Trip to JFK / McGuire AFB / Dover AFB

[[email protected]]

Me and a buddy are going on a trip to the U.S. in May (we are from europe).

We will be there for a week and has plans to do some spotting around JFK, Mcguire AFB, Dover AFB and Andrews AFB (The 2011 JSOH Airshow)

Is there anyone who will give advice on the following:

Are there problems in spotting around JFK?
The use of scanners in New York around JFK?

Are there problems in spotting around the McGuire / Dover?
The use of scanner around Mcguire / Dover?
Which AFB has the greatest opportunity to see traffic durring weekdays?
(Our primarily objecticve is the large transport-aircraft C5 and C17)

Thanks in advance! :-)

[steve1840]

For JFK, this site offers a great selection of spotting guides. Very informative, and helpful. Also, if you're going to be visiting JFK, just post a message letting us know when you'll be in, and I'm sure some of us will be around and more than willing to meet up with you guys and show you the different areas to spot from. Ans scanners are fine in NY as long as you're not using them to scanthe police/fire frequencies. Alot of us use scanners when we are outspotting.

As for the AFBs, I can not offer up any advice on those. Although, if you're going to be in the NYC area, I have been tols that Stewart AFB in Newburgh offers good chances to see C-5s.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the quick reply steve1840, we will surely spend some time around JFK.
And 100-400mm will be enough for spotting around JFK ??

Are there others who can help with info about McGuire & Dover AFB?

[steve1840]

No problem. A 100-400 is what many of us Canon users use. From most of the spotting locations, that is the lens you would be using the most. When are you planning your trip for?

I am not sure who would be able to help with info about McGuire or Dover AFB.

[[email protected]]

sometime in May
Andrews AFB airshow is 21-22 May, so we will be in U.S. some days before that.

[chrisparypa]

Im going to Andrew AFB as well... and week before to Langley, you should think about going to Langley AFB, great air show, looks like they trying to impress industry :)

About JFK you have guide, and I believe one of our guys will help you to find your way around.

DOVER spotting... I'll be honest... I wouldn't try, Right now Im no more than 1 hour from Dover and I've been trying to spott at Dover few times but at least 80% of my visits the military personnel asked me to leave and stop taking pictures. It's kind of ok to take a picture during your visit at Air Mobility Command Museum. You should ask in the museum what the rules are fro the spotting around DOVER. There is not much going on at Dover, don;t take me wrong, sometimes it is going on a lot :) but just a once in a while. Most of the time you will catch C-5 Galaxy and C-17 Globmaster III, GA traffic and some 747 Cargos from: Atlas and Evergreen. I would recommend to skip Dover

Here is a guide to Dover Spotting by Steve Holzinger who is well known videographer,

http://www.stevesairshow.com/spotting-dov.html

I have never spot at McGuire, but If you wanna catch Andrews arrivals for the Air Show probably;y Branch Station Parking lot (or something like that) thats the place where is a checkpoint and shuttel bus to the Base on the Air Show day, on Thursday and Friday there will be a lot of people for sure spotting. Yopu can watch air show on Friday from that parking lot but Im not really sure aboutairrivals on thursday or so... Im planning Langley AFB Air Show week before Andrews and you should add this event to your trip :) At Langley you can spot :) Lots of Raptors are flying there and you can catch lots of nice planes here is the guide from Steve's Holzinger website:

http://www.stevesairshow.com/spotting-lfi.html

After Andrews AFB we will have big show at Milville, NJ if you wanna extend your visit hahahah, unfortunately this show is no go for me...

Hope to see you at Andrews and.... at Langley :)

BTW: If you expecting to see both Blue Angels and Tbirds then sorry BA's are going somewhere else unfortunately, it was the plan to have both teams and the first schedule confirmed that but later BA's changed the plans....

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the info guys. We appreciate it and we'll consider it again if we want to spend time spotting in McGuire and Dover.
If not then we'll look forward to the Andrews AFB Airshow :cool:

I had actually read it somewhere else, that BA would not come anyway.

[Steven Holzinger]

Don't go to McGuire. DON'T. There are no good spots for any of the runways and even if you think you've found one, you're going to get arrested. The residents there are extra vigilant and they've never seen spotters before and they will report you. It doesn't matter what town you're in - doesn't matter what town's police (or even security forces or NJSP) has jurisdiction, you will be told to leave or even arrested.

As far as Dover is concerned, it's hit or miss. The only thing worth seeing there is the AMC Museum and they aren't open every day. Take Chris' advice and skip it.

Do plan on going to Langley AFB's airshow.

