question about selling photos

[steve1840]

I have a question about selling my photos. Since joining up with a pit crew at the local speedway I have been using the "downtime" to sit in the stands and take photos of the action on the track as well as some of the action in the pits. I have been approached by a few drivers who have seen my photos on Facebook about possibly buying some photos from me. I have also had some people around the track comment that my photos are better than those of the official track photographer who shoots from the infield during the race.

My question is this..... Since the official photographer obviously has a contract with the track, can I get in trouble if I were to sell photos that I have taken from the stands to drivers that request them from me? I in no way have the intentions of trying to take business away from the official photographer, and thus have not sold any photos yet.

Can anybody on here lend any good advice?

[threeholerglory]

I'd be inclined to say that since they're your photos, and your work with YOUR credits, sell away. It's not your fault these people think your work is superior to the "official" photographers (ok, maybe it is)...but just remember..."if you're not Furst, you're last!"

[moose135]

My question is this..... Since the official photographer obviously has a contract with the track, can I get in trouble if I were to sell photos that I have taken from the stands to drivers that request them from me? I in no way have the intentions of trying to take business away from the official photographer, and thus have not sold any photos yet.

Can anybody on here lend any good advice?
If the official photographer has a contract with the track, you should not be selling photos to drivers. First, it may be in violation of his contract, if he has "exclusive" rights to photo sales. I'm assuming the track is privately owned, and you are granted permission (whether by purchasing a ticket, or being a member of a team) to be on the property. With that permission comes certain restrictions, one of which may be photography. Just like I can't go to Citi Field and try to sell photos I took there without permission from the Mets, you probably can't go to the track and sell photos without permission of the owners/promoters. At best, you may be asked to stop, at worst, you may be asked never to return.

It's also just the wrong thing to do - you know there is an official photographer who has a contract with the track, but you want to ignore that and sell your photos. How would you feel if you had an exclusive contract to provide photos, and someone off the street tried to do the same to you?

And make no mistake about it - you are trying to take business away from the official photographer, or you wouldn't be looking to sell your photos to the drivers/teams.

I don't mean to come off sounding harsh, Steve, I just want to make sure you understand the ramifications of what you are looking to do.

[steve1840]

Moose, I didn't take that at all as you coming off harsh. That is actually the kind of answer I was hoping to get. That is exactly why I HAVE NOT sold any photos.


And make no mistake about it - you are trying to take business away from the official photographer, or you wouldn't be looking to sell your photos to the drivers/teams.

I do however disagree with this comment Moose. But only because maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I originally posted. I never stated that I set out to sell, or advertise that I was going to sell the photos. The premis of this post was to find out if I would be able to accept money from the few drivers that had offered to give me money for my photos. I do thank you for making clear that I should not accept money for photos.

[threeholerglory]

Good points Moose, and thank you for bringing that all up...it's something I never considered and learned a lot from what you said.

[moose135]

I do however disagree with this comment Moose. But only because maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I originally posted. I never stated that I set out to sell, or advertise that I was going to sell the photos. The premis of this post was to find out if I would be able to accept money from the few drivers that had offered to give me money for my photos. I do thank you for making clear that I should not accept money for photos.
True - I guess I should have qualified it a bit.



Good points Moose, and thank you for bringing that all up...it's something I never considered and learned a lot from what you said.
That's what I'm here for. :smile:

[steve1840]

True - I guess I should have qualified it a bit.


No worries Moose. I didn't take offense to anything you said.


That's what I'm here for. :smile:

That's exactly why I posted this thread. Because I knew that someone with as much knowledge as yourself would provide a detailed answer.

[threeholerglory]

regardless..."if you're not Furst, you're last".

just sayin'

[steve1840]

regardless..."if you're not Furst, you're last".

just sayin'

Haha! Ok, Ricky Bobby....

[Zee71]

Good discussion gentlemen......I definitely learned as well.

[megatop412]

yes interesting...and now I know why they weren't going to let me onto the tarmac for our company's plane pull fundraiser a couple weeks ago at PHL...because they already had a photog there that will be selling the photos to our company. Once I found out there was going to be someone there, I didn't even bother going...don't want to come off like a selfish imbecile at a fundraiser for sick kids.

Would've been nice though if they would have told me in April when I first volunteered to do it, so I didn't spend the whole g*ddamn summer getting excited about it instead of the week before the event.

Too bad, they could have had the photos for free

[fk6065]

Steve

Just curious, what do you mean by "joining up with a local pit crew?" Are you an employee of the crew or just given access to hang out in the pit before the race? Because of you were officially affiliated with one of the racers maybe the track has a policy on that racer/team having its own photographer.

As far as being approached by the drivers for pictures rather than taking monetary compensation right now maybe you could just trade the pictures for a team shirt or some other type of team item?

[gonzalu]

Steve (and Moose) ... What contract? Seriously... you have not produced proof that there is such a contract. All that Moose said is valid as long as it is valid :cool: If there is no contract and the track does not have official rules etc., all you need is permission from the "owners" of the property and the drivers, the owners of the vehicles and the sponsors of each photographed vehicle if any. You should definitely sell your photos for good money as long as you are not in violation of existing contracts or rules. But by all means do NOT assume or else someone else will eat your lunch.

As for Mets and Yanks and MLB and NFL , NBA, and each and every major sports venue, the rules are VERY strict! Some venues will even prevent you from bringing a camera other than a very small point and shoot. I was told I could not come in to a Nicks game with a Nikon Coolpix 5700!! because it had a long zoom lens LOL. But yes, it was that bad. However, it is printed on tickets, on their website, etc.

