More TSA Stupidity

[cancidas]

EMSHighway, please don't take this one too personally:http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/
As the Chalk Leader for my flight home from Afghanistan, I witnessed the following:When we were on our way back from Afghanistan, we flew out of Baghram Air Field. We went through customs at BAF, full body scanners (no groping), had all of our bags searched, the whole nine yards.Our first stop was Shannon, Ireland to refuel. After that, we had to stop at Indianapolis, Indiana to drop off about 100 folks from the Indiana National Guard. That’s where the stupid started.First, everyone was forced to get off the plane–even though the plane wasn’t refueling again. All 330 people got off that plane, rather than let the 100 people from the ING get off. We were filed from the plane to a holding area. No vending machines, no means of escape. Only a male/female latrine.It’s probably important to mention that we were ALL carrying weapons. Everyone was carrying an M4 Carbine (rifle) and some, like me, were also carrying an M9 pistol. Oh, and our gunners had M-240B machine guns. Of course, the weapons weren’t loaded. And we had been cleared of all ammo well before we even got to customs at Baghram, then AGAIN at customs.The TSA personnel at the airport seriously considered making us unload all of the baggage from the SECURE cargo hold to have it reinspected. Keep in mind, this cargo had been unpacked, inspected piece by piece by U.S. Customs officials, resealed and had bomb-sniffing dogs give it a one-hour run through. After two hours of sitting in this holding area, the TSA decided not to reinspect our Cargo–just to inspect us again: Soldiers on the way home from war, who had already been inspected, reinspected and kept in a SECURE holding area for 2 hours. Ok, whatever. So we lined up to go through security AGAIN.This is probably another good time to remind you all that all of us were carrying actual assault rifles, and some of us were also carrying pistols.So we’re in line, going through one at a time. One of our Soldiers had his Gerber multi-tool. TSA confiscated it. Kind of ridiculous, but it gets better. A few minutes later, a guy empties his pockets and has a pair of nail clippers. Nail clippers. TSA informs the Soldier that they’re going to confiscate his nail clippers. The conversation went something like this:TSA Guy: You can’t take those on the plane.Soldier: What? I’ve had them since we left country.TSA Guy: You’re not suppose to have them.Soldier: Why?TSA Guy: They can be used as a weapon.Soldier: [touches butt stock of the rifle] But this actually is a weapon. And I’m allowed to take it on.TSA Guy: Yeah but you can’t use it to take over the plane. You don’t have bullets.Soldier: And I can take over the plane with nail clippers?TSA Guy: [awkward silence]Me: Dude, just give him your damn nail clippers so we can get the f**k out of here. I’ll buy you a new set.Soldier: [hands nail clippers to TSA guy, makes it through security]This might be a good time to remind everyone that approximately 233 people re-boarded that plane with assault rifles, pistols, and machine guns–but nothing that could have been used as a weapon.amazing... simply amazing...

[njgtr82]

All it takes is a little story like this to remind me that maybe I don't work for the dumbest gov't agency after all

[mirrodie]

incoming......

[Gerard]

incoming......

LMAO!!!!:biggrin:

[Gerard]

EMS may think we are picking on the TSA but holy smokes you cannot turn on the TV, put on the radio, pick up a newspaper or log on to the web without seeing some type of story
concerning the scanners/pat down!!
As they say it has gone VIRAL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cancidas]

EMS may think we are picking on the TSA but holy smokes you cannot turn on the TV, put on the radio, pick up a newspaper or log on to the web without seeing some type of story
concerning the scanners/pat down!!
As they say it has gone VIRAL!!!!!!!!!!!!

EMS is a friend, which is why i don't want him taking it personally. and this isn't about the pat down, it's about the fact that the agents deplaned a full flight instead of just letting 100 people off, then didn't let soldiers carrying weapons take a nail clipper onboard. i know rules are rules, but this one is just rather dumb from the beginning.

[MarkLawrence]

And they keep coming and coming.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40278427/ns/travel-news/

[emshighway]

EMSHighway, please don't take this one too personally:http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/amazing... simply amazing...

