Bomb Scare LGA This Morning

[Gerard]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crim ... uated.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/08/01/2009-08-01_bomb_scare_at_nyc_laguardia_airport_planes_and_ terminal_evacuated.html)

[emshighway]

The terminal opened around 0900 but of course it will be a mess for the rest of the day and tomorrow. Can't talk about the specifics yet but the reactions of TSA, PAPD and NYPD appeared to be legit.

[emshighway]

AP Story:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/ ... SECTION=US (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_LAGUARDIA_EVACUATION?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US)

[PhilDernerJr]

I actually had the chance to speak to a couple people closely involved with what happened today, and it sounds like this guy was a nutjob that had all the making of an actual bomb, except for actual explosives; wires, detonator, etc., and that the bomb squad wasn't even sure if it really was a bomb or not for a bit.

[emshighway]

I actually had the chance to speak to a couple people closely involved with what happened today, and it sounds like this guy was a nutjob that had all the making of an actual bomb, except for actual explosives; wires, detonator, etc., and that the bomb squad wasn't even sure if it really was a bomb or not for a bit.

Yea, he had a duffel bag with a box strapped under it with toggle switches. Certainly looked like the real thing. When he reached back to flip one of the switches he was lucky the PA Cop didn't shoot him. It appears from the info I got everyone did the right thing.

Glad I slept through it. :borat:

[PhilDernerJr]

Actually, why DIDN'T the cop shoot him?

[wunaladreamin]

Because if it turned out the bomb was no good, someone would have posted their cell phone camera video on youtube and Sharpton would be marching up and down 4/22 demanding justice against the racist pig cop.

[PhilDernerJr]

I agree that such a thing would have happened afterwards, but that should not influence a police officer's decision to potentially save hundreds int he immediate vicinity of a man about to hit a switch. That makes me feel slightly less safe. It's a shame society responds in that manner though.

[cancidas]

I agree that such a thing would have happened afterwards, but that should not influence a police officer's decision to potentially save hundreds int he immediate vicinity of a man about to hit a switch. That makes me feel slightly less safe. It's a shame society responds in that manner though.
sadly, that's the world we live in now. when the president himself speaks on the actions of a single officer it's definately going to weigh in on the minds of an officer, especially so when it involves thousands of people and a possible bomb.

[T-Bird76]

Interesting how in one post this turns into a topic on race when it has nothing to do with race. Scanning through a number of articles online race hasn't been brought up once, but here it does. Why assume the officer would have been better off shooting the suspect when it seems by the events he was within close quarters and within reach to subdue the suspect? Sharpton might be a prick but there are times he's right about racism within the Police.

[PhilDernerJr]

Let's not ctonie down the race debate. I see both sides. Either way, I'm gla everything turned out well. The bad guy went to jail and the good people got to go about their day. :)

[coachrowsey]

What I fail to understand for the life of me is WHY PAPD made the decision to evacuate AFTER the perp. was in custody? IMO wrong decision. All it would take is a diversion like this at 3 or 4 airports, then some one light the bombs off will all those people out there then 9/11 would look like nothing. They've got to start making wiser decisions.

Never thought I'd be so happy to be in Atl yesterday :lol: see my trip report.

[PhilDernerJr]

New posts pertaining to race in this thread will result in a [2-week] ban.

EDIT: Please respect our rules that pertain to far off topic thread hijacking, which loosely should not exceed two posts. Importantly, please also respect requests to stop further posts. This kind of "double" violation is what results in a short ban.

Now back to talking about the great job that PAPD did. :mrgreen:

[PhilDernerJr]

What I fail to understand for the life of me is WHY PAPD made the decision to evacuate AFTER the perp. was in custody? IMO wrong decision. All it would take is a diversion like this at 3 or 4 airports, then some one light the bombs off will all those people out there then 9/11 would look like nothing. They've got to start making wiser decisions.

Never thought I'd be so happy to be in Atl yesterday :lol: see my trip report.

I understood that the incident itself from "bomb emergence to custody was over in a matter of seconds, so it wouldn't have been possible to evacuate before he was in custody.

LAw enforcement folks please correct me if I'm wrong, but even with him being in custody, his device was still there and it took time to determine that it was safe.

[coachrowsey]

And Phil, that's all the more reason to NOT evacuate.

[PhilDernerJr]

If you think there might be a live bomb in the terminal, why would you NOT evac? You want to keep them there?

[coachrowsey]

If you think there might be a live bomb in the terminal, why would you NOT evac? You want to keep them there?

Phil:
You most likely(being in NYC) have much more info than I. Maybe I should re phrase. If the supposed bomb was found in which ever terminal, why would you evacuate the concourses also rather than just the area where the supposed bomb was found?

[PhilDernerJr]

I would jsut think to get everyone out so tha tyou don't have peopel trapped in the concourses if something happens in the terminal area. I see your point though.