[moose135]

Manny, Steve already said there is an official photographer at the track - that's not something where you just show up and start shooting. Whether it is a written contract, or a handshake deal, he almost assuredly has some sort of agreement with track management. In fact, he may be paying an upfront fee, or a percentage of sales, for the rights to take and sell photos. And while I used Citi Field as an example, if the track is a privately owned and operated facility (which I'm sure it is) they can set any restrictions they want on attendees. Just because they aren't a "major league venue" doesn't take away their ability to do that. So yes, to take and sell photos of the races, you would need permission of the owner/promoter in order to do that. Yes, Steve can certainly ask track management about it, and it doesn't hurt to ask, but I suspect he will be told the official photographer has an exclusive deal on selling photos. I know that if I were the official photographer at a sporting event/venue, I would insist on such a deal.

Fred - if Steve were to go the "team photographer" route, I doubt that would allow him to sell his photos to other teams.

[gonzalu]

Moose, the reason I say it is because I have such contracts with local [and no so local] schools (mostly private as the local schools don't enter into contracts individually and usually have bids out for the entire town, city, district, etc.) and had I just assumed, I would not have made a dime. I never said there isn;t one, but that he should actually find out. I felt as if the "official" was not really official meaning it sounded as a guess. Only Steve can answer that.

Assumptions can lead to a loss of business is what I am saying. And my pointing out the major leagues was just that, that I know full well how it works! No written contract means I have an opportunity to engage in my own. And contracts have limits, clauses, expirations, etc. etc. No one ever got rich assuming someone else already made it!

Steve, I would not take away food from someone in a negative or illegal way, but competitively I am as kind as a Hyena :tongue:

That being said, definitely seek out official information and don't make assumptions... Maybe the contract is up for renewal, maybe the track is not happy with the existing contract and has a clause to replace the existing photographer if the work produced is not to the satisfaction of such a contract, etc.

Ultimately you need to decide if you're gonna be a nice guy or a businessman. The two shall never mix!

[steve1840]

Fred - When I said I joined up with a pit crew, I mean that I am a member of that crew that works on the car weekly both on and off the track. Because I joined up late I didn't get licensed, but next year I will be full-time all season so I will be officially licesned by NASCAR as a crew member. And your idea about trading pics for other team merchandise is a good idea. I never thought about that.

Manny - Yes, there is an official contract between the photographer and the track. From what I had previously found out from the track is that even a media outlet has to get approval from not only the track, but from the photographer as well to get media/infield access on race day. So, I hate to assume, but I would have to assume that he is the only person allowed to profit from photos taken at the track. This is the reason why I had brought up the topic. But I will definitely have to look into it.

[fk6065]

Steve,

Sounds like the photographer is "hooked up" pretty good if he is approving credentialed media access for a NASCAR Event.

As far as being part of the pit crew that must be awesome, GOOD LUCK!

Also if you are with the car & team outside the track you should be able to shoot whatever you want. Maybe you could offer the other drivers shots outside the raceway even if it is just the driver & the car or the driver/car/crew.

What about practive days? Is the Official Photographer there on practice days? If not maybe you could get shots of all the teams racing and use and distribute(sell) those images to the other team.

Again it is probably going to come down to what access the facility is going to allow you to have.

As Manny said all pro sports are extremely restrictive over what they allow and don't allow.

Two years ago the editor of a newspaper that I contribute to contacted the NY Islanders about having me cover a "service appriciation night" for the paper. The editor put me in touch with the Media Director after she spoke to him and I explained to him that I would like to get a few shots of the opening ceremony, no problem offered me ice level access, the puck drop, again no problem ice level and then I asked about a few shots of the game and the Ice Girls who were to be wearing outfits that were from this particular branch of public service.

Big fat NO! He informed me after the pictures of the opening ceremony and puck drop I would not be allowed to take any pictures of the game and would be escorted back to the media area and then out of the arena. I explained to him that I actually had tickets for the game and asked if I copuld just go up to my seats.

NO!

I was told that I would have to leave the building and put all my camera gear in my car and then I could re enter the facility using my purchased ticket.

Another time I was hired by a magazine to shoot pictures of Citi Field during it's construction. I had an escort from the Mets with me the entire time, which was fine, but he had a list of what I could and could not photograph.

At the time they were demolishing the old Shea Stadium. When I stopped to get a few pictures of the demolition I was told to please stop no pictures of Shea allowed.


Even if you can't sell your images I would still make an effort to share them with the other teams as it will allow you to meet other drivers and teams which I am sure will only help build relationships wit hthe other teams.

Good luck!

[gonzalu]

I also forget to mention that it cases where there is a huge area to cover, you need a team and ONE photographer at a Race Track of any size is impossible to properly cover by yourself. So, perhaps they are in need of an assistant or a team meber (a member of the media team) etc. That is also a way to get noticed, paid, recognized, accepted, allowed.. whatever it takes to be official :cool:

[steve1840]

As far as being part of the pit crew that must be awesome, GOOD LUCK!

What about practive days? Is the Official Photographer there on practice days?

Even if you can't sell your images I would still make an effort to share them with the other teams as it will allow you to meet other drivers and teams which I am sure will only help build relationships wit hthe other teams.

Good luck!

Yeah, even though it is just a small town short track, it is fun and exciting being a part of a weekly Saturday night race team. Its also cool to get to meet and know some of the guys in the bigger series that we have at our track and meet some national stars that show up to race from time to time. Not sure what names you know from the NASCAR circuits, but Johnny Benson stopped in this memorial day weekend to race an ISMA Super Modified. Pretty cool having a name that big at our small track.

As far as practice days go, we do all our practice on Saturdays, the day we race.

And since I have been posting my weekly captures on my Facebook page, many of the drivers have been noticing them, which has seemed to have spread interest in my page as I have been getting requests from drivers at the track that I have not yet personally met yet. So, yes it is a good way to build relationships with the other teams and drivers.