Senator Edward Kennedy dies

[Midnight Mike]

U.S. Senator Edward Kennedy, a towering figure in the Democratic Party who took the helm of one of America's most fabled political families after two older brothers were assassinated, died at age 77, his family said.

"Edward M. Kennedy, the husband, father, grandfather, brother and uncle we loved so deeply, died late Tuesday night at home in Hyannis Port (Massachusetts)," the Kennedy family said in a statement early on Wednesday.

One of the most influential and longest-serving senators in U.S. history -- a liberal standard-bearer who was also known as a consummate congressional dealmaker -- Kennedy had been battling brain cancer, which was diagnosed in May 2008.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090826/us_nm/us_kennedy

[T-Bird76]

The Cape Cod Orca finally was harpooned...what a shame. Hopefully in eternity he'll be locked in a trunk and driven off a bridge over and over again just like what he did to Mary Jo Kopechne.

[Midnight Mike]

The Cape Cod Orca finally was harpooned...what a shame. Hopefully in eternity he'll be locked in a trunk and driven off a bridge over and over again just like what he did to Mary Jo Kopechne.

That is now between Senator Ed Kennedy & his maker

[PhilDernerJr]

I was never a fan, but it is a shame to see any American die in such a way.

I wish John Jr. were still around. He'd be a great leader.

[T-Bird76]

I was never a fan, but it is a shame to see any American die in such a way.

I wish John Jr. were still around. He'd be a great leader.

What's the difference between an American dying this way and let’s say a Canadian or German? I'm not sure I understand your thought process here Phil?

[PhilDernerJr]

[quote="Phil D.":3ibimdch]I was never a fan, but it is a shame to see any American die in such a way.

I wish John Jr. were still around. He'd be a great leader.

What's the difference between an American dying this way and let’s say a Canadian or German? I'm not sure I understand your thought process here Phil?[/quote:3ibimdch]

I meant American politician. Someone actively serving my needs, even if I disagree with them.

[T-Bird76]

[quote="T-Bird76":1hz1lv2x][quote="Phil D.":1hz1lv2x]I was never a fan, but it is a shame to see any American die in such a way.

I wish John Jr. were still around. He'd be a great leader.

What's the difference between an American dying this way and let’s say a Canadian or German? I'm not sure I understand your thought process here Phil?[/quote:1hz1lv2x]

I meant American politician. Someone actively serving my needs, even if I disagree with them.[/quote:1hz1lv2x]

Actively serving you needs? Please Phil....what needs are those? Shall I remind you the man cheated on the Bar (got away with it), killed Mary Jo Kopechne (got away with it), and was a chronic drunk...yeah he was a Great American alright. Rather the opposite, he was disgrace to this nation and a shining example of why we need term limits. I don't hide the fact that I have ZERO sympathy over his death or how he died. I for one will not lower the flag at my house to have staff as he doesn't deserve that respect. The man took the life of someone and should have answered for it. As I said above I truly hope he spends eternity going through what he did to Mary Jo.

[PhilDernerJr]

If you're just looking for a platform to complain about the guy, I'm not biting. I don't need to defend or explain why I feel for the guy.

He's an American politician who died in office and regardless of what he did in life, I respect him at his time of death. You don't have to feel the same.

[T-Bird76]

If you're just looking for a platform to complain about the guy, I'm not biting. I don't need to defend or explain why I feel for the guy.

He's an American politician who died in office and regardless of what he did in life, I respect him at his time of death. You don't have to feel the same.

I never asked you to defend your feelings. Just open your eyes to the fact that simply because you serve in the Senate or any other Gov't office doesn't mean you automatically are given respect. There are Gov't officials that do not deserve the respect that often comes from serving, Ted is one of them.

Your way of thinking indicates that Gov't officials are someone on a higher plain then normal citizens. Let me ask this, will you respect Timothy Mcveigh when he dies? He served this country in the U.S Military. Or are the 168 life's he took worth more then the 1 life that Kennedy took?

