Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

[darlyn]

The guy claims any photography of airplanes is not allowed. WTF?? I think I'll call them again and explain why it is perfectly legal to shoot pictures from the numerous public areas surrounding the airfield (like the IKEA store).

[PhilDernerJr]

As explained to you in other threads, that is the stance of the PAPD. It would also prove fruitless to argue with them.

More importantly, your arguing could make them take an even more aggressive and angry posture towards nethusiasts, making the already difficult photographic challenges at EWR even tougher for ALL of us here.

As we've all recommended, we suggest you stick to Ikea like on the map, and if police come and ask you to leave, you should leave.

Arguing with the police, or calling them to persuade them, will do nothing. If you argue with them while you are spotting, you might even end up in handcuffs, so don't be surprised if that happens.

I'm not in the mood to receive a phone call from PAPD because you wanted to educate them on the our rights.

[darlyn]

IKEA it is, then :(

[T-Bird76]

Phil there's no real reason to talk sense into this guy, he's proven to have his own agenda and perhaps a ride in the backseat of a PAPD car and a few questions will help him understand. I mean how many people told him where he went was trespassing? Some people really have to learn the hard way.

[T-Bird76]

IKEA it is, then :(

btw that is private property as well so I'd suggest you don't mouth off to the security guard who may ask you to leave their property, or you may very well end up in the backseat of a cruiser.

[diegodangers]

why dont you call the EWR operations manager, tell them what time you plan on spotting and ask them if it will be okay to take pics and take their number down, if any officer gives you a problem, tell them the name and number of the ops manager (without being a douche)

[darlyn]

That's an excellent idea. I assumed the PA was in charge of the airport. They do own it, after all.

[PhilDernerJr]

Port Authority Operations and Port Authority Police are not run by the same people.

Even if you do that, and you get a name of an Ops guy that says yes, don't become argumentative with the police if they tell you they don't care.

Keep in mind that there are hundreds of enthusiasts around here who would be very displeased with you if you started trouble and ruined it for them by taking a tough stance against police.

[PhilDernerJr]

Also keep in mind that you may have to deal with Elizabeth Police, not even Port folks...and they especially won't care what Ops name you throw at them.

At all three local airports, photography is not allowed on airport proeprty, and PAPD enforces this. This is not a rights issue, as it's their airport and they can make that rule if they want.

Off airport property, it is a different jurisdiction. Though aviation photography is technically legal, if you are on ANY private property, you can be told to leave by that property's owner (Ikea), or must leave if police tell you to. Mention permission from someone in Ops or trying to convince them that you're press will not change that.

Again, I'd like to repeat that you are not to use your membership at NYCAviation to convince the police that your shooting is ok as well.

[JerseyFlyer4]

Okay lets not go crazy here...
What WOULD be a good idea, is if we either wrote a letter, or some sort of formal message to the proper Newark Airport Authorities stating that
we are a group of innocent (well most of us are) civilians that enjoy the hobby of plane spotting, and then we give them a little background on
what exactly plane spotting is, and then from there we would ask for written permission for one certain day at a certain designated time for the approval
by them to let us stand/sit in a certain section of the airport and let us do what we all do best, and we you know should be very sincere and all that jazz,
and give them a list of the names and information of everybody before hand, and maybe just maybe probably on a weekend or even a day thats less hectic @
newark they may approve of it, but like I explained we would have to be sincere, show them the NYC aviation website maybe, send them a group photo of everybody.. you know?

[T-Bird76]

Okay lets not go crazy here...
What WOULD be a good idea, is if we either wrote a letter, or some sort of formal message to the proper Newark Airport Authorities stating that
we are a group of innocent (well most of us are) civilians that enjoy the hobby of plane spotting, and then we give them a little background on
what exactly plane spotting is, and then from there we would ask for written permission for one certain day at a certain designated time for the approval
by them to let us stand/sit in a certain section of the airport and let us do what we all do best, and we you know should be very sincere and all that jazz,
and give them a list of the names and information of everybody before hand, and maybe just maybe probably on a weekend or even a day thats less hectic @
newark they may approve of it, but like I explained we would have to be sincere, show them the NYC aviation website maybe, send them a group photo of everybody.. you know?

As Phil stated above you are not only dealing with Port but in many cases like JFK for example you have NYPD, NCPD, and PAPD, the same goes for LGA. While your idea may work in other places its not very logistically sound with the NY area airports. You simply have to many layers that would need to be informed.

