Website Stealing Images- Warning,Request for Help/Advice?

[NickPeterman]

Hello All,

I am sure we have all seen the rash of Facebook pages illegally using images these past few months. As disturbing as they are, the idea of a website in the USA knowingly, and willingly hosting images that have been stolen and illegally re-posted is even more egregious. Yet that is exactly the situation that I, and I suspect more unknowing photographers, find ourselves in. As such, I am writing first to warn photographers to check out Patricksaviation.com for stolen images of their own, and second to ask for advice.

I first became aware of the stolen image (URL : http://www.patricksaviation.com/photos/SAS73/42397/ ) a day or two after it was posted. At that time I immediately used the contact feature on the website to notify them of the situation. It would seem that at least one of their users subscribes to the fallacy that giving credit and having approval to use a photo are one in the same, which many of us know is far from the truth. Now, more than two weeks later, and after emailing the owner of the website himself, as well as commenting on the image requesting its removal, nothing has been done. They have not even taken the time to issue a response.

I'll admit that this is a very new situation for me, andI know my options are likely limited at this point, but I would love to hear other people's thoughts and ideas on the issue. I know that none of us like to see our images used sans permission. I can only hope that a little awareness, and perhaps discoveries of new images posted without permission will lead to the site fulfilling it's legal obligations to take down illegally posted pictures.



Regards,

Nick Peterman

[eric8669]

at least they gave you credit and acknowledge that you took the photo.

[NickPeterman]

Sadly, that is exactly what they want you to say. If someone took your car, but painted on the hood "Property of John Doe" it wouldn't legitimize their actions. And if we, as a community of photographers decide to condone use of our images without permission, no one will ever respect copyright of said images.

[eric8669]

Yeah, I know what you are saying, but in this case they are just posting your image and giving you credit. I believe in a Creative Commons(non commercial) approach to my images. You can post them, just give me the credit.

[megatop412]

So this is the place you were having the problem with the Kfir photo.

I read one of the recent threads on the 'other' site about this topic and some of those chaps seemed to reccommend a range of responses, from billing the person(s) using the image to threatening legal action.

I'd say, if everything is contained within the US, you can respond with the weight of the American legal system and copyright law behind you. However, on that other site it wasn't, and things get very complicated. One person even detailed how he obtained the 'proof' that the other site had been using his images, not with a simple screenshot, but he had to actually get a person in a position of authority to validate that that was happening independently. Don't ask me how he did it, but it was in another country. Once he did so, the offending party was essentially forced to pay him for the use of the images.

The same thing happens all the time with online music 'sharing'. I never gave permission for any of my music to be posted on the internet for anyone to download, yet there it is. I created it, but another person does what they want with it.

Because this sort of thing seems to be relatively new, with few precedents, there really is no central way of solving these things until a concerted effort is made to develop a systematic approach to dealing with these offenses. In the meantime, you are only limited by your creativity.

This is one reason I'm glad I don't have any images on that site, and that I'm not on FB.

[gonzalu]

Hey Nick... I understand your position and I am on your side. Eric's position is his and I respect that as well... however, Eric, you MUST respect other's rights too. You can;t simply say that it is not a big deal. Giving credit is CERTAINLY NOT what I would expect. I expect NOT STEALING first. Only way to do it properly is to post a LINK to the original. If the site was a NEWS SITE and they were wring a story, a legitimate story, they are allowed to make a small caption ( I believe, and William and Jason can correct me if I am wrong legally :smile: ) and then make a proper caption and attribution with a link to the original. Even then, a proper news organization will ask for permission.

Nick, it seems the image is still being used without your permission. You should step up your pursuit and go to the ISP and see how far that gets you.

Finally, if you're really peeved, get a lawyer :smile:

[eric8669]

Of course permission has to be granted in all cases first.

[megatop412]

Hey Nick... I understand your position and I am on your side. Eric's position is his and I respect that as well... however, Eric, you MUST respect other's rights too. You can;t simply say that it is not a big deal. Giving credit is CERTAINLY NOT what I would expect. I expect NOT STEALING first. Only way to do it properly is to post a LINK to the original. If the site was a NEWS SITE and they were wring a story, a legitimate story, they are allowed to make a small caption ( I believe, and William and Jason can correct me if I am wrong legally :smile: ) and then make a proper caption and attribution with a link to the original. Even then, a proper news organization will ask for permission.

Nick, it seems the image is still being used without your permission. You should step up your pursuit and go to the ISP and see how far that gets you.