I know you're well versed in U.S History and Gov't Phil so you know that it is not the design of our system to put our elected officials in a higher place then its citizens. However our culture and society will immortalize Kennedy based on material reasons..when the fact is he used his service and place in Gov't to get out of a murder charge, in the end he should have never had the chance to serve our nation.

[PhilDernerJr]

Wow.

[Midnight Mike]

[quote="Phil D.":2g6e85ki]If you're just looking for a platform to complain about the guy, I'm not biting. I don't need to defend or explain why I feel for the guy.

He's an American politician who died in office and regardless of what he did in life, I respect him at his time of death. You don't have to feel the same.

I never asked you to defend your feelings. Just open your eyes to the fact that simply because you serve in the Senate or any other Gov't office doesn't mean you automatically are given respect. There are Gov't officials that do not deserve the respect that often comes from serving, Ted is one of them.

Your way of thinking indicates that Gov't officials are someone on a higher plain then normal citizens. Let me ask this, will you respect Timothy Mcveigh when he dies? He served this country in the U.S Military. Or are the 168 life's he took worth more then the 1 life that Kennedy took?

I know you're well versed in U.S History and Gov't Phil so you know that it is not the design of our system to put our elected officials in a higher place then its citizens. However our culture and society will immortalize Kennedy based on material reasons..when the fact is he used his service and place in Gov't to get out of a murder charge, in the end he should have never had the chance to serve our nation.[/quote:2g6e85ki]

Tommy

As much as I am not a fan of Senator Kennedy, I am sticking with the time-honored tradition of not speaking ill of the dead.

Now, if you wanted to start a thread as to why Senator Kennedy is a scumbag next week, I would certainly add my thoughts.

[moose135]

Or are the 168 life's he took worth more then the 1 life that Kennedy took?
I would think that even you could tell the difference between one death in a car accident, and 168 murders committed in a deliberate bombing...

[wunaladreamin]

Or are the 168 life's he took worth more then the 1 life that Kennedy took?
I would think that even you could tell the difference between one death in a car accident, and 168 murders committed in a deliberate bombing...
Yeah, in a car he shouldn't have been driving as he was inebriated. Oh, not to mention he waited HOURS to report anything? Gotta side with Tommy here. Sure he did some good but neither he, or any one of his siblings, were what everyone made them out to be.

Camelot my ass.

[T-Bird76]

Or are the 168 life's he took worth more then the 1 life that Kennedy took?
I would think that even you could tell the difference between one death in a car accident, and 168 murders committed in a deliberate bombing...
Yeah, in a car he shouldn't have been driving as he was inebriated. Oh, not to mention he waited HOURS to report anything? Gotta side with Tommy here. Sure he did some good but neither he, or any one of his siblings, were what everyone made them out to be.

Camelot my ass.

Wait we agree on something Kenny? Must be a full moon ;)

Here's my point guys.... Right now in the media and the country are celebrating a man that if anyone of us had the background of being kicked out of school, booted from the military, failing the Bar, being an chronic drunk, and getting away with murder we'd be vilified in society and more than likely in jail. Can that be disputed?

However in this case we are celebrating someone who along with his family abused their power like nothing else before and covered up someone's death. People like Al Capone and John Gotti did great things to for the cities they controlled but we don't celebrate them..we call them what they are..criminals. Btw the Kennedy family when Joe was head of the family were the largest bootleggers in New England.

Simply because Ted was a Senator and I'm sure did positive things in his career doesn't make him a great man or a great American, lets call it spade to spade, drop the hypocrisy that's out there and label him for who he was. His fame and his families fame was built on the backs Americans that they pushed aside. Our memories as Americans tend to be very selective.

[wunaladreamin]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/TeddyVWad.jpg

[PhilDernerJr]

I certainly have never been a fan of his. Similar to how a soldier's job to follow the orders of the President, I offer a level of respect to US politicians upon their death. I don't disagree with what is said here completely, but I will give the guy some respect at least on the day of his death.