[cancidas]

Okay lets not go crazy here...
What WOULD be a good idea, is if we either wrote a letter, or some sort of formal message to the proper Newark Airport Authorities stating that
we are a group of innocent (well most of us are) civilians that enjoy the hobby of plane spotting, and then we give them a little background on
what exactly plane spotting is, and then from there we would ask for written permission for one certain day at a certain designated time for the approval
by them to let us stand/sit in a certain section of the airport and let us do what we all do best, and we you know should be very sincere and all that jazz,
and give them a list of the names and information of everybody before hand, and maybe just maybe probably on a weekend or even a day thats less hectic @
newark they may approve of it, but like I explained we would have to be sincere, show them the NYC aviation website maybe, send them a group photo of everybody.. you know?
OR, you could do what the rest of us do... which is keep a low profile, not cause a scene and expose yourself or the group unnecessarily, take your pictures and go home at the end of the day satisfied. if you have your own contacts then do as you please. don't expect others to support your ideas when you show a complete disregard for the rules we've all agreed upon a long time ago.

[JerseyFlyer4]

Okay lets not go crazy here...
What WOULD be a good idea, is if we either wrote a letter, or some sort of formal message to the proper Newark Airport Authorities stating that
we are a group of innocent (well most of us are) civilians that enjoy the hobby of plane spotting, and then we give them a little background on
what exactly plane spotting is, and then from there we would ask for written permission for one certain day at a certain designated time for the approval
by them to let us stand/sit in a certain section of the airport and let us do what we all do best, and we you know should be very sincere and all that jazz,
and give them a list of the names and information of everybody before hand, and maybe just maybe probably on a weekend or even a day thats less hectic @
newark they may approve of it, but like I explained we would have to be sincere, show them the NYC aviation website maybe, send them a group photo of everybody.. you know?

As Phil stated above you are not only dealing with Port but in many cases like JFK for example you have NYPD, NCPD, and PAPD, the same goes for LGA. While your idea may work in other places its not very logistically sound with the NY area airports. You simply have to many layers that would need to be informed.

wow thats a bummer for us then, I really can't think of anything else. What I will do is when I get my car in 3 months, Im definitely driving to harrison and just parking in some ghetto neighborhood and just plane spott with my eyes. :shock:

[PhilDernerJr]

If you get a car, drive to LGA or JFK where there are easier places to spot at without risk.

[Delta777LR]

Okay lets not go crazy here...
What WOULD be a good idea, is if we either wrote a letter, or some sort of formal message to the proper Newark Airport Authorities stating that
we are a group of innocent (well most of us are) civilians that enjoy the hobby of plane spotting, and then we give them a little background on
what exactly plane spotting is, and then from there we would ask for written permission for one certain day at a certain designated time for the approval
by them to let us stand/sit in a certain section of the airport and let us do what we all do best, and we you know should be very sincere and all that jazz,
and give them a list of the names and information of everybody before hand, and maybe just maybe probably on a weekend or even a day thats less hectic @
newark they may approve of it, but like I explained we would have to be sincere, show them the NYC aviation website maybe, send them a group photo of everybody.. you know?

As Phil stated above you are not only dealing with Port but in many cases like JFK for example you have NYPD, NCPD, and PAPD, the same goes for LGA. While your idea may work in other places its not very logistically sound with the NY area airports. You simply have to many layers that would need to be informed.

wow thats a bummer for us then, I really can't think of anything else. What I will do is when I get my car in 3 months, Im definitely driving to harrison and just parking in some ghetto neighborhood and just plane spott with my eyes. :shock:

Not to mention I do have a nice small spot on right off Raymond Blvd/Freeman St where you can spot there. However its under Newark PD juristiction, but other than that, u dont get bothered there much. Just remember to have ID at all times, if asked to leave, you must leave, but dont leave annoyed with the cops though, it doesnt nothing at all.

[mmedford]

*feeling pretty good to have privs* at this time...

[Delta777LR]

The guy claims any photography of airplanes is not allowed. WTF?? I think I'll call them again and explain why it is perfectly legal to shoot pictures from the numerous public areas surrounding the airfield (like the IKEA store).

Ive been trough the same situations you have along time ago. Thats why I barely spot there. I got ejected from the food court in IKea back in 2004 as I was seeing taking pictures from there. Its just not worth to argue with the police or propery owners or so on, it just make things worse and yes these little things like that could affect us too. Just remember what Phil and all of us is telling you. Dont cause seens, or argue about taking pictures. Believe me we all wish we had the freedom of spotting where ever but it just doesnt work like that at all. Not one bit.