[AMCMuseum]

Just to set the record straight and to let you know about a great new venue. You may photograph aircraft from on the grounds of the AMC Musuem at Dover AFB Delaware. We are close enough that you will smell the tires smoke when a C-5 lands (really) and you won't need a big telephoto lens to fill the frame.

We are open every day except Monday from 9 to 4, always FREE , and we have a lot of rare large transports, some of which are open for tours.

But the best part is that within about 90 days you will be able to go up in the original Dover AF tower that has been relocated to the musuem and view our collection and all the traffic in the area. There will even be live feed from the active tower.

There is not a high degree of activity at Dover compared to a metropolitan airport but we get C-5, C-17, 747,KC-10, DC-10 and other large airframes.

[PhilDernerJr]

AMCMuseum, welcome and thank you for adding that info!

As for McGuire, I also say DO NOT.

[megatop412]

Has someone actually been arrested at McGuire? I find that a bit extreme even if it's military. Or do you get arrested if you refuse to leave or you argue about it with them.

Being asked to leave is one thing, but getting arrested right off the bat is another totally. I just cannot make excuses for what is essentially an infringment upon legal behavior, 9/11 or not. What's next, it'll be illegal to look up in the sky? I know this is an ongoing thing, but it just disgusts me.

[PhilDernerJr]

I don't knwo if you'll outright get arrested, but they have a very tight perimeter and do not take kindly to odd behavior, which is almost understandable considering they were the intended targert of a failed terror plot a couple years ago.

It's just not worth it, and considering all of the above, I think if someone goes for it anyway...they are just being careless.

[Cary]

Just to set the record straight and to let you know about a great new venue. You may photograph aircraft from on the grounds of the AMC Musuem at Dover AFB Delaware. We are close enough that you will smell the tires smoke when a C-5 lands (really) and you won't need a big telephoto lens to fill the frame.

We are open every day except Monday from 9 to 4, always FREE , and we have a lot of rare large transports, some of which are open for tours.

But the best part is that within about 90 days you will be able to go up in the original Dover AF tower that has been relocated to the musuem and view our collection and all the traffic in the area. There will even be live feed from the active tower.

There is not a high degree of activity at Dover compared to a metropolitan airport but we get C-5, C-17, 747,KC-10, DC-10 and other large airframes.

Great to see an AMC Museum rep here! I usually stop by the museum every time I go down to Delaware to photograph wildlife. Really great collection of planes, and very nice staff...highly recommended, and I'm not even a big military aviation buff. There are normally some Kalitta Falcons parked right behind the fence, and C-5s beyond that, although I think my lens was too big for any gaps in the fence, so I didn't try for photos. The tower sounds great! Will it all be enclosed in glass, or will there be an outdoor "balcony" portion too?

Here's one shot I took of the Nightingale a few months ago:

1847387
Also, one inside the C-130:

1713694

[Steven Holzinger]

Has someone actually been arrested at McGuire? I find that a bit extreme even if it's military. Or do you get arrested if you refuse to leave or you argue about it with them.

Being asked to leave is one thing, but getting arrested right off the bat is another totally. I just cannot make excuses for what is essentially an infringment upon legal behavior, 9/11 or not. What's next, it'll be illegal to look up in the sky? I know this is an ongoing thing, but it just disgusts me.

I almost did back in July or August of 2005. I was taking pictures (!) in a shopping center lot and they were using Runway 36 and someone did call somebody on me. Thankfully I left before someone stopped by to check me out. Like I said, the residents there have never seen plane spotters anywhere around the base and they will consider you suspicious. It's also a HUGE OPSEC issue there. There are flights that routine go in and out of the base that are on a need-to-know basis and these almost always involve airplanes that are not supposed to be photographed. That info came right out of a pilot I met that flies those aircraft.

Phil is dead-on with his statement. There is so much security around the entire JB-MDL complex that makes the base almost like Whiteman AFB. It also has to do with the foiled terror attack (which actually happened within weeks of the 2008 airshow). Trust me - DO NOT GO ANYWHERE NEAR McGUIRE.

As far as spotting at military bases in the United States, it varies between bases. For instance, you see that you will most likely be arrested at and around McGuire. Dover would be a little less strict, mainly because of the AMC Museum (which I recommend - I believe the KC-135 is now on display). Langley AFB is almost as strict as McGuire but so long as you don't take pictures of the base, you should be fine. NAS Oceana is not as strict - in fact, they almost welcome spotters - especially at the Oceana Blvd spot. Be careful and be smart and when we say don't go spotting at certain places, DON'T.

(BTW, for the record, I live 25 miles away from McGuire)

[chrisparypa]

Whats up Steve :)

I will take a trip to Dover to see what is going on in Museum :) maybe next week. If spotting from the museum is OK I`ll take my chance :)) I just need to see some planes, Im so hungry for spotting !!!

