Kid giving instruction over ATC JFK

[emshighway]

http://liveatc-archive.s3.amazonaws.com ... roller.mp3 (http://liveatc-archive.s3.amazonaws.com/new-kjfk-controller.mp3)

Apparently the News Media is going crazy on this. Personally I think he did a good job.

[eric8669]

that was great.....

[emshighway]

MYFOXNY.COM - The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating an air traffic controller who apparently let a child speak to pilots over the radio from the control tower at John F. Kennedy Airport.

The child made five transmissions, and the pilots actually enthusiastically responded to him. The child appeared to be supervised.

But aviation experts, including a retired Delta pilot, say that having a child on the radio is a bad idea because lives hang on every radio transmission.

In fact, only FAA-licensed controllers are supposed to communicate with airplanes.

[emshighway]

I think the kid did a great job and the ATCs involved obviously were in total control. Unfortunately they will be hung out to dry by the FAA. People are just too tight assed on every little thing now. This may be one time LiveATC did the people they follow a dis-service because that is where everyone is getting the feed from.

[cancidas]

I think the kid did a great job and the ATCs involved obviously were in total control. Unfortunately they will be hung out to dry by the FAA. People are just too tight assed on every little thing now. This may be one time LiveATC did the people they follow a dis-service because that is where everyone is getting the feed from.
couldn't agree with you more...

i say, if they're that desperate for new controllers maybe they ought to start hiring some of the CTI candidates that have been waiting for years already... :lol:

[njgtr82]

I think the kid did a great job and the ATCs involved obviously were in total control. Unfortunately they will be hung out to dry by the FAA. People are just too tight assed on every little thing now. This may be one time LiveATC did the people they follow a dis-service because that is where everyone is getting the feed from.
couldn't agree with you more...

i say, if they're that desperate for new controllers maybe they ought to start hiring some of the CTI candidates that have been waiting for years already... :lol:

They're waiting for FAA Reauthorization for more hiring... write your senator, takes 1 minute
http://www.unionvoice.org/campaign/faar ... jcfYqbDFRE (http://www.unionvoice.org/campaign/faareauthorizations1451?rk=Z7AjcfYqbDFRE)

[Matt Molnar]

NYCAviation:

:arrow: Little Kid Takes Over JFK Airport Control Tower (http://nycaviation.com/2010/03/03/bored-child-takes-over-jfk-control-tower-during-winter-break/)
A recording of a young boy giving takeoff clearances to flights at JFK Airport has landed at least one air traffic controller in hot water with the FAA.

[NLovis]

NYCAviation:

:arrow: Little Kid Takes Over JFK Airport Control Tower (http://nycaviation.com/2010/03/03/bored-child-takes-over-jfk-control-tower-during-winter-break/)
A recording of a young boy giving takeoff clearances to flights at JFK Airport has landed at least one air traffic controller in hot water with the FAA.
Watch out for that boot. Its a painful one.

[gettysburgerrn]

Thats gonna hurt.....Ken

[AirtrafficController]

I think the kid did a great job and the ATCs involved obviously were in total control. Unfortunately they will be hung out to dry by the FAA. People are just too tight assed on every little thing now. This may be one time LiveATC did the people they follow a dis-service because that is where everyone is getting the feed from.

Couldn't agree more.

[FlyingColors]

I think the kid did a great job and the ATCs involved obviously were in total control. Unfortunately they will be hung out to dry by the FAA. People are just too tight assed on every little thing now. This may be one time LiveATC did the people they follow a dis-service because that is where everyone is getting the feed from.

Ditto:
And I'm sure the guys in the tower as well in the jetliners had a brighter day hearing a kid take some interest in their industry.
What a shame.
Such a sick twisted world we live in today.
I let my kids visit me at work while I'm working on a truck- that does not mean an 8 year old is repairing and engine for a customer on his own. Just crazy.
With parks being shut down and the like I guess the only things left for kids are video games, over eating and drugs. No place left for them to let the wonder of the big world run free.

[Nassau Flyers]

Since this hasn't been posted yet - what is your take on the situation that occured recently.

Quick recap (CNN):
The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating after an air traffic controller at New York's John F. Kennedy Airport brought his young child to work and allowed him to communicate with planes.