[jerslice]

What WOULD be a good idea, is if we either wrote a letter, or some sort of formal message to the proper Newark Airport Authorities stating that
we are a group of innocent (well most of us are) civilians that enjoy the hobby of plane spotting, and then we give them a little background on
what exactly plane spotting is, and then from there we would ask for written permission for one certain day at a certain designated time for the approval
by them to let us stand/sit in a certain section of the airport and let us do what we all do best, and we you know should be very sincere and all that jazz,
and give them a list of the names and information of everybody before hand, and maybe just maybe probably on a weekend or even a day thats less hectic @
newark they may approve of it, but like I explained we would have to be sincere, show them the NYC aviation website maybe, send them a group photo of everybody.. you know?

JerseyFlyer isn't entirely crazy on this. I have done this successfully with 3 different airports, one of them a major one - and know that this is done at 2 major airports in the US (though I haven't done it myself at either). It seems however, that this won't exactly get you anywhere with EWR and that is something worth obviously considering. In my cases, I give names, phone numbers, license info, where I'll be, for how long, the whole 9 yards. However, I have never attached myself to a website or group - I always go as an individual or as a small group of people. And every time I have been able to locate the individual(s) who can make it happen. Sometimes it is airport ops/media relations, sometimes it is a port authority, sometimes it is the local pd - sometimes a coordination between all three. When I go, I take a confirmation email from the person/agency with contact information from the person who granted permission and/or someone who will be working at that time who can confirm it. Area's around airports are hard to judge who owns what, and hence the problems with multiple jurisdictions and agencies. Before anyone tries something like this ANYWHERE, you have to know where you want to go and WHO OWNS IT. When it's private commercial property, identify the owner and contact her/him. If its private property like an airport - call every possible agency involved and ask who you need to talk to, to get permission. If they aren't responsive - drop it, don't go there, and get over it.

That being said, I have a hard time believing people on these boards haven't tried something like this with EWR. If the recommendation (as it has been so far) is to stay the f away, then take their advice and follow it.
I've written spotting guides for almost a dozen airports and I can't tell you how important it is to follow the recommendations of the guides. Certain spots that might not be on guides that seem so obvious to you are equally as obvious to us veteran locals too. If it isn't on the guide - there's a reason for it. By going somewhere that isn't recognized as an acceptable location by the local veterans you could ruin years of hard work and good reputations.
I have both seen myself and heard from others the serious repercussions that the mistake of one can have on the whole spotting community. Security can start coming down hard in previously accessible locations and those spots can even close - permanently. Nevermind the fact perhaps a location was left off because security there has a history of questioning, arrest, and confiscation: maybe it wasn't listed to protect you getting kicked out or worse.

[NIKV69]

the rules we've all agreed upon a long time ago

Who is "we"? We are falling into the trap of thinking this site is the end all of the area's spotting. It isn't. Let us not forget that Gordon and others behavior changed the way we can shoot at the cargo area at JFK. Areas that were once accessible are not and that spot has been changed forever. Talking here will never change people's behavior in how they approach what they do. If someone feels the entitlement to shoot they will regardless. The Costco episode was another example where certain members here felt it was their right to shoot there simply because the fisherman were allowed to remain after spotters were kicked out and went as far to enter the store and engage the manager. I don't know what possesses Darlyn to do these things but nothing will change. I am just surprised he keeps posting about his suicidal missions. Got to admit it has given the forum some life over the last couple of months though.

[PhilDernerJr]

I agree that this site isn't the be-all and end-all.

I do find it disheartening when some people try to undo the efforts of others over the years by defying advice. Not that it's happening here, but through your examples, we've seen debates stem from various behavior, some warranted and some not.

I like that we can see all of us be so passionate and driven about our hobby though.

[moose135]

Not to disclose too many details, but suffice to say PA was approached in an organized manner about spotting with little interest on their part. Nick, I don't think anything that any one individual did caused the situation at the cargo area - it was a private, employee lot, and it was always hit or miss with PAPD reaction, usually triggered by the security staff of the airline involved. I highly doubt they closed the parking lot to keep spotters from using it.

No, NYCA isn't the "end all of the area's spotting" but it serves as a clearinghouse of information, and a way to educate spotters on the best ways to safely and legally practice our hobby.

[Iberia A340-600]

Nick, I feel it is completely unnecessary for you to single me out in your post.

[NIKV69]

Not to disclose too many details, but suffice to say PA was approached in an organized manner about spotting with little interest on their part. Nick

Well someone I shoot with was taken on the ramp to shoot and he was told it was due to spotter actions that that area was scrutinized. You all enjoyed ganging up on Darlyn for his foolish actions in an employee lot yet it was quite similiar to our situation where some used discretion at the AI employee lot and some didn't.


Nick, I feel it is completely unnecessary for you to single me out in your post.

What was unnecessary was standing under the landing lights Gordon for it is a direct and accurate comparison to Darlyn's foolish behavior.