[megatop412]

I almost did back in July or August of 2005. I was taking pictures (!) in a shopping center lot and they were using Runway 36 and someone did call somebody on me. Thankfully I left before someone stopped by to check me out. Like I said, the residents there have never seen plane spotters anywhere around the base and they will consider you suspicious. It's also a HUGE OPSEC issue there. There are flights that routine go in and out of the base that are on a need-to-know basis and these almost always involve airplanes that are not supposed to be photographed. That info came right out of a pilot I met that flies those aircraft.

Phil is dead-on with his statement. There is so much security around the entire JB-MDL complex that makes the base almost like Whiteman AFB. It also has to do with the foiled terror attack (which actually happened within weeks of the 2008 airshow). Trust me - DO NOT GO ANYWHERE NEAR McGUIRE.

As far as spotting at military bases in the United States, it varies between bases. For instance, you see that you will most likely be arrested at and around McGuire. Dover would be a little less strict, mainly because of the AMC Museum (which I recommend - I believe the KC-135 is now on display). Langley AFB is almost as strict as McGuire but so long as you don't take pictures of the base, you should be fine. NAS Oceana is not as strict - in fact, they almost welcome spotters - especially at the Oceana Blvd spot. Be careful and be smart and when we say don't go spotting at certain places, DON'T.

(BTW, for the record, I live 25 miles away from McGuire)

I live about 20 miles away from McGuire. So does that mean that I could have problems getting shots of aircraft with my 500mm lens from my balcony? Because I occasionally see KC-10's about 3-5k. This idea that pictures of planes cannot be taken when they're flying in the air is totally ridiculous. It is a preposterous assumption, given that my tax dollars PAID for that airframe. If the military doesn't want me doing this, then they need to relocate away from where people live. I'm sure Beale was tight as sh** back in the Blackbird days, but that's a pretty remote area. Or at least it was. If something is "top secret", then keep it in the desert for God's sake not have it descending next to the Northeast Corridor.

Look, I'm not trying to be a dick about it. Steve and Phil I believe the both of you and I'm not a person to stir up trouble, so I have no plans to go out there to prove a point. But I never want to "just accept it" as the way things are, because that's always the first step in the line towards giving up our hard-won constitutional rights. It may not be as vital as the free speech precept, but the last time I checked, there was a phrase in our Constitution called "the pursuit of happiness".

[[email protected]]

Thanks guys for all the replies.. we really appreciate it. :cool:

It's a shame the authorities are so hard against the spotters, especially for a guy like me who work in an airport and is very close to the aircraft every day.

It sounds great with the tower at Dover, just a shame that we are there before it opens. :mad:

I guess the plan for now could be:

Stay the first day in NY and do some spotting around JFK. Next morning, we will pick our rented car and drive to washington.
Spend some time in Washington before the Airshow, we will probably visit the Air / Space Museum, and if time permits it, catch some Airshow arrivals on thursday.

[USAF Pilot 07]

I don't think anyone is arguing that you can't take pictures of airborne aircraft. McGuire AFB is in between two of the most populated and busiest metropolitan areas in the Northeast, and while I'm sure in an ideal world the AF would love for there to be no photographing of any assets, I wouldn't say they are trying to hide anything from anyone at the base.

That being said, you have to realize, the community around McGuire has no idea of who planespotters are, and after a foiled terrorist attack a few years ago that was very close to being carried out, no one is going to take chances with anything that looks suspicious. While you'd be well within your legal rights to take pictures outside of the base on public land, keep in mind there aren't very many good spotting locations, and the one that is decent for RWY36 arrivals is a shopping center parking lot, which I assume is private property. Therefore, it would be well within the owner's right to ask you to leave if they felt you were loitering. There is also a NJ State Trooper barracks located not too far from the base, the local police station is right down the road and there are many military police that frequently travel down that road. Therefore, the odds of you being seen shortly after setting up shop, and at least stopped and questioned is pretty high.

On a related note, the foiled attack was almost carried out by employees who worked at a local pizza place. Since then, a lot of local business have worked hard to regain the trust and confidence of the base to be able to conduct business with them. Therefore, I don't think you'll find too many who will come to your defense if you are on their property and the police ask you to leave.

All that being said, with the exception of the KC10 :cool:, there aren't many other aircraft worth spending a day sitting around waiting to shoot, which is why most people are saying it's not worth the trip down there.

Hope this helps!

[NoGreenBox]

My Two Cents..

Good luck on your stay here in the states guys, count me amongst the many from here would be happy to show you around. I too will also be at Andrews (or so is the plan)... Just wanted to point out a couple of things..