To my recollection this happen many years ago not recently. There was something more about this then what was reported but I'm sorry I don't recall what it was nor can I find it right now.

I can tell you that when Soldiers come through LGA they are treated exactly like they should be, American Heroes. We have had the New York National Guard (and others) come through and at the checkpoint a lane will be opened just for them. We post all the service flags on the wall. I had a new TSA officer at the walk-through Metal Detector who was a little unsure what to do about the soldiers boots. I explained to him their boots have steel shanks and a dog tag attached to their laces. They keep their boots on and shook each hand and thanked them as they came through. The weapons were put directly in the cargo hold.

Each year, American Airlines hosts the Medal of Honor flight to DC. Flags and Honor Guards are set up to salute these heroes.

Sgt. Guinta, the most recent Medal of Honor recipient arrived yesterday and he was met by honor guards from the USSS, FBI, PAPD, DHS ands many more.

Family of the military are allowed to go to the gate to see their loved one off. Many don't know this but if I see a soldier with his family I make sure it happens.

We at LGA have many veterans working TSA and other areas and we make sure the military is honored properly. We assist the patriot guard in their efforts to do the same.

I would like to say this happen everywhere but all I can say in my piece of this world it does.

[emshighway]

EMS may think we are picking on the TSA but holy smokes you cannot turn on the TV, put on the radio, pick up a newspaper or log on to the web without seeing some type of story
concerning the scanners/pat down!!
As they say it has gone VIRAL!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the flavor of the week. There isn't much else going on in the news so it makes good fodder.

[emshighway]

And they keep coming and coming.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40278427/ns/travel-news/

Read this also. Don't have first hand knowledge of the whole case but what I could gather she Opted Out of the Whole Body Imager so a standard pat down needs to be done (SOP, not the officers choice). Since their was an anomaly it has to be cleared and a resolution pat down performed (the more invasive method). It is unfortunate but with the Intel we have the latest method has proved to be explosives in underwear (two Russian women in their bra's which they did detonate and the infamous Christmas Day underwear bomber).

At the present time the Back-Scatter and Millimeter Wave machines are the best that is out their. I personally favor newer technology that uses thermal imaging. There are no privacy or radiation issues. It was presented to TSA but there are issues with it and their is only one company presenting it. I would hope with the recent publicity other companies will introduce alternatives.

[cancidas]

EMS one thing i don't understand is when and where was it decided to change the SOP? seems the jump from metal detectors to full body pat downs is an extreme one. now, i understand that the pat down is only mandatory if one were to opt out of the scanner, but why can't one just go through the metal detector as they are in more checkpoints that don't have a scanner just yet? are metal detector-screen pax also sbjected to the patdown? just seems to me like one is not equal to the other.

[emshighway]

There was actually two changes that happen basically at the same time which is why there may be some confusion. The first change was to the patdown procedure which changed October 29th. The patdown changed from using hand held metal detectors, which due to the current threat are obsolete, to a more hands on patdown called a standard patdown. The White House mandated AIT (Advanced Imaging Technology) deployment by the end of the year. The first 150 went out, now an additional 350 need to be deployed. Next year it will be 1000. There is a rush to get the machines in before the Holidays so our people can be trained up.

Anyone who alarms a Walkthrough Metal Detector (WTMD), even after multiple tries to divest everything, is subject to the SPD. Also there is a random factor that you can be subject to. There is a more enhanced patdown that a Lead or Supervisor would have to do if alarms couldn't be cleared but the percentage is small).

On lanes where there is an AIT, it is the primary form of screening but as not to have a line waiting for the AIT (which does take longer than the WTMD), the WTMD is used as a means to keep the lines moving.