[T-Bird76]

Nick, I feel it is completely unnecessary for you to single me out in your post.

Nick does have a point about the photos that were taken at the cargo plaza by you and Matt, they were seen and questioned by certain officials. The point is there's pushing the limits of where people belong and don't belong without permission.

[Vidiot]

I certainly am not advocating antagonizing private property owners/managers or the police, and I don't think spotters should cause a scene or give anyone a reason to crack down on our hobby.

However, our hobby is completely legal, and when you're on public property, you're allowed to take pictures of anything you can see, provided that it doesn't infringe on others' reasonable expectations of privacy.

I don't see anything wrong with politely standing up for your Constitutional rights in dealing with police officers who are misinformed. I'm not saying start an argument, I'm not saying to get yourself arrested...but if you're not on airport property or private property, you're not breaking any laws by taking pictures of airplanes. Police have every right to ask you your name and what you're doing, but they can't legally order you to leave, to stop taking pictures, or to delete your pictures.

Actually, they can't even force you to produce ID in New York State unless they are detaining you, which requires the police officer to be able to articulate "reasonable suspicion" that you're breaking the law. (and refusal to answer officers' questions or to produce ID cannot in itself be used as reasons for "reasonable suspicion", according to the courts.) I don't know if there's a stop-and-identify law in New Jersey, but New York's is only triggered upon police detention, like a Terry stop.

Again, and I want to be clear here -- I'm not saying anyone should pick a fight or otherwise upset relations with the various police departments, but I see nothing wrong with standing up for your rights when challenged.

[Iberia A340-600]

[quote="Iberia A340-600":1bpaygj7]Nick, I feel it is completely unnecessary for you to single me out in your post.

Nick does have a point about the photos that were taken at the cargo plaza by you and Matt, they were seen and questioned by certain officials. The point is there's pushing the limits of where people belong and don't belong without permission.[/quote:1bpaygj7]

Look, I chose to stand away from the landing lights. One of the few times I've actually stood there I happened to get photographed and that photograph was published.

The fact is that hundreds, if not thousands of people, have been by those lights, a few to photograph, and many for just recreation. If the PA was truly concerned they would have fenced that area long ago, just as they have a cell phone lot to the north east of that area and other areas around the airport. Yes, they have put up concrete barriers blocking the ex-AI parking lot but they are clearly unconcerned about the lights as they have taken no action there.

I'm withdrawing from this conversation for now by repeating what I said at the beginning. I avoid getting anywhere near the lights and just because I happened to be photographed does not mean that I am oblivious to the limits.

[PhilDernerJr]

Side-topic posts dealing in detail in regards to Gordon will stay, but any posts after this will be considered thread hijacking, as that's not what we are here to discuss. I don't want any argument or debate as to that. If anyone has more to say, take it to PM please. The points pertaining to it were made, and we should move on, or back to the orig topic.

[PhilDernerJr]

I certainly am not advocating antagonizing private property owners/managers or the police, and I don't think spotters should cause a scene or give anyone a reason to crack down on our hobby.

However, our hobby is completely legal, and when you're on public property, you're allowed to take pictures of anything you can see, provided that it doesn't infringe on others' reasonable expectations of privacy.

I don't see anything wrong with politely standing up for your Constitutional rights in dealing with police officers who are misinformed. I'm not saying start an argument, I'm not saying to get yourself arrested...but if you're not on airport property or private property, you're not breaking any laws by taking pictures of airplanes. Police have every right to ask you your name and what you're doing, but they can't legally order you to leave, to stop taking pictures, or to delete your pictures.

Actually, they can't even force you to produce ID in New York State unless they are detaining you, which requires the police officer to be able to articulate "reasonable suspicion" that you're breaking the law. (and refusal to answer officers' questions or to produce ID cannot in itself be used as reasons for "reasonable suspicion", according to the courts.) I don't know if there's a stop-and-identify law in New Jersey, but New York's is only triggered upon police detention, like a Terry stop.

Again, and I want to be clear here -- I'm not saying anyone should pick a fight or otherwise upset relations with the various police departments, but I see nothing wrong with standing up for your rights when challenged.

The only difficulty is there there is little that is considered "public property" thee days. the only spotting locations that are public are parks, and even those have the ability to have rules made for them by the government that runs/owns them, which means that we should tread lightly.

The other issue is that when it comes to arguing with police, you will ALWAYS lose. ALWAYS. Should you stand up for your rights? DEFINITELY. However, the officer that is questioning you at Ikea, or Costco, or the Terminal, is not where you stand up for your rights. You file a report after the incident with the police (chief or whomever), a politician, or whomever has the power to change and is in the job of listening to you. The cop is not that person.