Full Story Here http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/03/03/air.traffic.child/

Most pilots didn't seem to mind but with the recent texas crash and the general nationwide focus on aviation security and over all process, what's your take on this?

[mirrodie]

I think the kid did a great job and the ATCs involved obviously were in total control. Unfortunately they will be hung out to dry by the FAA. People are just too tight assed on every little thing now. This may be one time LiveATC did the people they follow a dis-service because that is where everyone is getting the feed from.

How could the kid do a bad job? It's not all that hard to regurgitate what you are told to say? And with that thought in mind, I feel bad for the image of ATC that it unfortunately conveys....that even a kid, or a chimp, can do it... just tell them what to say or do. No IQ requirement necessary. That is the WRONG message it conveys.

Many are saying its blown out of proportion....yet consider if it was an emergency, how does that change the impact of that single act?




I let my kids visit me at work while I'm working on a truck- that does not mean an 8 year old is repairing and engine for a customer on his own. Just crazy.


But Mike, as the proud owner of your business, would you let them work on a customer's truck at all? Your truck is one thing but a clients? And consider how your clientele might see this. Its one thing to have my son come in and see an ocular anomaly one of my patients (w/ the patient's permission may experience, its a whole other ballgame to say, "Here, do this."

And yes, I have ridden diesel cabs before, honked the horn and taken up through throttle 8, but what 2 things make this significant. That its recorded for the public to see and that it was at a major airport.

[hiss srq]

I despise every aspect of the FAA. It is a shame someone or multiple people are going to get fired for this. Why? Because some hungry media yuppy needed a story and this was the "big break".

[mirrodie]

....Im confused.... you despise the FAA? Or the media for outing them? Or perhaps liveatc.com for making it well accessible?

[hiss srq]

Both. The FAA is going to hang this guy and the only reason it is going to happen is because the media made a public fuss. If the media hadnt made a fuss life would go on as usual. So for that reason I detest the FAA because their standards are only applied when being watched or commented on. Some story hungry reporter is going to likely crash a career to sell a few papers. It is a shame. The kid did a pretty good job. He didn't give the winds but other than that A OK in my book!

[NIKV69]

Kid took over the tower? Hardly but it was a dumb move. Hope he doesn't get fired but he should lose some pay.

[Idlewild]

My guess is the FAA is scared of another Aeroflot Flight 593-like debacle. I don't think a peep would have been heard if let's say this happened at a slow airport such as Wilkes-Barre. But you can't expect to get away, orat the last, not hear about it if you put your kid on any of the Tr-State airports. Especially JFK.

[m.marra]

I think the kid did a great job and the ATCs involved obviously were in total control. Unfortunately they will be hung out to dry by the FAA. People are just too tight assed on every little thing now. This may be one time LiveATC did the people they follow a dis-service because that is where everyone is getting the feed from.
Ditto:
And I'm sure the guys in the tower as well in the jetliners had a brighter day hearing a kid take some interest in their industry.
What a shame.
Such a sick twisted world we live in today.
I let my kids visit me at work while I'm working on a truck- that does not mean an 8 year old is repairing and engine for a customer on his own. Just crazy.
With parks being shut down and the like I guess the only things left for kids are video games, over eating and drugs. No place left for them to let the wonder of the big world run free.


I'm sure this put a smile on everyone’s face after that. I think this is BS. Now if the controller had stepped away from the console then this would be another story, but he didn't and obviously he was standing right there watching the kid. Personally, I think the kid did an outstanding job. It's ashamed that in today’s society there is no room for a little humor. Even as a RR professional we get reprimanded for the occasional non-professional radio remarks.
I think the media is the ones to blame for blowing this out of proportion and drilling it to the public that an actual child had taken over the control tower. I think in a stressful environment such as JFK, this was huge relief to anyone listening and just made their day for them.

Respectfully,

[NYARTCCFAN]

Shouldn't the FAA be worrying about the way the aircraft are kept up to date and how maintainence is conducted on the planes and put into effect better procedures on repairing these aircraft. Oh I forgot its the FAA we are talking about. Man have we bocome an anal country about the littlest things.

[Matt Molnar]

Sorry, it's cute to hear this kid, and we're all a little bit jealous of him, but it was absolutely wrong to do it and whoever is responsible needs to be punished.