Finally, if you're really peeved, get a lawyer :smile:


Jason's the lawyer, I'm the psychologist, the guy you call when you need someone talked out of jumping off a bridge(warning: past results do not guarantee future performance)

[PhilDernerJr]

If it's a foreign site and they refuse/don't take down the image, the best thing to do is for everyone here to flood the site with vulgar comments and flaming until they take it down.

Nick, all of this action, of course, with your permission.

[PhilDernerJr]

I'd like to add that, I personally do condone the complete and total comment flaming on a site like that when there are such few options for getting justice for your theft. For many of us, it's the only way to defend ourselves from the rampant theft that so many of us have experienced. We cannot tolerate it. It infuriates me and people WILL be held accountable.

I thought this was a foreign site, but I see it's not. Email them, tell them to take it down. If they don't send letters, get more info about them and keep contacting them. I know several of us would be willing to call them until they have no choice but to remove it. The only way to can battle this sometimes is if we stick together.

[MarkLawrence]

Just a question to everyone - how do you check for you images being on other sites? Is there some kind of batch checking procedure that people use?

[Cary]

Just a question to everyone - how do you check for you images being on other sites? Is there some kind of batch checking procedure that people use?

http://images.google.com - then drag in one of your photos (from JP.net, a.net, etc.)

[megatop412]

Thanks Cary, I was wondering that myself

[MarkLawrence]

Thanks Cary!

[gonzalu]

Also, Tineye

http://www.tineye.com/

[gonzalu]

Nick,

Social media can help tremendously as well. Take to Google+, Twitter and Facebook and immediately mount a campaign to discredit these folks and the ISP(s) hosting the site, the owners of the ISP, the domain registrar, the Country Government itself, and also post in as many sites that have members that do not want their images taken: Flickr forums, Smugmug forums, Pbase, Picasa, etc.

Systematically continue to Mention (@) and hash-tag (#) on twitter all of the above with messages stating that such ISP or person or government is condoning such behavior and the more people that go on that site and find their images will mount the pressure.

Anyone who does this sort of thing has to have a really low sense of worth... or maybe just ignorant!

William, I am sorry, I forgot... but you could still know a thing or two :P

[NIKV69]

I would think the admin will just block the users that are posting the inflammatory stuff. Better to keep pounding away ay the ISP he uses and tell them he is stealing copyrighted stuff. May work better.

[PhilDernerJr]

That works, too. But adding work to the admins in banning people, editing comments, deleting emails, rejecting phone calls, opening letters....also much easier to delete the stolen photo.

[NickPeterman]

Lots of great replies here, thank you all. First allow me to clarify, this IS a domestic website near as I can tell (somewhere in the midwest, WI perhaps, although I don't have the address in front of me. As honored as I would be if other photographers would take to the internet to comment away on the photo and their forums about the situation, I don't want to explicitly condone such a move. What others will do on their own time, however, is of course their business. We are now up to 3 photographers with confirmed stolen images, and I anticipate that number will climb, as I have posted this same message on fence Check, Airliners.net, etc.

I have identified some next steps thanks to the various responses I have gotten, but sadly steps that are likely to take considerable time. In the interim, short of going on their site and starting topics on the thread, posting comments on their Facebook (as Manny suggested), and continuing to comment on the image itself, I am short on ideas. Any other help/input is of course greatly appreciated.

It is somewhat frustrating that a photo that was supposed to be used in an article that is only a few days away from publication will no longer be used due to the current issue with this site.

Nick

[PhilDernerJr]

Nick, not kidding, if you were to be paid for that article, I'd suggest going to small claims court to get your earnings back from, this guy's theft. Little effort and a small fee of like $20.

[NickPeterman]

Not a bad idea. I'm even more pissed having discovered countless more sites that this individual has either posted the image on himself, or where other people have downloaded his post and copied it elsewhere. Anybody know the dimensions of photos on this site when they are hotlinked from flickr? I widely suspect that at least a few of those posters ripped the image from here as well as my flickr.

[Cary]

Nick, not kidding, if you were to be paid for that article, I'd suggest going to small claims court to get your earnings back from, this guy's theft. Little effort and a small fee of like $20.