[flyboy 28]

http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/tspop.gif

[darlyn]

Sergio, that sounds interesting. I'll have to check that out for myself.

[cancidas]

Who is "we"? We are falling into the trap of thinking this site is the end all of the area's spotting.
by "we" i mean we veterans who have been doing this for some time now. we've pretty much come to a consensus over the years of how to act and how not to act and how to get what we wanted out of the day. we've all made mistakes and learned from them. remember rockaway blvd nick? i'm digging all the way back to pre-NYCA days which was how i got my start. i didn't mean to ensue that this site, or any other site or online reference is the bible all spotters should abide by.

jerslice covered the points that i didn't, in a bit more detail too:

...If the recommendation (as it has been so far) is to stay the f away, then take their advice and follow it.
...Certain spots that might not be on guides that seem so obvious to you are equally as obvious to us veteran locals too. If it isn't on the guide - there's a reason for it. By going somewhere that isn't recognized as an acceptable location by the local veterans you could ruin years of hard work and good reputations.
I have both seen myself and heard from others the serious repercussions that the mistake of one can have on the whole spotting community. Security can start coming down hard in previously accessible locations and those spots can even close - permanently. Nevermind the fact perhaps a location was left off because security there has a history of questioning, arrest, and confiscation: maybe it wasn't listed to protect you getting kicked out or worse.

[NIKV69]

Rockaway Blvd is a little different that the situations we are discussing Matt. Back thenot was hot because it was still a short time after 9/11. I have shot there numerous times with little or no problem from PA and have been told that area is fine to shoot. It is not airport property and as long as you don't bring out a huge group your fine. Airport property is a different matter and I was merely showing how not using some common sense can ruin it for other spotters which is what basically has happened in certain areas.

[george]

I haven't been a member here long but I have gotten a lot of good advice from here. I originally found this site after just googling "places to take pictures of planes" I will admit I don't know every plane i see fly in but I love watching them land and take off and taking pictures of them. This weekend I finally went spotting at LGA. Thanks to the spotting guides here I went to Plane View park this past Monday (I dragged a friend of mine out with me) I got a few good pictures and was acting like a little kid every time a plane few in. The pictures didnt come out all that great but there are one or two that I am really happy with :D

Without this site and the hard work of everyone here I would never have known where to go. I just want to thank everyone for that. Hopefully sooner or later I will get the courage to head over to some spotting near JFK (I also want to get better lenses for my Canon XSI) But at least when I do go to spot I will know where to go based on the guides from here.

I have also gotten good advice from here on dealing with the authorities that patrol the areas that are used for spotting. But basically if a police officer whether it be NCPD, NYPD OR PAPD tell me to move I am gonna move, plain and simple. It doesn't make any sense to me to argue with them cause your not going to win. Same thing if I am on private property and the manager of the place I am at tells me to leave..

Just my 2 cents

George

[Delta777LR]

I haven't been a member here long but I have gotten a lot of good advice from here. I originally found this site after just googling "places to take pictures of planes" I will admit I don't know every plane i see fly in but I love watching them land and take off and taking pictures of them. This weekend I finally went spotting at LGA. Thanks to the spotting guides here I went to Plane View park this past Monday (I dragged a friend of mine out with me) I got a few good pictures and was acting like a little kid every time a plane few in. The pictures didnt come out all that great but there are one or two that I am really happy with :D

Without this site and the hard work of everyone here I would never have known where to go. I just want to thank everyone for that. Hopefully sooner or later I will get the courage to head over to some spotting near JFK (I also want to get better lenses for my Canon XSI) But at least when I do go to spot I will know where to go based on the guides from here.

I have also gotten good advice from here on dealing with the authorities that patrol the areas that are used for spotting. But basically if a police officer whether it be NCPD, NYPD OR PAPD tell me to move I am gonna move, plain and simple. It doesn't make any sense to me to argue with them cause your not going to win. Same thing if I am on private property and the manager of the place I am at tells me to leave..

Just my 2 cents

George


I agree with you.. Most times the cops are pretty familiar who we are espeacialy places like Firestone, me and a few others have been questioned by NCPD there but they rarely give us a hard time while spotting there. And over there, its actually not public. But there are time where there are going to be aggresive cops around to want to false you to leave or so on. I was once stopped at Planeview Park for questioning a few months ago, and normaly they wouldnt tell you to leave the park or to stop taking pictures there, however I was told by the PAPD officer that I was not allowed to take pictures there, its very rare, but I had to deal with it. Most times at Planeview the cops mostly drive by see us and dont really bother with us. But the bottom line is, and ill say it again, dont waste your time arguing with the officers, 1. That could get you thrown to jail, 2, Like most of us said, youre not gonna win. Just obey and everything will be alot easier.