1. Make sure with the Air and Space Museum in DC you take a ride out to the New annex at Dulles. It is well worth the ride and admission is free, although you do have to pay to park. I would even say that the annex is a better stop than the original, especially if you are also into commercial aviation-- which you are.

2. Although to some that live in the area LGA doesnt have a great deal of appeal, I think its worth a stop. Especially since you have seen much of what you will see at Kennedy on your side of the pond. You have likely never seen a Frontier A320 or an SWA B737 or even a Us Airways Express SF340 or DH8 at LHR or AMS (wouldnt THAT be a sight!) So, I would think you should definitely make some time for LGA.

Plus, you will have a large volume of aircraft using a single runway to land, so you get a steady stream. Yes, we have all seen so many DL A319s and US A320s and CRJs, we may not even bother to pull out the camera sometimes, but the Runway 4 or 31 approaches or Runway 4 departures will be an impressive site-- especially for buffs who havent seen it before. I would strongly suggest check the weather and flightaware or ATIS on that day and try to make it out. I do not think you will regret it. Maybe LGA in the morning, then stop at the Queens Museum for the Panorama, then JFK in the afternoon.

All my best.. Chris

PS... if I am going out to LGA the day you guys are going, Id be happy to meet up, just send me a private message or email.

[Gerard]

As for the AFBs, I can not offer up any advice on those. Although, if you're going to be in the NYC area, I have been tols that Stewart AFB in Newburgh offers good chances to see C-5s.

Back in the 90s I used to visit Stewart when I stayed the weekend at my mom-in-laws house in western Ct. About an hour drive on I-84. Like any military base its pretty much hit or miss
to see something flying. There were many times I got to see C-5s taking off and doing touch and goes. Others times nothing. There is a road adjacent to the runways that gives you
great views of the runway the C-5s use and I've never been hassled there. Many people park there. I was stopped by the Military Police once when I was taking pics of a few medevac Hueys that had landed. This was on the other side of the airport by Richmor Aviation. We had a nice talk, I explained my hobby, he was going to take my film, he radioed in to
his superiors and in the end he let me go. I had my two sons with me (they were toddlers) so maybe that helped in letting me go.

[Steven Holzinger]

When I'm at Flying W and I see McGuire traffic, I always point my camera at it! So in that case, go for it. We could always use more photos of military jets over New Jersey. :smile:

I'd follow what USAF Pilot 07 states with regarding spotting at McGuire. He is spot on with the second paragraph he wrote. There is one other spot for McGuire traffic but I ask security at that spot about once a year whether or not we can photograph the planes from there and I've always gotten a no. That even included times where I would have been on "official business." There is one FANTASTIC spot that I've driven past once that used to be open to the public but it is now off limits because of a gate.

For now, we'll have to settle with the altitude they fly over megatop's place. It's a shame I don't see any McGuire traffic flying over where I live...

[chrisparypa]

All that topic forced me to take that trip :P I had nothing to do few days ago and decided to check the museum and teh base traffic

Few pictures from the trip, like you can notice not much is going on around Dover AFB, I had EG B747 taxing very close from the fence and that was the only "cool" moment of the visit. I like the museum, everything in very good condition, nice people around however I couldn't find anyone to fly simulators, oh well maybe next time I don;t live to far from base can take one more trip any day :)

Dover AFB is making little plans for Air Show next year, thats what the Museum Manager said, and is all about the Jet team in 2012 ... if they get it they have it if not they not... there is little chance for BA and little bigger chance for T-birds so maybe maybe :) There was no air shows at Dover after 2009 I think cuz of the constracion going on around the runways and taxiways

The quality is not perfect, air was very weird, lots of heat haze unfortunately
http://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisparypa/sets/72157626389016890/

[gonzalu]

Nice set of pictures Chris. Is that your little one at the controls? :-)

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the current report Chris from Dover AFB and the museum :).
We will visit the museum on our trip from NY to DC.

[chrisparypa]

Nice set of pictures Chris. Is that your little one at the controls? :-)


Sorry for the little OT :) My daughter is always part of my aviation adventures :) before every air show she is so excited about the Blue Angels and so disappointed if instead of Blue Angels, T-birds performing :P
Oh yee my daughter is a big aviation enthusiast :)))
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4045/4678411909_eb1a0c1df7_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4978116008_b1dbf22495_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3336/4624761070_f08d0b606b_o.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/4624760904_d89373fa67_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/4624782820_720ee7124b_o.jpg


To finish the OT.... Dover museum is vary cool, not much traffic, spotting from the museum property is OK. I think after the season I will try to be there at least couple times a month. About an hour drive from where Im staying in Maryland.

[steve1840]

Nice set Chris. I will definitely have to make my way down to the museum this summer.