[T-Bird76]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/TeddyVWad.jpg

LOL I saw that today and was going to post that in the Funny photo thread but I got yelled at when the AF plane crashed...so I said eh maybe not. LOL Very cleaver advertising though...

[wunaladreamin]

No kidding, I wonder iffin he ever did invest in one?

[mirrodie]

Let me ask this, will you respect Timothy Mcveigh when he dies?

Dude, for a guy who questions my memory, yours is a bit foggy. He was executed the day after my bday in 2001.

That said, like Phil, I just side with giving the guy, like Michael Jackson, a day where I dont piss on their graves.

[Gerard]

Or are the 168 life's he took worth more then the 1 life that Kennedy took?
I would think that even you could tell the difference between one death in a car accident, and 168 murders committed in a deliberate bombing...

Seems not.
Like Phil said "WOW"!!! :?

[jerslice]

:(


getting away with murder
Manslaughter and murder are two very different things. Was he guilty of manslaughter, or perhaps negligent homicide? Probably if not definitely. A murder charge? I don't think so.


Your way of thinking indicates that Gov't officials are someone on a higher plain then normal citizens. Let me ask this, will you respect Timothy Mcveigh when he dies? He served this country in the U.S Military. Or are the 168 life's he took worth more then the 1 life that Kennedy took?
Besides the now established fact that Mr McVeigh has already been spending some number of years passed on, I am pretty surprised at the gross misinterpretation here. A deliberate, well planned bombing meant to maximize casualties and make as loud a cultural/political statement as possible is very different from a chronic drunk wrecking his car at night into a river and then covering it up because he knew he was in deep ****. Neither is right and both are reprehensible, but I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one life (or 168 collective lives) are worth more than another. The end of a life through violence, stupidity, and/or negligence on the part of another is never something anyone here wants to see.
Tommy, I think a lot of your comments hit marks that resonate - that I and others hear and agree with to varying extents - but this call-out was an uncalled for low blow.

[cancidas]

...but I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one life (or 168 collective lives) are worth more than another.
nobody here suggested it, but both Kennedy's and McVeigh's actions showed a complete and utter disregard for human life. their actions did all the suggesting necessary.

[T-Bird76]

:(


getting away with murder
Manslaughter and murder are two very different things. Was he guilty of manslaughter, or perhaps negligent homicide? Probably if not definitely. A murder charge? I don't think so.

Jeremy there's very good evidence to suggest that the death of Mary Jo was murder and not accidental manslaughter. If you spend some time and research and read the reports his story isn't on the level. If perhaps this was manslaughter are you saying that it lessons taking the life of someone because he was driving drunk and killed her?

[mirrodie]

NOTE TO SELF: do not get on the bad side of any nyca member for they WILL piss on your gravesite. :shock:

[jerslice]

If perhaps this was manslaughter are you saying that it lessons taking the life of someone because he was driving drunk and killed her?

Neither is right and both are reprehensible, but I don't think anyone here is suggesting that one life (or 168 collective lives) are worth more than another. The end of a life through violence, stupidity, and/or negligence on the part of another is never something anyone here wants to see.
And so now I'll add to that the taking of life accidentally doesn't lessen the loss of life - which would seem incredibly obvious to most people. :(

Anyway, lest I get misinterpreted again, I'm done. :?


NOTE TO SELF: do not get on the bad side of any nyca member for they WILL piss on your gravesite
I wouldn't.

In other news, Ted Kennedy died.

[cancidas]

And so now I'll add to that the taking of life accidentally doesn't lessen the loss of life - which would seem incredibly obvious to most people.
getting into a car and driving drunk at 100mph is not an accident. his actions were tantamount to murder.

[Gerard]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9c/TeddyVWad.jpg

LOL I saw that today and was going to post that in the Funny photo thread but I got yelled at when the AF plane crashed...so I said eh maybe not. LOL Very cleaver advertising though...