[mirrodie]

http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/tspop.gif

Too late to this thread.

A lot of valid pts have been made about individual behavior. Blaming the PAPD is not the answer and taking ownership of one's actions, acknowledging one's behavior and growing as a person is an answer.

[AAGold]

Ah, Phil, the memories this brings back. Remember the ride we shared in the paddy wagon to the NYPD station house? Remember the follow-up phone calls after being stopped by the police? Remember the FBI and Secret Service knocking at your door to ask questions about your spotting adventures? Remember the group sitting in the car watching Josh and I get questioned at HO Beach by NYPD? You guys even took a picture of that ...

http://www.photovation.net/Uploads/NYCAviation/NYPD_Close_Encounter_1.jpg

You have no idea how surprised I was to have the officer stand back while I took a photo. That was amazing. Thankfully I haven't been stopped in a while so I thought things were getting better. After looking at this thread I'm wondering ... am I wrong:) I hope not.

The last few times I have been out have been without incident and I am thankful for that. I think some have stated good advice for those who wish to live within the existing system. Now, let's hope they take the advice and don't make things worse for all of us.

Art

[PhilDernerJr]

haha, good times, Art. I'm glad we as a group have progressed beyond the constant negative attention from law enforcement and tend to enjoy our hobby much more comfortably.

[NIKV69]

That is by far my favorite Art Brett picture!

[mirrodie]

I think some have stated good advice for those who wish to live within the existing system.


Now, let's hope they take the advice and don't make things worse for all of us.





I firmly believe this needs to be read and re-read. :borat:

[emshighway]

*feeling pretty good to have privs* at this time...

Better to have creds :borat:

[T-Bird76]

*feeling pretty good to have privs* at this time...

Just keep within the speed limit on the ramp please ;)

[Tom_Turner]

Just in all fairness to darlyn, it is entirely possible to call up Port or PAPD and be granted permission to shoot at all "public" areas at EWR... and many have shot there when doing so, or without calling even, for hours at at time with no issues.

The only problem there is the odds really mitigate against "planning" a day there, because it can and probably will, come to an abrupt end very early on... courtesy of PAPD, Newark City Police, Elizabeth City Police, NJ State Troopers, TSA, US Customs Police, Correction Officers, IKEA Security, etc etc..and even immediately after being granted permission by another officer or any of the above named agencies. And, it won't always be pleasant - threats to impound automobile, arrest, confiscation of camera etc... [Not to suggest every individual authority will do that, again, there are plenty of sympathetic folks on all the forces above and the Port Authority as well, but these are real examples on the negative end of the spectrum]

Also, to darlyn's point, its not a radical idea to think one CAN shoot *AT* EWR. Last I knew Port doesn't have a policy against photography - and they're wise in that. They enforce at will, on the fly, at the discretion of whoever is in the field. This puts them in, to date at least, a much more sophisticated and flexible position than zealots and MTA and NJ Transit that found themselves on the losing end of legal challenges. To that end, I really have never understood the servile mentality that obtains in our area with regard to "private" property. I certainly respect law enforcement and I respect "private" property - I don't feel I have a "right" to shoot wherever I want, whenever I want, but neither do I feel its prudent or rational to have photography "banned" ipso facto by fiat or capricious whim at quasi public/private areas.

Lets keep in mind that while on the one hand, Port Authority, (or MassPort or whoever) make the rules (no small matter there, and it is totally reasonable.. they need to run their agencies and administer to the facilities), they were created in large part to do what was necessary to run those facilities, freeing up politicians from doing the "wrong" thing, taking the $$$ off budget of the respective city/state etc. We are not talking about "trespassing" in the same sense as sunbathing at some corporate park or setting up a picnic on someone's lawn.

As for all the received wisdom on spotting locations, and who did what and when, it is all very problematic. Nearly everyone in this hobby at one time or another pushed the envelope. The only spots we're likely to "lose" due to some newbies insistence at being at, are spots that most here would say we shouldn't be at anyway. Case in point.. EWR itself.

Sure it would be nice to think a "spot" is not lost in someone's effort to fleet jetBlue on a rainy day, but as Nick indicated, it can't be stopped.

No "new" spots are being "discovered" apart from adjacent spots, and every year we seem to lose at least one that was at one time "okay" to shoot at. I really have wondered if this hobby, in our area, really "scales up" effectively or not. Can't next month we just come to find out that "Firestone" is private property (which it is) and time for everyone to move on?