Slightly off-topic, but that's what I should have done when I was young and dumb, and Aviation Week & Space Technology used one of my photos and never paid me as per our agreement. I noticed they used my photo months after it was published, and when I asked why I wasn't informed or paid, the Assistant Managing Editor, Michael Stearns', response was essentially "YOU need to keep track of when we publish your photos - send us an invoice" (how I'm supposed to know when I'm published when I don't get issues is beyond me). I sent them an invoice, then followed up when I never got paid, which was ignored. I told them to return all my slides, which they did, with the slide carriers in poor shape and slides scattered about.

[gonzalu]

One of the best courses I took in college was Business Law and then followed by a class on Photography Marketing in High School. Great two classes everyone should take, regardless of business.

I am going to repeat what I always say, metadata the hell out of your images. It is an extra layer of protection. If you're really anal, watermark subtly across your main subject!

[NickPeterman]

Thanks again to everyone for the advice, especially Manny for taking extra time to talk me through several things today. I'm now up to 20-some odd sites, foreign and domestic, using the image. One or two sites i could manage, but 20? There is simply no way for me to fight 'em all, especially as I am not a particularly intimidating person on the phone or via email/written communication. I am contemplating registering a ton of my photos with the copyright office, however, to try and cover myself going forward.

I will try to keep up the pressure on Patricksaviation.com, and am teaching myself about DCMA takedown notices to see if I could file one successfully with their ISP. I appreciate the encouragement and many viewpoints y'all expressed. Its a shame that when I should be excited about my first article to be published, I am instead embroiled in this non-sense.

You live and you learn, and I obviously will cover my assets better next time :) I'll let you know what (if anything) changes.



Nick

[Cary]

DMCA notices are easy. Some webhosts even have a DMCA form for you to fill out online, if one of their customers has stolen your content. If they don't, just use the template here: http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/09/dmca-notice-of-copyright-infringement.html

I've used it a good number of times with lots of success. Good luck.

[NickPeterman]

Thanks Cary,

In case anyone is interested in reading it, I have attempted one last non-confrontational means of achieving my goals, posting an "open letter" on their site:

http://www.patricksaviation.com/forums/thread.php?t=4226

Perhaps someone there will have enough guts to actually do something about the problem.


Nick

[Cary]

Nick, if they don't take down the image within a short amount of time, I'd send a DMCA notice to [email protected], as InterServer is the webhost. That should get a prompt reaction.

[NickPeterman]

I have been told to send it to GoDaddy who apparently registered the domain (or who he registered it through I guess)

Where did you find your info, or should I send it to both? Or am I being dumb?

(My bets on the latter)

[Cary]

I have been told to send it to GoDaddy who apparently registered the domain (or who he registered it through I guess)

Where did you find your info, or should I send it to both? Or am I being dumb?

(My bets on the latter)

Doesn't matter where the domain name was registered...that can be totally different than the web host. I found the site's IP address through a traceroute, and that maps to Interserver: http://whois.domaintools.com/66.45.238.155

Just send to [email protected] -- GoDaddy has nothing to do with it.

[NickPeterman]

Roger that Cary. Thank you for the info. If I had 5 bucks for every contradictory recommendation I've gotten today, I could retain me one of them lawyer thingeys ;)

I'll let you guys know what happens

[gonzalu]

Doesn't matter where the domain name was registered...that can be totally different than the web host. I found the site's IP address through a traceroute, and that maps to Interserver: http://whois.domaintools.com/66.45.238.155

Just send to [email protected] -- GoDaddy has nothing to do with it.

Registrars are a huge part of it, Cary. Don;t forget, the registrar is the entity that makes the DNS happen. It is usually the SOA for the DNS and it supports, manages and pays in to the root DNS servers ... a good registrar wants to make sure they are not being used to register domains that steal peoples property.

[Cary]

Registrars are a huge part of it, Cary. Don;t forget, the registrar is the entity that makes the DNS happen. It is usually the SOA for the DNS and it supports, manages and pays in to the root DNS servers ... a good registrar wants to make sure they are not being used to register domains that steal peoples property.

I'm saying GoDaddy isn't the web host. If Interserver doesn't respond to the DMCA (which shouldn't happen at all), then sure, you can go different avenues.

[megatop412]

Wow, good luck Nick, hope you get them to cooperate with you

This is starting to look like a Law and Order episode(one of the good ones starring Jerry Orbach, not that SVU crap)

[NickPeterman]

William,

Thats exactly who I need! Sam Waterson (Jack McCoy) would make the best lawyer for me! Lets call the networks, get the show reinstated.

[NickPeterman]

HE TOOK IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!

[gonzalu]

:cool: Good for you Nick... good luck with the others.