Uh you do know that is NOT a real advertisement? It was in National Lampoon magazine and written by Anne Beatts.
VW took legal action against them.

[jerslice]

Third degree murder is often referred to and logged into the court system as involuntary manslaughter. Involuntary manslaughter is murder that was not intended specifically by the defendant. Criminal negligence is often the precursor to involuntary manslaughter. Reckless use of a motor vehicle, firearms, explosives, animals, medicine, and the like that results in the death of a person falls under this category of murder. So unless he intentionally got tanked and intended to drive off the bridge and escape while also killing his passenger, it doesn't qualify as first degree (and not really second degree either) murder in the legal sense. I'm not saying there are arguments, even good ones to suggest it was very intentional. I'm just saying that based off what I've seen and read, I think murder of the second or first degree (particularly the first) is a tough sell, whereas involuntary manslaughter (the more common name for third degree murder) should've been a given.

[Gerard]

Was watching the coverage of Senator Kennedys life and times last night and interesting how many plane crashes effected his life. In 1944 his older brother, Joseph Jr, who he adored, was killed when his plane exploded over France during WW2. A sister, Kathleen, died in a plane crash in 1948. In 1964 Kennedy himself is involved in a plane crash that killed two and broke his back which bothered him the rest of his life. And of course the 1999 crash of his nephew JFK Jr.
A lot of the criticism of Kennedy is quite valid (boozing and womanizing) though I refuse to believe he "murdered" Mary Jo. Watching the coverage a common thread among friends and colleagues was how he was able to seperate the dark side of his personal life with his work as a senator. It was reported that after the rape trial of his nephew William Kennedy Smith in 1991 in which he had to testify and later that year the meeting and marrying of his wife Vicky that he finally grew up and got his life together.
Im not going to canonize the man but he did do so much in his 47 years as a senator. He was involved in passing over 5000 bills and 300 laws and was a hard-working, tireless advocate for the American people especially the sick and disabled, children and mothers. I can guarantee that in some way or form one or more of those bills or laws had an effect on your life, your family, your friends.
As I get older I try not to get judgemental about other people. None of us are perfect, we all have our demons and all families have "their stuff" though (hopefully) not played out on the national stage.

Some stories of his lasting legacy.....http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/lier ... -1.1397273 (http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/liers-whose-lives-edward-kennedy-changed-1.1397273)

[Gerard]

[quote="T-Bird76"]Here's my point guys.... Right now in the media and the country are celebrating a man that if anyone of us had the background of being kicked out of school, booted from the military, failing the Bar, being an chronic drunk, and getting away with murder we'd be vilified in society and more than likely in jail. Can that be disputed?

At the age of 19 he was kicked out of Harvard with a friend after allowing that friend to take a Spanish test for him.
Two years later he was allowed to RE-ENTER after demonstrating good behaviour. This was STANDARD Harvard treatment
in such cases. He exelled and graduated with a B.A. in history and government.
He was NOT booted out of the military. He enlisted after getting thrown out of Harvard and was discharged as a private first class. The only "negative" thing about his military service was that his father pulled strings to keep him out of Korea though it isnt reported that Kennedy asked his dad to do this.
He graduated from the University of Virginia Law School in 1959 and was admitted to the Massachusetts BAR in 1959.
Wow get your "facts" straight.

[NIKV69]

there's very good evidence to suggest that the death of Mary Jo was murder and not accidental manslaughter

Doubtful, murder needs premeditation. What most likely happened is Ted got tanked up at the party and was drunk when he drove off the bridge. He may have made some attempts to rescue her but once he failed he knew if he called 911 or anyone for that matter the fact he was drunk would come out. Hence the reason he didn't alert anyone till the next day. He got off light for what he did and it someone wanted to pursue it I don't think they would have got anything more than manslaughter with conspiracy to cover up the crime but he should have rotted in jail instead of getting 60 days suspended. Total joke.