Tom

[CX777]

No "new" spots are being "discovered" apart from adjacent spots, and every year we seem to lose at least one that was at one time "okay" to shoot at. I really have wondered if this hobby, in our area, really "scales up" effectively or not. Can't next month we just come to find out that "Firestone" is private property (which it is) and time for everyone to move on? Tom

There are few handful of us that have been doing this since 80's. Visiting JFK regularly and following the hobby and spending a day at "Kennedy".
In 80's one could just go to roof terrace on famous PanAm and get these shots.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/RChangela/N820PADLA310-300side-JFK.jpg

In 90's, it was possible to park car at the fence along the Rockway Blvd and spend a day. And we even had "mounds" off the Blvd.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/RChangela/KJFKJMA300OConfinalsonRockawayBlvd.jpg

If this continues, we'll be taking pics from Calverton VOR for Kennedy approach!

I have travelled to airports over the world for spotting only and I can tell you one universal rule that I have come across. An action of one spotter can and will shut down a spot for good.

Law enforcement will (and should) always have upper hand on any given situation. We can debate the 'rights' however I do not believe a new spotter have neither will power, resiliency, or resources to put up any lengthy legal battle with the law enforcement. And besides to the non-spotting world, this may not be a very legitimate hobby.

There are few spotting groups in Europe and Asia that have made strides and after working with the authorities have been able to provide spotting days (on ramp too!) and make things better for the hobby. However this happens only if everyone is on same page and for the cause. Sorry to point the cliche, there is no "i" in spotting! While it maybe tempting to get that unique shot, no one remembers the top of the day shot on any aviation site from last year. Majority of folks that do this is just to have fun and be around jetliners. And while few have tried, there are very few who ends up making $$ off the hobby to quit their daily jobs.

I feel for the new spotters for their love of hobby and being around jetliners. And I can bet any spotter who has been following hobby over 25+ years will agree to that. But spotting in today's environment is very complex, and one must do with understanding and with responsibility.

Raj

[Mayi757]

let me guess the DL A310s pic was taken around uhh 1993?

Miss those Air Jamaica buses.

I think I've seen your pictures from JFK before if your name is Rajesh Changela, lol. I'm not a stalker or anything :borat: I've just been looking at pix ever since airliner pictures started to get on the web.

The lack of common sense by some authorities It's pretty sad, and I'm glad I got started a few years before 9-11. With the aviation paranoia (justified or not) these days if one really wants to enjoy getting aircraft shots at large airports without being hassled, one has to go out of the US, far away to places like Europe or Asia. Nowadays, what I do is time the plane I want to get, take my shot and leave. Spotters should use common sense and not be camping out so you are obvious and then kicked out.

Also, if you are sporting a month-old beard, carrying some enormous bazooka lens and standing there in the open aiming it at airplanes, you ain't gonna last too long before the police comes over (trust me)

..or like my friend says, buy a blonde wig

[moose135]

Also, if you are sporting a month-old beard, carrying some enormous bazooka lens and standing there in the open aiming it at airplanes, you ain't gonna last too long before the police comes over (trust me)
Ah, I guess that's my problem...

http://www.longislandwallpapers.com/photos/548792862_dRVqq-M.jpg
We did have NCPD come check us out at Firestone once because of a report of "15 Arab men taking pictures of airplanes". Even the officer was laughing when he told me that one.

[Tom_Turner]

Nice pix Raj!

Believe me, I've been spotting since the 1960s and it is the death of a thousand cuts... much of it happening pre-911.

I guess the point is if a spot is "sensitive" its best not to exploit it senselessly and squander it. And these days, that could be just about any spot.

If its someplace we had no explicit "right" to be, all the more reason not to kill it - and after the fact offer up that well, no one had a right to be there anyway. That's not going to help anyone.

btw, I remember us getting booted off the Pan Am roof on a number of occasions.. but back then, it was a friendly "ok guys, you gotta wrap it up" - :)

Tom

[T-Bird76]

Nice pix Raj!

Believe me, I've been spotting since the 1960s and it is the death of a thousand cuts... much of it happening pre-911.

I guess the point is if a spot is "sensitive" its best not to exploit it senselessly and squander it. And these days, that could be just about any spot.

If its someplace we had no explicit "right" to be, all the more reason not to kill it - and after the fact offer up that well, no one had a right to be there anyway. That's not going to help anyone.

btw, I remember us getting booted off the Pan Am roof on a number of occasions.. but back then, it was a friendly "ok guys, you gotta wrap it up" - :)

Tom

Tom out of curiosity why would you get booted from the rooftop?

[Tom_Turner]

Hey Tommy -

Good Question - I can't say for certain 100% what the reason was, but almost positive it was insurance/liability issues in a general sense. JFK had a number of observation decks just prior (give or take a couple of years) to the advent of the Pan Am Rooftop Parking lot, but of course a parking lot is not by design an "observation deck".