Controllers make enough mistakes without the distraction of having kids around. A controller who is taking the time to recite instructions of what the kid should say and then waiting for him to repeat (and hopefully not mangle) those instructions to aircraft carrying hundreds of people means the controller is not 100% intuned to his job. Had there been a runway incursion or some other emergency, there could have been critical seconds lost as the controllers are heard laughing it up in the tower.

[emshighway]

FAA investigating a second incident the next day involving the same controller but a different child. two transmissions were made.

[Tom_Turner]

Its the FAA's call. They can do whatever they want. I want to caution everyone from expressing any opinions or opening up discussion to anything contrary to what the FAA decides. They may not get everything right, but they have a big job to do and we owe them our support.

oh wait... wrong forum.... sorry... :wink:

Tom

[Speedbird1]

How about the guy who drove an MTA train to its terminal with no experience? What about kids who drive their dad's car and who crash? I am ambivalent about this. Since these brothers were supervised by their ATC certified dad it's not so bad. But are you guys sure that a real ATC was telling the kid exactly what to say? I feel that this is not a good precedent. The controllers involved should be reprimanded but not fired. We all like a good joke but this could have been disastrous.

[Speedbird1]

I learned the name of the controller who had his sons clear the aircraft for take-off on Feb.16-17. It must have been "Take your child to work week". I don't know if I should reveal his name. I can say that he resides in Suffolk County. Imagine if a neurosurgeon used his son to remove a tumor!

[hiss srq]

Do not reveal his name on a public forum. Absolutely not. Do not share it with anyone if you know it as well.

[moose135]

Sorry, it's cute to hear this kid, and we're all a little bit jealous of him, but it was absolutely wrong to do it and whoever is responsible needs to be punished.
Exactly! You want to bring your kid to work to see what goes on in the tower, great, but letting him on the radio? Sorry, that's way over the line.

[LGA777]

One thing I don't like about what the controller did is he put his coworkers and supv in harms way career wise. I would like to think at least some of the other controllers in the cab on these 2 nights where uncomfortable that the children where on the radio but where reluctant to say anything to stop it. Nothing wrong with having the kids their for a visit, just not taking the visit so far.

LGA777

[Futterman]

Good point, Ron.

You have to wonder how it played out, however. The supervisor may have encouraged all of this to take place. Maybe not. Does it even matter?

Also, I realize that controlling at JFK is unique, but I don't think the risks of having a kid key the mic are really that extraordinary. Student pilots of ALL ages talk over the radio with less finesse and calm than the controller's son did here, and any foul-ups in the practice area with a 172 can be just disastrous since, when I fly, I rely on ATC as well as other pilots' transmissions for situational awareness.

So if the public goes at this with pitchforks and torches in the name of safety, I can only imagine what they'll do when they find out that their quiet neighborhood GA airports are actually alive with fledgling student pilots, many of whom may even be younger than the controller's son.

fRamB30E9mU

Brian

[Speedbird1]

I won't reveal the ATC's name but it was revealed by Katy Couric this evening on the CBS Evening News so it's not such a well-guarded secret. His name will probably be published in tomorrows' papers. Incidentally, the closure of JFK's Rwy 31L/13R was shown on all the network newscasts last night.

[moose135]

So if the public goes at this with pitchforks and torches in the name of safety, I can only imagine what they'll do when they find out that their quiet neighborhood GA airports are actually alive with fledgling student pilots, many of whom may even be younger than the controller's son.
I doubt that, Brian - while I haven't read anything yet listing the child's age, from most stories, and listening to the audio, he sounds very young. The minimum age to solo is 16, and 17 for a PPL. Yes, someone younger than that could take flight lessons, but they would have an instructor next to them.


I won't reveal the ATC's name but it was revealed by Katy Couric this evening on the CBS Evening News so it's not such a well-guarded secret. His name will probably be published in tomorrows' papers. Incidentally, the closure of JFK's Rwy 31L/13R was shown on all the network newscasts last night.
It's already on the web in some news stories.

This showed appalling judgment on the part of the controller, as well as his supervisor, in allowing this to happen not once, but twice on separate occasions. If they think this sort of behavior is acceptable, what else are they allowing to pass?