[wunaladreamin]

If he was driving while intoxicated (a felony) as widely suspected, any loss of life occurring during that offense would therefore be a felony (murder) as well.

[jerslice]

If he was driving while intoxicated (a felony) as widely suspected, any loss of life occurring during that offense would therefore be a felony (murder) as well.

Third degree murder is often referred to and logged into the court system as involuntary manslaughter (felony). Involuntary manslaughter is murder that was not intended specifically by the defendant. Criminal negligence is often the precursor to involuntary manslaughter. Reckless use of a motor vehicle, firearms, explosives, animals, medicine, and the like that results in the death of a person falls under this category of murder. So unless he intentionally got tanked and intended to drive off the bridge and escape while also killing his passenger, it doesn't qualify as first degree (and not really second degree either) murder in the legal sense. I'm not saying there are arguments, even good ones to suggest it was very intentional (though I personally have a hard time believing them). I'm saying that based off what I've seen and read, I think murder of the second or first degree (particularly the first) is a very tough sell in this case, whereas involuntary manslaughter (the more common name for third degree murder) should've been a given.

[wunaladreamin]

I should have clarified further. The loss of life while a felony is being committed is felony murder 1 and NOT involuntary manslaughter. Nobody commits a felony involuntarily. He might not have intentionally gotten drunk, but nobody forced him to drive. Bad decision making and lack of consequential thinking enabled that. He also could have gotten help there a helluva lot sooner than 9 hours. Please. It was a death that shouldn't have happened especially because he should have never been behind the wheel.

[mmedford]

Let me ask this, will you respect Timothy Mcveigh when he dies?

Dude, for a guy who questions my memory, yours is a bit foggy. He was executed the day after my bday in 2001.

That said, like Phil, I just side with giving the guy, like Michael Jackson, a day where I dont piss on their graves.

heh; you were born June 10 I see...

He was executed on MY birthday; June 11th...

[jerslice]

I should have clarified further. The loss of life while a felony is being committed is felony murder 1 and NOT involuntary manslaughter. Nobody commits a felony involuntarily. He might not have intentionally gotten drunk, but nobody forced him to drive. Bad decision making and lack of consequential thinking enabled that. He also could have gotten help there a helluva lot sooner than 9 hours. Please. It was a death that shouldn't have happened especially because he should have never been behind the wheel.

DUI's are not usually a felony on their own - it has to be combined with loss of life, serious injury, or multiple previous infractions (three strikes law). A first time stand-alone infraction is usually not going to be a felony. However, as far as I'm aware of the law, it does not bump it up to murder 1. Instead it becomes vehicular manslaughter, or involuntary manslaughter - in some states it is defined as vehicular homicide (especially when combined with multiple moving violations in the incident and past DUI charges). Manslaughter is usually going to be the higher charge, so the DUI gets bumped up to a felony. It can't be murder because it doesn't actually pass any of the tests of murder. Murder one is premeditated, "in cold blood" killings. This was not a premeditated, cold blood killing - so it isn't murder 1. It is a tough sell for murder two as well - because that test is a crime of passion, "in the heat of the moment". Unless he dragged her to the car after a heated fight, locked the doors, and attempted a murder/suicide in which he decided he didn't want to die anymore - it doesn't pass the test for murder two either...

[wunaladreamin]