Right now due to the size of the AIT it is limited to only checkpoints that had the space (lucky American at LGA). TSA HQ does have plans to deploy them at every lane and do away with the WTMDs(let's just keep it at that for now... :rolleyes:)

[cancidas]

There was actually two changes that happen basically at the same time which is why there may be some confusion. The first change was to the patdown procedure which changed October 29th. The patdown changed from using hand held metal detectors, which due to the current threat are obsolete, to a more hands on patdown called a standard patdown. The White House mandated AIT (Advanced Imaging Technology) deployment by the end of the year. The first 150 went out, now an additional 350 need to be deployed. Next year it will be 1000. There is a rush to get the machines in before the Holidays so our people can be trained up.

Anyone who alarms a Walkthrough Metal Detector (WTMD), even after multiple tries to divest everything, is subject to the SPD. Also there is a random factor that you can be subject to. There is a more enhanced patdown that a Lead or Supervisor would have to do if alarms couldn't be cleared but the percentage is small).

On lanes where there is an AIT, it is the primary form of screening but as not to have a line waiting for the AIT (which does take longer than the WTMD), the WTMD is used as a means to keep the lines moving.

Right now due to the size of the AIT it is limited to only checkpoints that had the space (lucky American at LGA). TSA HQ does have plans to deploy them at every lane and do away with the WTMDs(let's just keep it at that for now... :rolleyes:)


that explains that, something that i wasn't aware of before. thanks.

[JetBlueAirwaysFan]

I didn't think that the TSA had any authority over military ops coming from overseas.

[gonzalu]

As far as I am concerned, if someone just finished getting shot at, after sleeping for 5 minutes every 24 hours with one eye open and the anxiety of being killed while going to the can, that someone can pretty much go as they please IN THE COUNTRY for which they did it for in the first place.

Let's see, these folks just finished putting up with the above and MUCH MORE and they are a security risk to our country? Airlines? Bridges? LOL. So, I just finished taking a bullet for my country. Let me bring down that airliner I have always wanted to. This may be a good time.

COUNTERPOINT: The TSA agents must get GOLD MEDALS for doing their job no matter what. They are NOT to use their gut feelings, they have been likely trained and drilled to NO LET ANYONE get through... As far as they are concerned, EVERYONE is a possible mark. If Soldiers get through without any checks, the next terrorist will simply get dressed up in camo and walk right through with an M-16 and whatever means he needs to disarm marshal(s) and enter the cockpit and take over... I am not saying I am for it, but you MUST understand the situation may not be as simple as the one sided view we have. We have NEVER heard from a TSA agent on the forum have we?

I would get fired immediately because if I see a Soldier or Fireman after doing their jobs, I usually extend higher than normal courtesy for obvious reasons. But then again, that may be why I would be a horrible TSA agent.

[emshighway]

We have NEVER heard from a TSA agent on the forum have we? .

Sorry, I'm probably the best you will get, middle management.

[gonzalu]

OK... apologies, did not know you were "involved" :cool: But seriously, we could go back and forth with PROPER vs. BLINDLY doing a job. I bet 90% of the time, it is by the book and once in a while, Grandma gets a free pass... I have gotten trhough with a nail clipper on an outbound flight and got it taken away on the return leg.

[emshighway]

EMS is a friend, which is why i don't want him taking it personally. and this isn't about the pat down, it's about the fact that the agents deplaned a full flight instead of just letting 100 people off, then didn't let soldiers carrying weapons take a nail clipper onboard. i know rules are rules, but this one is just rather dumb from the beginning.

No problem Matt, like I said this was a while ago and there was another reason they were deplaned. As with any job you have people that go by the letter of the law (SOP) and others who take the SOP and use common sense.

It seems that any issues that happen in the last nine years is being brought back and being portrayed as it just happen. This incident and the video of the three year old are prime examples.

[emshighway]

OK... apologies, did not know you were "involved" :cool: But seriously, we could go back and forth with PROPER vs. BLINDLY doing a job. I bet 90% of the time, it is by the book and once in a while, Grandma gets a free pass... I have gotten trhough with a nail clipper on an outbound flight and got it taken away on the return leg.

The threat has changed and we need to adjust to them. nail clippers is not the issue now but in the beginning there was a list of pointy items that became prohibited. Like I said to Matt, there are people who take the letter of the SOP as absolute and other who use the SOP and common sense to perform their duties.