[NIKV69]

You have to wonder how it played out, however. The supervisor may have encouraged all of this to take place. Maybe not. Does it even matter?


Unfortunately it will come back to who was in charge at the time. Only really matters to him and his career because he will probably be held accountable. As a leader he or she should have known better. Maybe the controller did this without him knowing. It's a total grey area but there was a breakdown somewhere.


I can only imagine what they'll do when they find out that their quiet neighborhood GA airports are actually alive with fledgling student pilots, many of whom may even be younger than the controller's son.


I seriously doubt this.



I won't reveal the ATC's name but it was revealed by Katy Couric this evening on the CBS Evening News so it's not such a well-guarded secret. His name will probably be published in tomorrows' papers.

Well let them do it. No reason for you to. Link the source.

[emshighway]

The news media is releasing his name and at his home. He has twin boys.

[NLovis]

The news media is releasing his name and at his home. He has twin boys.
Well game over on your privacy buddy.

[Speedbird1]

Yes, the controller's name is revealed this morning as I predicted. In a way I sympathize with him as it was just routine departures involved but suppose it had been an emergency? I am a retired teacher. Every year, each school in every borough had a kid as "Principal of the Day". He would basically watch what the real principal does and sit in the principal's chair in the office but he would never be allowed to speak to parents about their child's progress or make decisions as such. This incident is amusing about the controllers sons. The guy who snuck through a security exit at EWR to get a final goodby kiss from his fiance was also amusing but now he could be sentenced to jail. As planespotters we are all aware of how our standing near runways looks suspicious especially if we are listening to scanners although we are merely doing our hobby so we can sympathize with the controller. Nowadays, every "off the cuff" statement or being in the wrong place can be misconstrued as suspicious. What basically was a dad wanting to show his sons how being a controller backfired into front-page news. I recall in the good old days when you could speak freely and stand near runways with zoom lenses and nobody would bother you. I often stood at the end of Rwy 31R by the "WW" taxiway and would wave to pilots taxying-off. Try doing that now ! Sad times.

[Derf]

Good Parent, Bad Call!

Obviously the dad knew that the son could do it because the child was spot on. I was very impressed with the child. If anyone on those aircraft were not feeling good about flying and were listening they would have been really shaken up. Yes he was supervised, and yes he was good, but that is not a judgment call for the controller and this is a judgement call. That is why the FAA requires you to be licensed to do that. Bad Call, Good dad.

Growing up at JFK, I remember things that people would be shocked at today...but I never keyed up the mic called the tower, or ground. :lol: :wink:

[NLovis]

Good Parent, Bad Call!

Obviously the dad knew that the son could do it because the child was spot on. I was very impressed with the child. If anyone on those aircraft were not feeling good about flying and were listening they would have been really shaken up. Yes he was supervised, and yes he was good, but that is not a judgment call for the controller and this is a judgement call. That is why the FAA requires you to be licensed to do that. Bad Call, Good dad.

Growing up at JFK, I remember things that people would be shocked at today...but I never keyed up the mic called the tower, or ground. :lol: :wink:
Yea I know what you mean. In the old days I was able to get a vistor's pass at 87 (at that time Polar Air/Atlas) and be in the ramp. I also spotted. My roots right there. Also get into USAirways at LGA with my father and nobody complained. I was on the ramp there actually outside a few times. Though the peak was being in the cockpit of a 737 classic. Man good times. Rumor now is the father also let his daughter talk as well.

[Speedbird1]

I can understand why many of us find the entire incident as amusing but as a result there will be repercussions. Those involved are going to be re=trained and will probably be demoted. Visitors will no longer be allowed up to the Tower; including spouses and kids. I doubt if even pilots will now be allowed to come up to talk. In my mind, the worst part is that the public now has the misconception that many controllers are buffoons and this is just plain wrong. I have spent countless hours listening to ATC in the past and how they handle the stress is beyond me. I get nervous just viewing aircraft movements on Passur. All it takes is one or two such incidents to cast a bad shadow on professionals. I was a teacher for 32 years and every time I read an article about how easy teachers have it (6-hour days, looking out the window, numerous free periods, 3 months vacation, early retirement,etc) was frustrating. What about all the degrading jokes being told now about controllers? The media, as usual, blew it out of proportion. Nowadays, every action in our lives is being watched and scrutinized. Sadly, having a sense of humor on the job is not permissible anymore. I recently posted about humorous comments I've heard from the tower controllers; this can no longer be the case. The good old Days!