In the big picture there may have been some "security" concerns as people's property (their cars) were there, "hanging out" might lead to other things - getting drunk, littering, urinating whatever, or someone might walk off the roof or otherwise be hit by a car (the more unnecessary people the greater the chance etc..).

On the matter of "aviation security" for lack of a better term, there was an embryonic awareness of how close the aircraft were and what people were up to, ever since the hijackings of the early 1970s, but no one was overly suspicious..people parking their cars were as likely as anyone else to take in the view, and possibly take a snapshot or two. Then, as now, someone with a small child in tow, was deemed especially innocent of any wrongdoing. And again, at the time, just about anyone was allowed to wander the terminals, so it was probably not terribly disconcerting to find people up there.

The security guard rounding up folks was fairly perfunctory - usually it didn't happen at all. I don't recall anyone calling the police; it would probably be seen as an overreaction by all parties. Can't recall anyone pushing back on the security guards, or the security guards being hostile either, but Raj may know the score better on that issue.

AT some point I know the discouragement was fairly passive, but still unmistakable. Hard plastic strips were eventually wound into/through the chain like type fences.

The one thing I can recall that seemed rather aggressive to me was some people - spotters and others as well - would take to climbing up on the roof of the structures that allowed the elevator to go to the rooftop. The notion of doing something like that, taking that sort of liberty, was alien to me, and it certainly could not have made anyone responsible for that rooftop very happy. [I do admit though, that on one occasion the practice had become so common-place, I took my turn as well, not wanting to be the only one silly enough *not* take advantage of it].

That's about the best I can remember of it...apart from the friendly Pan AM 747 pilots that were always happy to give a wave from a stone's throw away.

Tom

[Mayi757]

Also, if you are sporting a month-old beard, carrying some enormous bazooka lens and standing there in the open aiming it at airplanes, you ain't gonna last too long before the police comes over (trust me)
Ah, I guess that's my problem...

http://www.longislandwallpapers.com/photos/548792862_dRVqq-M.jpg

:shock:


We did have NCPD come check us out at Firestone once because of a report of "15 Arab men taking pictures of airplanes". Even the officer was laughing when he told me that one.


:lol: :lol: :D

[Mayi757]

I remember before 9/11 I saw people with lenses 3 times as big 8) and nobody would get bothered, it was fairly obvious they were taking pictures of airplanes, as spotters were a fairly common sight at most large airports. I never went to JFK before 9/11 but in both Orlando and Miami there were always spotters all around the perimeter, even with 10-foot ladders, scanners, and all kind of necessary geeky spotting accessories right up to the fence. I never, ever got bothered.

Last month I was with a planespotting friend who wanted to take a shot at a LAN 767 with those new ugly winglets posing on the ramp. I said it isn't worth it, not there. But my friend insisted so I parked the car and stayed inside. 2 seconds later a Miami sheriff patrol car on a leisurely Sunday morning mission around the airport parked next to us and asked to see ID. A blonde girl by the fence all excited about taking a pix but hey, he askes to see id. Sure here's our ID. He said pictures are not allowed there, and recommended the Squadron restaurant by perimeter road, so ok, perfect.

Then. he just took at least 15 minutes to check our IDs, something that never happened to me before at MIA as long as I can recall, even after 9/11. 15 minutes that all 3 of us could've done something much more productive with our times, including going to church :D . Then just gave our IDs back and drove away.... not even a goodbye or have a nice day. But again, you dont have to remotely care about been classy or look professional if you are in Miami, I guess.

Moral of the story: well there are many. But mainly, when an area doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.

[threeholerglory]

moose135 wrote:
Mayi757 wrote:
Also, if you are sporting a month-old beard, carrying some enormous bazooka lens and standing there in the open aiming it at airplanes, you ain't gonna last too long before the police comes over (trust me)

Ah, I guess that's my problem...

Image


:shock:

moose135 wrote:
We did have NCPD come check us out at Firestone once because of a report of "15 Arab men taking pictures of airplanes". Even the officer was laughing when he told me that one.



:lol: :lol: :D


Report this post


that was my first day out at JFK...I'll never forget being called "middle-eastern"!

[kc2aqg]

When the FBI DOJ paid me a visit last year, they said their report was that we were "hiding in the bushes taking pictures of airplanes" at Firestone. I outright laughed at him!

[wunaladreamin]

When the FBI DOJ paid me a visit last year, they said their report was that we were "hiding in the bushes taking pictures of airplanes" at Firestone. I outright laughed at him!
You should have told them you were a hobbit of the shire and you were just walking out of your house.

[kc2aqg]

LOL DEUCE!