[coachrowsey]

The threat has changed and we need to adjust to them. nail clippers is not the issue now but in the beginning there was a list of pointy items that became prohibited. Like I said to Matt, there are people who take the letter of the SOP as absolute and other who use the SOP and common sense to perform their duties.

Question for you EMS:
IF the threats have changed & these new assaults are necessary what is TSA holding back ? It must be to dangerous to fly.

[emshighway]

Question for you EMS:
IF the threats have changed & these new assaults are necessary what is TSA holding back ? It must be to dangerous to fly.

Well since you use the term assaults I would expect you are not actually looking for a legitimate answer from me.

[coachrowsey]

Well since you use the term assaults I would expect you are not actually looking for a legitimate answer from me.
EMS:
Thats what I consider them. I have it on good authority that here if a TSO touches some one where they should not & leo is called & the person wants them arrested they will be arrested. I called the DA's office & asked them about it. The reply was if an arrest is made & we have enough evidence we will take the case.

And yes I really would like an answer. Thanks.

[emshighway]

EMS:
Thats what I consider them. I have it on good authority that here if a TSO touches some one where they should not & leo is called & the person wants them arrested they will be arrested. I called the DA's office & asked them about it. The reply was if an arrest is made & we have enough evidence we will take the case.

And yes I really would like an answer. Thanks.

Yes, if a TSO was to go beyond the SOP then yes they should be arrested but since the patdown performed is described and trained specifically they are following federally mandated procedure and as such there is no specific intent of assault.

You want any more questions call the TSA Office of Civil Rights and Liberties at 1-877-336-4872..

[threeholerglory]

Back in EARLY 2002 when my dad owned his 182, he used to fly into BOS for business to repair machinery. Therefor, he had a travel tool case with all necessary tools to dis-assemble his 182 and probably a small airliner for that matter, and his pocket knife. Even in the FBO you have to go through security at BOS. The tool case went through without a problem and he was stopped for having the knife on his belt clip. They were going to confiscate the knife. The official on duty claimed that it was a security threat and that my dad could not bring the knife on the plane. At this point I should mention that he was flying solo. I also beg to question how a solo occupant of an aircraft can be assumed to be liable to hold a 2.5" pocket knife to his own throat and hijack himself in his own airplane. He had the tools returned to him outside the security booth, put the knife in the tool case, had it RESCANNED, went through the metal detector and was sent on his way. Not to rip on anyone personally by ANY means, but not even private air travel is immune to stupidity.

[MarkLawrence]

I know the stories are coming out of the woodwork at the moment, and in all honesty, it's not putting TSA in a good light. I read this one this evening (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/) and while it hasn't been taken up with TSA yet, I'm sure it will. While this will probably come down to a case of "he said he said", but if it is true, the humiliation in this case should definitely have repercussions - and I hope it does.

[emshighway]

I know the stories are coming out of the woodwork at the moment, and in all honesty, it's not putting TSA in a good light. I read this one this evening (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/) and while it hasn't been taken up with TSA yet, I'm sure it will. While this will probably come down to a case of "he said he said", but if it is true, the humiliation in this case should definitely have repercussions - and I hope it does.

Can't say anything but I feel sorry for the guy.

[coachrowsey]

Yes, if a TSO was to go beyond the SOP then yes they should be arrested but since the patdown performed is described and trained specifically they are following federally mandated procedure and as such there is no specific intent of assault.

You want any more questions call the TSA Office of Civil Rights and Liberties at 1-877-336-4872..
So you are in fact telling me it it ok in the name of the govt. that a clerk can touch "my junk" or other places that would be assault out side the airport ?

[emshighway]

I'm stealing this from Steve from Flyingwithfish.com but it explains the point:

For those unfamiliar with the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt4.html) it reads “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

While the new TSA enhanced pat downs may violate the Fourth Amendment on the surface, what most people are not aware of is that the 9th Circuit Court of the United States (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/) ruled on the search of passengers in airports back in 1973, which effectively suspends limited aspects of the Fourth Amendment while undergoing airport security screening.