[Speedbird1]

Now, the pilots may be in trouble. The tapes reveal that the Jet Blue and Aeromexico pilots obviously knew that the instructions to taxy and for take-off were given by kids, they could be investigated, too. It seems that the FAA feels that those instructions could have been made by hackers, or even worse, by terrorists attempting to cause havoc at JFK. This I heard from one of the local TV news reports last night. Evidently it's possible for hackers to give pilots false instructions. The pilots should have asked the kids to give their IDs, age, or to switch them to a different controller. Remember what happened in the film "Die Hard 2" when the glideslope was mis-aligned for arrivals ?

[Futterman]

I'd like you all to take a look at this piece by Don Brown, a retired Atlanta center controller who maintains a blog called "Get The Flick". He's a well-rounded guy with an impressive range of discussions to sort through. His latest post summarizes the pro-ATC dad sentiments nicely. And very effectively, I think.

:arrow: Get The Flick - "When Daddy Let Me Drive" (http://gettheflick.blogspot.com/2010/03/when-daddy-let-me-drive.html)



So if the public goes at this with pitchforks and torches in the name of safety, I can only imagine what they'll do when they find out that their quiet neighborhood GA airports are actually alive with fledgling student pilots, many of whom may even be younger than the controller's son.
I doubt that, Brian - while I haven't read anything yet listing the child's age, from most stories, and listening to the audio, he sounds very young. The minimum age to solo is 16, and 17 for a PPL. Yes, someone younger than that could take flight lessons, but they would have an instructor next to them.

True, Moose, an exaggeration on my part. But age alone sometimes doesn't prevent pilots who are a Charlie-Foxtrot on the radios from earning their wings. Point being that threats similar to, and in excess of, what the kid and his dad brought to the table are alive and well.

Brian

[NLovis]

Now, the pilots may be in trouble. The tapes reveal that the Jet Blue and Aeromexico pilots obviously knew that the instructions to taxy and for take-off were given by kids, they could be investigated, too. It seems that the FAA feels that those instructions could have been made by hackers, or even worse, by terrorists attempting to cause havoc at JFK. This I heard from one of the local TV news reports last night. Evidently it's possible for hackers to give pilots false instructions. The pilots should have asked the kids to give their IDs, age, or to switch them to a different controller. Remember what happened in the film "Die Hard 2" when the glideslope was mis-aligned for arrivals ?
That sounds very unlikely. Common sense would say if there was a problem or not. The pilots might have figured out it was a father letting the kid talk. Hell when I have a kid i'm going to try and do what my father did with me. Take me to work. Althouhg I asked to go :mrgreen:

[Gerard]

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/201 ... _mess.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/03/06/2010-03-06_pilots_high_on_controller_in_jfk_mess.html)

[NIKV69]

Not surprising, It's sad how the media has spun this in fact Ed Schultz's take on it made me sick. Though this man erred badly I don't think at any point was anyone in danger. I think the FAA should render a punishment along the lines of an unpaid suspension and an official reprimand and be done with it. No need to keep the media circus going.

[DHG750R]

Not surprising, It's sad how the media has spun this in fact Ed Schultz's take on it made me sick. Though this man erred badly I don't think at any point was anyone in danger. I think the FAA should render a punishment along the lines of an unpaid suspension and an official reprimand and be done with it. No need to keep the media circus going.


Agreed,
He displayed poor judgement and put the career of him and his supv on the line, not endangered lives as many suggested (The media).

His name being put out there is awful, especially for his kids..
Darrell

[Mayi757]

This country is in bad shape because common sense is something foreign to most people. They need to find a way to make it into a school subject.

On the FOX news morning show this guy from one of the online travel websites (forget the name) said this was clearly dangerous because ...a long time ago a Russian pilot let their kids inside an Airbus A319 and the plane crashed...

FAIL

If this is the best the news channels can do, that tells me 90% of what they report is probably biased/exaggerated/plain wrong.

I'm convinced this kid did a much better job than the crazy controller JFK used to have :lol:

[Mayi757]

I think the kid did a great job and the ATCs involved obviously were in total control. Unfortunately they will be hung out to dry by the FAA. People are just too tight assed on every little thing now. This may be one time LiveATC did the people they follow a dis-service because that is where everyone is getting the feed from.

How could the kid do a bad job? It's not all that hard to regurgitate what you are told to say? And with that thought in mind, I feel bad for the image of ATC that it unfortunately conveys....that even a kid, or a chimp, can do it... just tell them what to say or do. No IQ requirement necessary. That is the WRONG message it conveys.

Many are saying its blown out of proportion....yet consider if it was an emergency, how does that change the impact of that single act?




I let my kids visit me at work while I'm working on a truck- that does not mean an 8 year old is repairing and engine for a customer on his own. Just crazy.


But Mike, as the proud owner of your business, would you let them work on a customer's truck at all? Your truck is one thing but a clients? And consider how your clientele might see this. Its one thing to have my son come in and see an ocular anomaly one of my patients (w/ the patient's permission may experience, its a whole other ballgame to say, "Here, do this."

And yes, I have ridden diesel cabs before, honked the horn and taken up through throttle 8, but what 2 things make this significant. That its recorded for the public to see and that it was at a major airport.

ok lets see

How could the kid do a bad job? It's not all that hard to regurgitate what you are told to say?

Exactly, the kid wasn't landing an MD-11 on a crosswind, hence the safety/professionalism/public perception worries you're trying to push aren't very convincing. He did a good job because he spoke clearly and calmly for being so young. Would have fooled me if it weren't for his little kid voice. Check that, he did a great job! That kid's a natural.

How are you going to compare uttering the words "cleared for take off" with letting your kids diagnose an ocular anomaly? Key words "ocular anomaly"

If you really have doubts this controller didn't wait for the right moment to let his kid talk then you must also believe planes are constantly about to crash at JFK. We get the idea you're a very responsible citizen, but this ATC guy is no less of a professional than you are, and judging by how good the kid sounded it tells me his dad is a pretty good controller. If there were an emergency the father would have taken over, big deal...

Also, simple logic would say he was likely focused 120% on the job since the kid was on the mic. I'd be a heck of a lot more worried about flying into JFK (if i were a pilot) and getting that rude, arrogant a******* that was there before. Funny how nobody in the media made a big deal about THAT.


Apparently the crazie got moved to ISP now?? What's worrisome here is how someone with the stupidity to argue and confuse pilots held the job for so long (see that right there could have caused a crash). Good thing he's a controller and not a police officer or someone in government (God help us!)

xxxxxxxxxxx


I feel bad for the image of ATC that it unfortunately conveys....that even a kid, or a chimp, can do it... just tell them what to say or do. No IQ requirement necessary. That is the WRONG message it conveys.

In other words, you are convinced no one surrounding you is capable of intelligent reasoning either. What wrong message? I don't see how anyone with an ounce of gray matter would believe it's so easy "chimps can do it" (being widely-known ATC is one of the most stressful professions) If anyone thinks it's a piece of cake, let them.

What's our "idiot" public going to do, stop flying because they think ATC is picking their nose? Good! cheaper fares.

\

[Gerard]

[quote="moose135
This showed appalling judgment on the part of the controller, as well as his supervisor, in allowing this to happen not once, but twice on separate occasions. If they think this sort of behavior is acceptable, what else are they allowing to pass?[/quote]

After last summer when the controller and supervisor at TEB were fired after dereliction of duty following
the helo/plane mid-air do you have to wonder why the public has a negative image of ATC?

[Futterman]

Lately, I've been reading up on organizational culture and system safety. Here are some thoughts you all might be interested in reading:

:arrow: We Need a Just Culture at JFK (http://chaosinthecockpit.wordpress.com/)

Brian

[hiss srq]

There is apparently a little bit of a grassroots movement going on in and out of JFK and the NY area by pilots in which they are using the phrase "Adios" to show solidarity and support for the controller suspended from JFK tower. It is used during handoff to departure and in general during frequency handoff's at JFK. Apparently it is picking up some steam.

[Mayi757]

thought it was downright awesome when the kid said Adios and the woman pilot on the mexican jet replied back with the same, hah