Video: PIO The best example

[Derf]

Can you say WTF was the pilot thinking!?!?!?

http://youtu.be/zxWs9TWfRLA

[steve1840]

OMG!!! I would have hated to be in that cabin!

[threeholerglory]

at least they're current now...

[gonzalu]

Fred, how do you know what happened? For all we know, they could have had a perfectly fine ride down and then something could have happened last minute... how many times you go out in your car and someone cuts you off? Do you abort each time? How do you predict everything that's going to happen? It looked fine up until the very last minute!

[seahawks7757]

I would have loved to been on that!

[snydersnapshots]

Fred, how do you know what happened? For all we know, they could have had a perfectly fine ride down and then something could have happened last minute... how many times you go out in your car and someone cuts you off? Do you abort each time? How do you predict everything that's going to happen? It looked fine up until the very last minute!

Hello from a newbie to the forum. I'm not Fred, but I do have a little time in the pointy end of high-speed aluminum tubing, so I'll give it my best guess here.

Like you said, the approach looked good but it all came apart in the flare. My initial thought was wake turbulence, but after looking at the video a few more times, I think he flared too high and started floating. Not realizing how high he was, he started feeling for the ground by adding a little aileron (If you're 6" or a foot off the ground, this will get the gear on the runway with a minimum amount of fuss). As he slowed, the wing dropped because of the loss of lift caused by the low airspeed and raised spoilers on that side. Once that wing dropped, he countered with opposite aileron. The right wing regained the lift and the left wing dropped because of the spoilers on that side. About that time, the airplane fell out from under him and he pulled back to arrest the sink. He hit and the airplane bounced but didn't have enough airspeed to really fly, so the nose came down. I'm thinking when the airplane got to the gate it received a hard landing inspection and at least two new seat cushions in the cockpit...

The best option to avoid being put on YouTube (or worse--CNN) would have been to go around. Having said that, sometimes you get focused on landing instead of going around. Sometimes you've been flying for twelve hours and really don't want to do another 20 minutes, so you try to make it work. Sometimes pride gets involved and you don't want to admit you screwed up. Every pilot, whether in a small airplane or a jet, has taxied in thinking "Whew. I probably should have gone around out of that one..."

[Derf]

I was just going to say Manny....Bite me....but I like what you said! ;)


Seriously....that was almost a crash..... That was a bad case of PIO, I do not care about the approach, he almost bit it there! In PIO, it usually happens when the airplane is very slow. The correct way to get out of this is POWER. They should have never had let this go on as long as it did without adding power... By the time the engine spools up they may be out of the event...or it may get them out of the event. This was like said in the post above, roll spoilers spoiling the air of the wing that is barley flying to begin with. Watch Your IAS!

[Derf]

to prove Manny's point, here is a verified excellent pilot


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8fnUY2IFAw

[PhilDernerJr]

snydersnapshots, welcome! Great feedback for a great first post. :)

[PhilDernerJr]

to prove Manny's point, here is a verified excellent pilot


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8fnUY2IFAw

Yeah, looks like the shuttle did just what you prescribed...added power. ;)

[snydersnapshots]

That was a bad case of PIO, ... Watch Your IAS!

You, my friend, are the master of understatement...

I was trying to figure out why a pilot would let the airplane go that far. The guy flared high and didn't appear to even try to go around. Here is the scenario I came up with:

Perhaps the pilot transitioned from the 747 to the 777 recently. In the 747 he sat higher and was used to seeing a slightly different picture on landing--it would probably be one that leads to a high flare in a 777. So the guy has been flying for 10 or 12 hours. He's tired. He doesn't have enough time in the 777 for that sight picture to seem "normal" to him on landing, so he falls back on the familiar habit pattern. This leads to a high flare and the float. In his mind, he's only a foot or so off the ground, so he feels for it by dropping the wing, and the rest is history.

As a flight instructor, some of the scariest pilots to fly with were airline pilots who hadn't been in a light plane for several years. They all tried to flare at 50 feet when 3 feet is normal...

[snydersnapshots]

snydersnapshots, welcome! Great feedback for a great first post. :)

Thanks! I'm glad to be here...

[Derf]

You, my friend, are the master of understatement.......


Nice to meet you! ;)


your breakdown sounds really logical...well done and welcome -Fred

[megatop412]

Just watching this is enough to make me want to hurl

[Derf]

Well said....


No sarcasm in this post

[gonzalu]

I was just going to say Manny....Bite me....but I like what you said! ;)

:tongue::tongue:

[stratoduck]

my thought too was that it was wake turbulence; he hit a wing tip vortice which started a string of errors. but further look it appears that the pilot induced the initial roll, indicated by the ailerons and roll spoilers.

i have seen similar before, and i would like to introduce two possibilities.

the first is that the pilot was tired. a sharp pilot will be a step ahead of the plane at every point. but a fatigued pilot can introduce errors, and then correct them but with too much of a time delay, which is another error. it also appears that after the gear dampens on roll oscillations on the runway, the pilot just gives up and lets it slam down. fatigue would explain that as well.

the second possibility i will suggest i have seen many times. there is a crosswind, and in lieu of the pilot dipping the wing into the wind and using the rudder to point the nose down the runway, the pilot tries to align the aircraft with the runway by banking alone. the crosswind then starts blowing it off centerline, and the pilot begins to bank into the wind to fly back to the center of the runway. reaching it, the pilot again tries to to align the aircraft to the runway with ailerons and not the rudder. it never works and it is a desperate attempt to make it work. a weak pilot is also likely to give up once the aircraft is on the ground, letting it slam on with a quick transition from flying to "driving". a proper landing is an elegant transition from flight to taxi.

i think either the two possibilities i suggested, and the previous suggestion are all likely, or a combination.

[USAF Pilot 07]

the second possibility i will suggest i have seen many times. there is a crosswind


Not much of a crosswind. Look at the windsock. Maybe a few knots at best.

Snydersnapshots' analysis seems pretty sound.
It doesn't seem like that terrible of a float though, but if you look around the 0:14 second mark, in an attempt to get the jet down it looks like he's got the jet in at least 10 degrees (if not more) of a right bank.
Once that gear hits (pretty firmly) it looks like instead of allowing the left gear to gently come down, he overcontrols the aircraft which in turn slams the left gear down and causes the right one to come back up. Meanwhile the spoilers, which are probably slaved to the MLG squat switch are trying to automatically deploy and he gets into a self-induced PIO.

Pretty scary landing though - glad it turned out ok.

[gonzalu]

...and he gets into a self-induced PIO.

Pretty scary landing though - glad it turned out ok.

Isn't that statement a wash? PIO is Pilot Induced Oscillations ... did you mean the plane did it to itself or just plain PIO?

[USAF Pilot 07]

Isn't that statement a wash? PIO is Pilot Induced Oscillations ... did you mean the plane did it to itself or just plain PIO?

Haha, yea somewhat redundant I suppose....

[gonzalu]

Haha, yea somewhat redundant I suppose....

:tongue: