What would have been different had 9/11 not happened?

[hiss srq]

What do you think would have happened diffrently if 9/11 had not taken place in the US airline industry? Fleet's mergers etc....

Personally, I think the 727 would have had a slightly longer life extension, I do not think we would have soo many furloughs industry wide though I do think US would have remained in a bad position though perhaps not as severe of one. The closure of DCA for so long certainly hurt them even more than they were already hurting....

Opinions?

[PhilDernerJr]

United would not have gotten the bailouts, and they'd have died the death that any failing company in a capitalist country should when you fail. (harsh? sorry)

[NIKV69]

United would not have gotten the bailouts, and they'd have died the death that any failing company in a capitalist country should when you fail. (harsh? sorry)




Why do you hate them so much Phil? Were they the only carrier to get money? How do you know they would have failed if they didn't suffer two days of no business and lord knows how long of very slow buiness after 9/11? Are you this critical of DL or US? They are now the biggest airline in the world and with some good managment should prosper in the future. Deal with it.

[FlyingColors]

I know for a fact Continental would have kept their DC-10s for a few more years.

[MarkLawrence]

TWA might still be flying??

[T-Bird76]

TWA might still be flying??

Mark TWA was already bought out by AA by the time 9/11 took place. The buyout took place in late 2000, 9/11 simply fast tracked intergrating TWA into AA's structure. Even a month before 9/11 TWA at JFK was only operating a dozen flight or so. TWA was a goner well before 9/11, 9/11 would have killed them if AA didn't buy them out.

Phil as for UAL, UAL would not have needed bailouts since the industry would not have been hit in the manner it was and more than likely would still be the World's second largest carrier as it was at the time of 9/11.

[lijk604]

Here's my view of a few different things:

LGA would still be a mostly Boeing airport (727, 737, 757), and not the Embraer/Airbus facility it is today.

Northwest would probably still be a stand alone carrier.

United would still be flying 767's coast to coast, and would still fly LHR & NRT from JFK.

This last one I'm not as sure of, but....I doubt Embraer would be as large a player as they are today.

[emshighway]

Thousands of families would still have their loved ones. I wouldn't have not gone to the two dozen funerals I did. Friends would still be here. I wouldn't be working for DHS as there wouldn't be one which means I probably wouldn't be on this board.

[PhilDernerJr]

Why do you hate them so much Phil? Were they the only carrier to get money? How do you know they would have failed if they didn't suffer two days of no business and lord knows how long of very slow buiness after 9/11? Are you this critical of DL or US? They are now the biggest airline in the world and with some good managment should prosper in the future. Deal with it.

I just don't like United and that's my opinion.

[coachrowsey]

No TSA. NO harassment at the airport. Not being treated like a criminal every time you fly. No "strip search" machines. I would be able to fly. Need I go on.

[T-Bird76]

No TSA. NO harassment at the airport. Not being treated like a criminal every time you fly. No "strip search" machines. I would be able to fly. Need I go on.

Hmmmm with all my travel I never have been treated like a criminal...not once. I've seen some TSA that look like criminals but never have been treated as such. Do you act in a fashion that the raises suspicion with the TSA? If so then they are doing their job, you should calm down a bit when going through security. Its not a hard process, I can get through in as little as 30 seconds...it really comes down to the traveller's behavoir and attitude...not the TSA. In fact the TSA’s customer service has made marked improvement over the past few years that today I think they are a very professional bunch. They may not be perfect and I have had my opinion on them but I also give credit where credit is due.

You can fly....you choose not to for whatever reason that really doesn't exist in the real world. The TSA didn't stop you from flying....you did.


Oh if 9/11 never happened I also would have eventually visited the top of the WTC.

[MarkLawrence]

Mark TWA was already bought out by AA by the time 9/11 took place. The buyout took place in late 2000, 9/11 simply fast tracked intergrating TWA into AA's structure. Even a month before 9/11 TWA at JFK was only operating a dozen flight or so. TWA was a goner well before 9/11, 9/11 would have killed them if AA didn't buy them out.

Shows how memory goes with age :lol: I thought the buyout was after 9/11. But - yes - you are right about the ex-TWA people - that did hurt them a whole lot. We had a friend who worked for the old TWA - he got past the last series of cuts that AA did on the TWA people - and that was counter staff that had joined before 1968 were safe - Bill joined in 1967. He stayed until his final retirement and still got all his benefits which was only right. He had lots of memories of the old TWA - sadly - Bill has passed and I will miss the stories he told...

[emshighway]

No TSA. NO harassment at the airport. Not being treated like a criminal every time you fly. No "strip search" machines. I would be able to fly. Need I go on.

You do know there were checkpoints before 9/11? You are not harassed, you receive the treatment you portray.

[coachrowsey]

No TSA. NO harassment at the airport. Not being treated like a criminal every time you fly. No "strip search" machines. I would be able to fly. Need I go on.

You do know there were checkpoints before 9/11? You are not harassed, you receive the treatment you portray.

Of course I know that, but water was not dangerous. kids snow globes weren't dangerous, no taking the shoes of, no stupid id checks. I'm out of here before I get more worked up.

To you & everyone who lost loved ones & friends on that day. I'm very sorry & you are in my thoughts & prayers.

[FlyingColors]

No TSA. NO harassment at the airport. Not being treated like a criminal every time you fly. No "strip search" machines. I would be able to fly. Need I go on.

I'm going to have to stand on this side of the fence folks and agree.

And as for "marked improvement " well, when you hit bottom you can only go up"

[coachrowsey]

No TSA. NO harassment at the airport. Not being treated like a criminal every time you fly. No "strip search" machines. I would be able to fly. Need I go on.

I'm going to have to stand on this side of the fence folks and agree.

And as for "marked improvement " well, when you hit bottom you can only go up"
:borat: :borat:

[hiss srq]

Aaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnd back to the regularly scheduled programming. I think Midway would have stuck around and perhaps eventually been a good target for an AirTran takeover. Song and Ted would have never been born .....

[emshighway]

No TSA. NO harassment at the airport. Not being treated like a criminal every time you fly. No "strip search" machines. I would be able to fly. Need I go on.

You do know there were checkpoints before 9/11? You are not harassed, you receive the treatment you portray.

Of course I know that, but water was not dangerous. kids snow globes weren't dangerous, no taking the shoes of, no stupid id checks. I'm out of here before I get more worked up.

To you & everyone who lost loved ones & friends on that day. I'm very sorry & you are in my thoughts & prayers.

but water was not dangerous (at the time). kids snow globes weren't dangerous (at the time), no taking the shoes of (because there wasn't someone who tried to blow up his sneakers, at the time)

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers.

[mirrodie]

I'm going to have to stand on this side of the fence folks and agree.
And as for "marked improvement " well, when you hit bottom you can only go up"

I can see where Tom is coming from, to an extent, but Mike is spot on.

Long gone are my days of TSA bashing. I just call a spade a spade. Some TSA employees are good and some are bad. Same for mechanics, teachers and doctors.


but water was not dangerous (at the time)

And water is still not dangerous, unless its in the Gulf right now south of Louisiana shores.


IN addition to the above, one to add:

Concorde would have lived out it service to its original retirement date. IIRC it was originally due to retire in 2007 or 2010. Tangential fact: after it was taken out of service following the AF accident, she flew toward JFK on 9/11/01 but was turned back along with the rest of the US bound a/c.

Other thoughts if 9/11 were not here: less fallen carriers. Midway comes to mind. a stronger economy, and no losses as EMS poignantly reminded us.

[emshighway]

but water was not dangerous (at the time)

And water is still not dangerous, unless its in the Gulf right now south of Louisiana shores.



In general correct, unless someone is trying to introduce liquid explosive disguised as water. This is the time we are in now.


We are heading toward the use of technology to decrease the need for liquid bans, shoe and laptop removal. The current Back Scatter and Millimeter Wave whole body imagers are the technology of the moment but there is a thermal imagers being reviewed that do what the current WBIs do without the intrusion. X-Ray machines what do spectrometry will sense liquid explosives. There are liquid scanners being deployed soon which will assist with the screening of medical liquids.

[Midnight Mike]

Hmmmm with all my travel I never have been treated like a criminal...not once. I've seen some TSA that look like criminals but never have been treated as such. Do you act in a fashion that the raises suspicion with the TSA? If so then they are doing their job, you should calm down a bit when going through security. Its not a hard process, I can get through in as little as 30 seconds...it really comes down to the traveller's behavoir and attitude...not the TSA. In fact the TSA’s customer service has made marked improvement over the past few years that today I think they are a very professional bunch. They may not be perfect and I have had my opinion on them but I also give credit where credit is due.

You can fly....you choose not to for whatever reason that really doesn't exist in the real world. The TSA didn't stop you from flying....you did.


Oh if 9/11 never happened I also would have eventually visited the top of the WTC.

Never had any problems with the TSA & I have travelled both international & domestic.

Once I was stupid, & left knives in my carryon bag, after I was detained & calmly explained my stupidity after I questioned by the TSA, the police & quick background check, I was let go, the TSA even offered to mail the knives home for me.....

I

[mirrodie]

I was let go, the TSA even offered to mail the knives home for me.....

I

WEll that certainly is a step in the right direction.

The day we got engaged, Highheels and I took a quick flight ISP-PVD when WN ran that route. (Loved it. a 19 minute wheels up to wheels down joy ride on a 737)

Since security was so crazy, I'll never forget. We had a backpack and in it, I had a bottle of wine, A corkscrew opener, and an diamond ring (!!). Of course, I was about to propose that day and the last thing I needed was the TSA to blow it, so I stashed the ring into my wallet. Of course, all my concentration was on that so I forgot about the corkscrew.

So at ISP, the TSA was about to confiscate it. I asked them to hold onto it, maybe in an envelope, since I'd be back later through that airport at 9pm that same evening. No go. And no they would not mail it either. So I ran back to the car and threw it in the car and that was that.

Bought a corkscrew once in Providence and wouldn't you know it, I forgot about it (again, for good reason, my mind was on other things) and we boarded the plane at PVD with the corkscrew...

And I know I mentioned other odd issues with them, like negotiating what products to bring on the plane and having agents talk **** about us in creole, only to have me bust them. But those are the few *********s among what I feel is a gradually improving lot.

[NLovis]

Well the way I see it is fleets would definitly be different now. The DC-9 might still be flying commercally (more then just DAL). There would be more older 737's. But the big part would be the 747's. There would be alot more flying in the sky now commercally. The 747-100 would have died out sooner since the sudden rush of military contacts brought more back into service for several years. The -200 would probably be heading out the door now and there would be more 3 holers, L-1011's and DC-10/MD-11's flying. Douglas might still be in business to take away business from Airbus and Emb. Lockheed might still be in the commercial market as well. The A380 might have come sooner and the 787 might have never been developed.

[Matt Molnar]

You're probably right about some of those things but...

Douglas might still be in business to take away business from Airbus and Emb. Lockheed might still be in the commercial market as well.
MD merged with Boeing four years before 9/11, and Lockheed stopped making L-1011s 17 years earlier.

[T-Bird76]

Well the way I see it is fleets would definitly be different now. The DC-9 might still be flying commercally (more then just DAL). There would be more older 737's. But the big part would be the 747's. There would be alot more flying in the sky now commercally. The 747-100 would have died out sooner since the sudden rush of military contacts brought more back into service for several years. The -200 would probably be heading out the door now and there would be more 3 holers, L-1011's and DC-10/MD-11's flying. Douglas might still be in business to take away business from Airbus and Emb. Lockheed might still be in the commercial market as well. The A380 might have come sooner and the 787 might have never been developed.

Ah.....the DC-9 is still flying...I suggest you go visit South America and Latin America, you just might see a few of them. Even before 9/11 most were scheduled for retirement. Lockheed was out of the commercial business 20 years before 9/11, and Douglas was already owned by Boeing in 1997. NLovis before you post you really should fact check yourself.

[emshighway]

I was let go, the TSA even offered to mail the knives home for me.....

I

WEll that certainly is a step in the right direction.

The day we got engaged, Highheels and I took a quick flight ISP-PVD when WN ran that route. (Loved it. a 19 minute wheels up to wheels down joy ride on a 737)

Since security was so crazy, I'll never forget. We had a backpack and in it, I had a bottle of wine, A corkscrew opener, and an diamond ring (!!). Of course, I was about to propose that day and the last thing I needed was the TSA to blow it, so I stashed the ring into my wallet. Of course, all my concentration was on that so I forgot about the corkscrew.

So at ISP, the TSA was about to confiscate it. I asked them to hold onto it, maybe in an envelope, since I'd be back later through that airport at 9pm that same evening. No go. And no they would not mail it either. So I ran back to the car and threw it in the car and that was that.

Bought a corkscrew once in Providence and wouldn't you know it, I forgot about it (again, for good reason, my mind was on other things) and we boarded the plane at PVD with the corkscrew...

And I know I mentioned other odd issues with them, like negotiating what products to bring on the plane and having agents talk **** about us in creole, only to have me bust them. But those are the few *********s among what I feel is a gradually improving lot.

Well then, ISP did their job and PVD didn't. Could you imagine how much space we would need to "hold" items for people.

[Delta777LR]

Well the way I see it is fleets would definitly be different now. The DC-9 might still be flying commercally (more then just DAL). There would be more older 737's. But the big part would be the 747's. There would be alot more flying in the sky now commercally. The 747-100 would have died out sooner since the sudden rush of military contacts brought more back into service for several years. The -200 would probably be heading out the door now and there would be more 3 holers, L-1011's and DC-10/MD-11's flying. Douglas might still be in business to take away business from Airbus and Emb. Lockheed might still be in the commercial market as well. The A380 might have come sooner and the 787 might have never been developed.

Also to mention about the 747s, by the mid 90s, the orders started to get slow ever since the Airbus A330/A340 and Boeing 777 was devoloped.. Airlines were slowly retiring their 747s mostly the older versions by the late 90s.. For the 3 holers, the MD-11s were not performing very well, and airlines did retire or sold alot of them to cargo carriers by late 90s/2000 espeacialy that Boeing wanted to close the MD-11 line anyway.. The 727s were still a big hit but airlines already had planned to retire those from early 2000 on.

[Speedbagel_001]

I would suppose that we'd all be able to go to any good spotting location and not attracting so much attention while merely trying to photograph aircraft!