DUI's are not usually a felony on their own - it has to be combined with loss of life, serious injury, or multiple previous infractions (three strikes law). A first time stand-alone infraction is usually not going to be a felony. However, as far as I'm aware of the law, it does not bump it up to murder 1. Instead it becomes vehicular manslaughter, or involuntary manslaughter - in some states it is defined as vehicular homicide (especially when combined with multiple moving violations in the incident and past DUI charges). Manslaughter is usually going to be the higher charge, so the DUI gets bumped up to a felony. It can't be murder because it doesn't actually pass any of the tests of murder. Murder one is premeditated, "in cold blood" killings. This was not a premeditated, cold blood killing - so it isn't murder 1. It is a tough sell for murder two as well - because that test is a crime of passion, "in the heat of the moment". Unless he dragged her to the car after a heated fight, locked the doors, and attempted a murder/suicide in which he decided he didn't want to die anymore - it doesn't pass the test for murder two either...
DUI's and DWI's are two different things. DUI's are misdemeanors, DWI's are felonies. It all depends on the subject's BAC level. A first time stand-alone infraction indeed can be a felonious act depending again on BAC levels. Once again, the loss of life during the undertaking of a felonious act will result in another felonious charge being murder 1. It will not be thought of as not premeditated as, like I said, nobody commits a felony by accident. It doesn't matter the circumstances in which she entered the car, if he was drunk, he in no way should have been operation a motor vehicle. Plain and simple.

[jerslice]

Once again, the loss of life during the undertaking of a felonious act will result in another felonious charge being murder 1. It will not be thought of as not premeditated as, like I said, nobody commits a felony by accident.

I don't see anything online that shows that. I'd be happy to agree with you if it's there - but I can't find anything to prove that out.
Murder is defined primarily by motive and intent - not by result.

Plus, while there are differences between DWI/DUI - no one actually knows what his BAC level was - so it's hard to say whether he was a DUI or DWI case.

[wunaladreamin]

Once again, the loss of life during the undertaking of a felonious act will result in another felonious charge being murder 1. It will not be thought of as not premeditated as, like I said, nobody commits a felony by accident.

I don't see anything online that shows that. I'd be happy to agree with you if it's there - but I can't find anything to prove that out.
Murder is defined primarily by motive and intent - not by result.
I know law varies state to state but that's the statute here.

[jerslice]

I know law varies state to state but that's the statute here.

Interesting - I've never seen that. Do you have a link to it? I'd like to read it over. (and I'm not necessarily looking to prove you wrong - I've just worked in law for awhile and I've never seen it work that way - I'd like to see how it reads)

I have seen where prosecutors will seek (and be granted) murder two charges on a case where the defendant has prior DUI and/or DWI/OUI convictions - arguing that they already knew the dangers of operating under the influence and chose to do so anyways. But I haven't seen murder one.

DUI/DWI definitions and applications vary heavily by state - it gets really murky.

[moose135]

It doesn't matter the circumstances in which she entered the car, if he was drunk, he in no way should have been operation a motor vehicle.
Emphasis added...this is all speculation, as no one here knows if he had been drinking, how much he had been drinking, or what his BAC might have been. I know some of you are going to say "Of course he was drunk..." but the fact remains there is no evidence of it.

[wunaladreamin]

It doesn't matter the circumstances in which she entered the car, if he was drunk, he in no way should have been operation a motor vehicle.
Emphasis added...this is all speculation, as no one here knows if he had been drinking, how much he had been drinking, or what his BAC might have been. I know some of you are going to say "Of course he was drunk..." but the fact remains there is no evidence of it.
Indeed, but also take into consideration 9 hours of time elapsed before any authorities were contacted. So even if he were drunk at the time of the incident, he very well may have sobered up enough to avoid such charges.

[NIKV69]

Indeed, but also take into consideration 9 hours of time elapsed before any authorities were contacted. So even if he were drunk at the time of the incident, he very well may have sobered up enough to avoid such charges.



Well it is the only reason anyone in their right mind would not seek help after pinning someone in their car under water after a MV accident. If he had not been drinking he would have contacted authorities. Whether they could have got her out in time is something we will never know but driving home late after a party and not calling anyone after a car accident? Sure John I bet he was stone cold sober.

[Gerard]

Without getting into politics, did the Kennedy family charter a plane to fly from Hanscom to Andrews? Or was it a
govt jet? With the size of their entourage they must have needed a 747!!! :)

[Matt Molnar]

Good question. Looks like he got a C-32. Video: http://www.thebostonchannel.com/video/2 ... index.html (http://www.thebostonchannel.com/video/20620668/index.html)