In 1973 the 9th Circuit Court rules on U.S. vs Davis, 482 F.2d 893, 908 (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2005/06/07/0430243.pdf), there are key pieces of wording that give the TSA its power to search essentially any way they choose to. The key wording in this ruling includes “noting that airport screenings are considered to be administrative searches because they are conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme, where the essential administrative purpose is to prevent the carrying of weapons or explosives aboard aircraft.”

U.S. vs Davis goes onto to state “[an administrative search is allowed if] no more intrusive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives, confined in good faith to that purpose, and passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.”

U.S. vs Davis was upheld by the 9th Circuit Court in 1986 in U.S. vs Pulido-Baquerizo, 800 F.2d 899, 901 with this ruling “To judge reasonableness, it is necessary to balance the right to be free of intrusion with society’s interest in safe air travel.”

These 9th Circuit Court ruling laid the path for the creation of Public Law 107-71, the Aviation Transportation and Security Act (http://www.tsa.gov/.../Aviation_and_Transportation_Security_Act_ATSA_Publ ic_Law_107_1771.pdf), which was virtually unopposed by legislators when it was it was signed into law on the 19th of November 2001 by President George W. Bush. This law laid the groundwork for the Transportation Security Administration and the evolution of its current security procedures.

[Gerard]

Question for you EMS:
IF the threats have changed & these new assaults are necessary what is TSA holding back ? It must be to dangerous to fly.

Well we are ar WAR!!
And the TSA are updating their security procedures to make us safer with the latest technology. Like anything new the kinks need to be worked out both on the technical side
and the human side. Like I wrote before I have no problem going through the scanner. Hell I just did 42 days of radiotherapy what do I care about a few more rads blasting my body. :biggrin:
What annoys me are the stories of rude and insensitive TSA officers doing rough patdowns. A little diversity/human resource training can fix that and make everyone happy.

[Derf]

Everyone loves to shake their fists on government bureaucracy. EMS highway…. It is easy to go after the TSA as there are so many people do not want their doctors to touch them. People do not want rads and do not want to be touched. Uninformed people take this and it will multiply the stress they are already going thru just to get on the plane itself. I for the life of me can not figure why you admit working for the TSA as no matter what happens, you are always on the loosing side of the argument….Even thou you are always correct in my eyes. You have Changed my view of your agency, sure there are lots of pimple faced little bastards that can not make a good decision to save their life that you have working for you that can bring the TSA in a bad light….but being a “Government Bureaucracy” that nobody really wants, you will always loose these battles….. UNTIL THE NEXT AVIATION ATTACK.


Sorry for posting what you have known all along, Thank you for your posts as it made a difference to me, but why do you bang you head at every post when it does not do much more than boil your blood? Just curious….and I owe you a round in respect SIR!

[emshighway]

Everyone loves to shake their fists on government bureaucracy. EMS highway…. It is easy to go after the TSA as there are so many people do not want their doctors to touch them. People do not want rads and do not want to be touched. Uninformed people take this and it will multiply the stress they are already going thru just to get on the plane itself. I for the life of me can not figure why you admit working for the TSA as no matter what happens, you are always on the loosing side of the argument….Even thou you are always correct in my eyes. You have Changed my view of your agency, sure there are lots of pimple faced little bastards that can not make a good decision to save their life that you have working for you that can bring the TSA in a bad light….but being a “Government Bureaucracy” that nobody really wants, you will always loose these battles….. UNTIL THE NEXT AVIATION ATTACK.


Sorry for posting what you have known all along, Thank you for your posts as it made a difference to me, but why do you bang you head at every post when it does not do much more than boil your blood? Just curious….and I owe you a round in respect SIR!

I relay the information here for people like you, Phil, Matt and many others here who have an interest in aviation or are in the business. I think you need to know why things are going on and what are both sides of the story so you can make your own decisions.

