you could do that, then when/if security comes around, you could either call the PA police yourself or tell them to call--giving them the number and the name of the person you talked to. Best case, you piss them off because you headed them off at the pass. Worst case, the security calls the cops, the cops take you in, and you give them the name of the person you talked to. Maybe a simplistic and logical look at things in a jurisdiction where simplicity and logic aren't part of the equation.

megatop412
02-18-2013, 10:32 PM
Though I've been taking pictures as a pilot for over 30 years, when it comes to spotting and taking pictures I'm a relative newbie. Having said that, I'm going to throw out my two-cents worth and I'd like your opinions.

Is there a non-emergency number for the actual PA police to say "I'm at T5 taking photos, I'll be there from XX PM to YY PM, I'm driving such and such a vehicle, and I'm wearing bermuda shorts, a western shirt, and cowboy boots By the way, what was your name again?" (and they say an airline pilot's wardrobe is the best birth control method known to man...)

I was spotting in Houston with a guy who does it on a regular basis and he called the Airport Operations folks and we gave them our vehicle info, location, and the times we were going to be there....

If you could do that, then when/if security comes around, you could either call the PA police yourself or tell them to call--giving them the number and the name of the person you talked to. Best case, you piss them off because you headed them off at the pass. Worst case, the security calls the cops, the cops take you in, and you give them the name of the person you talked to. Maybe a simplistic and logical look at things in a jurisdiction where simplicity and logic aren't part of the equation.

I've asked that here before and gotten the answer that essentially, what works in Boston ain't gonna work at Kennedy(you can call up in Boston if you're going to be on their garage and apparently it makes a difference).

NIKV69
02-18-2013, 10:52 PM
Oh, and if you end up leaving as a result of a guard telling you...tell her that you would like her to escort you out, as you refuse to pay for parking if you are being told to leave for doing something that is not against any actual rules.

I would love to have the first person here who attempts this to post the result.

PhilDernerJr
02-19-2013, 12:27 AM
My opinion is that if the spotter presses the security guard to that, that it will hold them to the fire and have them say "Forget it...you can stay here". My PERSONAL opinion is that if YOU try to escalate it, they will back down. I could be very wrong though. There is risk in some capacity on many sides.

RomNYC
02-19-2013, 12:49 AM
My opinion is that if the spotter presses the security guard to that, that it will hold them to the fire and have them say "Forget it...you can stay here". My PERSONAL opinion is that if YOU try to escalate it, they will back down. I could be very wrong though. There is risk in some capacity on many sides.

I perfectly understand your arguments Phil, and I fully believe you are right. However this is where I draw the line between having a hobby and fighting for it. I'm gonna sound selfish as hell, but spotting is a way for me to relax after a week of work. I watch the planes, take my photos, whatever. If I have to FIGHT for it, then I'm not interested anymore, especially given that it is only involving ONE location, which I believe everyone here agreed on keeping quiet 2 years ago. I believe we still have plenty of locations to enjoy our hobby from and that, as megatop412 previously said, this situation is getting out of hand. If we are to get upset about it, then this hobby is not a hobby. It feels like work... Actually no, at least I can control what I do at work... A luxury I don't have at John Fitzgerald Kennedy International Airport.

Phil, though, I ADMIRE you for doing everything you do for our community. You show amazing deals of energy, patience, and conviction in trying to solve this issue for us, not you, US. I applaud you for this, and everything else you do with NYCA.

I just think a lot of people are getting upset here. And I believe this should not happen. It is *just* a hobby.

NIKV69
02-19-2013, 03:09 AM
My opinion is that if the spotter presses the security guard to that, that it will hold them to the fire and have them say "Forget it...you can stay here". My PERSONAL opinion is that if YOU try to escalate it, they will back down. I could be very wrong though. There is risk in some capacity on many sides.

Mark Z has already established that with his "Show me the policy" episode. Going forward though it will only work on a case by case basis. These encounters will still happen from time to time though. Until a better relationship is developed with security guards and Port. Escalating things and demanding not paying the parking fee will only set this back.

hiss srq
02-19-2013, 07:18 AM
Nick, I doubt it will escelate things, when I return to New York I am going to test this theroy, I am going to pretend to be a civillian, hide all of my security credentials and take my shield out of my wallet and see if me and Phil's theroy is correct.

megatop412
02-19-2013, 09:29 AM
Rom you are right in the end we are all just enjoying a hobby and it shouldn't have to require a struggle like this to enjoy it, which for some will make it not worth the effort. I just hate that circumstances had to pick the one hobby I feel most passionate about to make a mess out of. You would think that people flying model rockets(which I also enjoyed growing up until I lost the damn thing by using a motor too big for the vehicle I was launching) would have to deal with these sorts of security hassles and not people taking pictures. But for me, the sheer absurdity of it all is what I think propels me to want to fight the fight.

NIKV69
02-19-2013, 01:04 PM
Nick, I doubt it will escelate things, when I return to New York I am going to test this theroy, I am going to pretend to be a civillian, hide all of my security credentials and take my shield out of my wallet and see if me and Phil's theroy is correct.

Get video, this ought to be good. (facepalm)

wunaladreamin
02-19-2013, 02:39 PM
Get video, this ought to be good. (facepalm)
I'll bring the popcorn.

steve1840
02-19-2013, 03:12 PM
I'll bring the popcorn.

Count me in for beer, vodka, gin, and tonic water......

Delta777LR
02-19-2013, 04:49 PM
count me in ill have smokes with me lol. well ill have my Newports

PhilDernerJr
02-19-2013, 05:50 PM
I think instigating is a bad thing, though. :-p

NIKV69
02-19-2013, 09:31 PM
I think instigating is a bad thing, though. :-p

I don't see the point of putting a third party with nothing to do with the situation in a spot. The person sitting in the toll booth doesn't need this drama. Especially when it's manufactured. If you want to stand your ground against a rent a cop so be it. Let them call Port. Again Mark's approach was perfect. Hence why it worked.

Delta777LR
02-20-2013, 09:30 PM
I don't see the point of putting a third party with nothing to do with the situation in a spot. The person sitting in the toll booth doesn't need this drama. Especially when it's manufactured. If you want to stand your ground against a rent a cop so be it. Let them call Port. Again Mark's approach was perfect. Hence why it worked.

Tell that to the rent a cops at EWR. first thing first, CF cards confiscated by PAPD LOL

hiss srq
02-25-2013, 06:47 AM
What can they do? And ultimatly I am not just a civillian in any of the capacities so if it escelates I would tell them to sit on a stiff one and walk away anyway... It's FJC security, not secret service and spotting is not a crime. I would hedge my bet that the Port Cop will be more pissed with the"security guard" than me anyway if I didn't obey them.

Landing Lights
02-25-2013, 07:26 AM
To me, it is less about what "they" can do and more about the effect on other spotters. I feel very strongly that one individual taking adversarial actions against a guard could negatively impact the situation when that guard encounters another spotter. Lets face it for now the rules are extremely vague and those tasked with enforcement seem to be misinformed, but that is what we have to deal with for now. I am hopeful, as I am sure many of you are, that in the future the rules will become more clear and the guards and officers will become more informed. So far, it seems that it is the guard or officer acting inappropriately more often than the spotter in these encounters. That is the way that we should attempt to keep it. I would much rather deal with what we have now then have to deal with a guard that has been crossed in the past and is now out to get us.

PhilDernerJr
02-25-2013, 03:30 PM
I think there is a big difference between standing up for your true rights and using the actual regulations in a respectful way versus being adversarial. I don't think anyone is saying that we should do what I would consider to be "adversarial".