Are there TSOs who don't have the customer service skills? Sure, that's everywhere. There is training but all the training in the world isn't going to change everyone. There are also some very great front line people who work very hard and when people call them names then yes my blood boils. They are just doing their jobs. They are not the ones making the policies but are the targets.
I don't mind answering serious questions but I've been doing this for a while so I know a baited question.

[JetBlueAirwaysFan]

Body Scanners are not inappropriate as long as no one else can see the images. They are deleted immediately after screening and nothing is detected. The pat downs or "feel ups" as it seems are inappropriate. We have NEVER been this invested in aviation security EVER. If we want to be searched like that in private, TSA should be required to honor it. Take this article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news
He asked to be searched in private and the TSA rolled their eyes then proceeded to try to talk him out of it. There shouldn't be any eye rolling or trying to change someone's mind. We do have that right still, don't we? He was not objecting to the search but just simply to be searched out of the public eye.

[emshighway]

Body Scanners are not inappropriate as long as no one else can see the images. They are deleted immediately after screening and nothing is detected. The pat downs or "feel ups" as it seems are inappropriate. We have NEVER been this invested in aviation security EVER. If we want to be searched like that in private, TSA should be required to honor it. Take this article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news
He asked to be searched in private and the TSA rolled their eyes then proceeded to try to talk him out of it. There shouldn't be any eye rolling or trying to change someone's mind. We do have that right still, don't we? He was not objecting to the search but just simply to be searched out of the public eye.

TSO must offer the passenger the option of private screening. I have spent a lot of time building those glass private screening booths so they better use them at LGA.

[JetBlueAirwaysFan]

Glass?! What's so private about glass? Can't you see right through it?

[emshighway]

Glass?! What's so private about glass? Can't you see right through it?

Of course not. It is smoked glass.

[JetBlueAirwaysFan]

I'm stealing this from Steve from Flyingwithfish.com but it explains the point:

For those unfamiliar with the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/amdt4.html) it reads “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

While the new TSA enhanced pat downs may violate the Fourth Amendment on the surface, what most people are not aware of is that the 9th Circuit Court of the United States (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/) ruled on the search of passengers in airports back in 1973, which effectively suspends limited aspects of the Fourth Amendment while undergoing airport security screening.

In 1973 the 9th Circuit Court rules on U.S. vs Davis, 482 F.2d 893, 908 (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2005/06/07/0430243.pdf), there are key pieces of wording that give the TSA its power to search essentially any way they choose to. The key wording in this ruling includes “noting that airport screenings are considered to be administrative searches because they are conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme, where the essential administrative purpose is to prevent the carrying of weapons or explosives aboard aircraft.”

U.S. vs Davis goes onto to state “[an administrative search is allowed if] no more intrusive or intensive than necessary, in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives, confined in good faith to that purpose, and passengers may avoid the search by electing not to fly.”

U.S. vs Davis was upheld by the 9th Circuit Court in 1986 in U.S. vs Pulido-Baquerizo, 800 F.2d 899, 901 with this ruling “To judge reasonableness, it is necessary to balance the right to be free of intrusion with society’s interest in safe air travel.”

These 9th Circuit Court ruling laid the path for the creation of Public Law 107-71, the Aviation Transportation and Security Act (http://www.tsa.gov/.../Aviation_and_Transportation_Security_Act_ATSA_Publ ic_Law_107_1771.pdf), which was virtually unopposed by legislators when it was it was signed into law on the 19th of November 2001 by President George W. Bush. This law laid the groundwork for the Transportation Security Administration and the evolution of its current security procedures.

While this is a valid arguement, I am not sure this is the sole justification. Everyone knows that the President of the United States has the power of executive order. An executive order is basically the President passing a law without involving Congress. Of the many executive orders put into place, one allows for the Federal Government to assume control of our nations airports during a crisis. We have been in one since September 11, 2001 and the TSA is the Federal Government's way of taking over the airports.

Like I said before I'm opposed to the pat downs, not necessarily the body scanners since they are pretty anonymous from what I have seen. The TSO who sees the images does not see the person inside if everything checks out. Basically what I am saying is the body scanners are perfectly legal by executive order.