[emshighway]

The TSA Behavioral Detection Officer and the TSA Officer working at the Ticket Document Checker position recognized the person was acting strangely then the box attached to his duffel bag was noticed. PAPD was called as per protocol. When the officer arrived, the suspect began reaching around the bag and the officer took the quick action of subduing the suspect and separating him from the bag. As the bag had switches and wires attached the decision was made to immediately evacuate the area.

Some of the things you need to keep in mind is even though the suspect was removed from IED this doesn't mean the device could not be detonated. There have been incidents where a suicide bomber has went to back out and a spotter was in the area to remotely detonate the device.

The bomb squad examined the device and couldn't rule out it being legit or not so it was disrupted. There are several reasons why the evacuation would extend to the entire terminal. Dependant on the size and makeup of the possible explosive the recommended safe zone is 1000 feet. Also there is a possibility of chemical, biological or nuclear agents being within the device (your dirty bomb).

There is an issue with evacuating people and herding them outside. I have run and been involved with tabletop exercises and this is always discussed. The passengers were correctly evacuated away from curbside and the glass frontage. There was a searches for secondary devices and a heightened awareness within the groupings of people. With the amount of people that need to be evacuated this is always a concern.

[PhilDernerJr]

Makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

[coachrowsey]

I can understand evacuate the area, but dump the terminal or terminals where people are already safe makes no sense to me. IMO PAPD got this one wrong. As I said earlier had this been a set up now you have the massess out there to light up the real thing. Multiply this by 3 or 4 airports & 9/11 will look like nothing.

[emshighway]

I can understand evacuate the area, but dump the terminal or terminals where people are already safe makes no sense to me. IMO PAPD got this one wrong. As I said earlier had this been a set up now you have the massess out there to light up the real thing. Multiply this by 3 or 4 airports & 9/11 will look like nothing.

You are new on the board so you don't know all the players here. Let's just say I am not speculating, I am directly involved in these matters. I have been in Emergency Management most of my life and am at LGA. In the situation such as this, securing in place is not really the option. I understand your idea of just evacuate the C concourse, but we are not talking about just blasts anymore. There are other possibilities such as CBN and if there was an explosion, the panic of the passenger would be tragic then people would be second guessing why the terminal wasn't evacuated. Just from a blast, the percussion would cause shrapnel from all the wonderful glass and metal the terminal is made of. The evacuation usually is just to the local area then it is up to the bomb squad on if they want to increase the safe zone. Since the Bomb Squad disrupted the package they want the room.

The risk of the crowds is known but the incident commander needs to weigh the risks. Something you never want to be in the position to do.

[coachrowsey]

But again, you evcauted all those people that were safe out to where ever you moved them to. Now you have the massess light the bomb. Which is worse ?

[T-Bird76]

But again, you evcauted all those people that were safe out to where ever you moved them to. Now you have the massess light the bomb. Which is worse ?

I think the other point to keep in mind, from a crowd management standpoint if PAPD needed to further move the people farther away from LGA its easier if everyone is in one central location. Think about if they kept the people in the piers and something did go off and cut them off. You'd have people here and there with perhaps limited support to help them in those blocked off areas. I was at ISP in 2002 when there was a bomb scare, they moved us to one central parking lot. Of course a bomber could be within the crowd and set something off, that's impossible to know, you weigh your options and risks.

[Gerard]

But again, you evcauted all those people that were safe out to where ever you moved them to. Now you have the massess light the bomb. Which is worse ?

I am sorry but I dont get what you are saying? Maybe I'm dense here. Are you saying they would blow up the people out where they evacuated to?
And how exactly were the people safe in the terminals? The authorities had no clue if this device was real, if this guy was a legit
terrorist or just a psycho and if there were any other devices or perps in other parts of the terminal.
PAPD did the right thing here. I believe protocol in any explosive device situation is evacuation as far as possible.

[coachrowsey]

But again, you evcauted all those people that were safe out to where ever you moved them to. Now you have the massess light the bomb. Which is worse ?

I am sorry but I dont get what you are saying? Maybe I'm dense here. Are you saying they would blow up the people out where they evacuated to?
And how exactly were the people safe in the terminals? The authorities had no clue if this device was real, if this guy was a legit
terrorist or just a psycho and if there were any other devices or perps in other parts of the terminal.
PAPD did the right thing here. I believe protocol in any explosive device situation is evacuation as far as possible.
Let me see if I can be clear. The psgrs on the concourse or courses have all ready been screened(although that's questionable) the perp was taken down. Now you dump the concourse or concourses you have all these people piled out there together. Now if this had been a diversion(thank God it wasn't) a terrorist or team sets off real explosives among all these people that have been dumped from the sterle area.

[cancidas]

Let me see if I can be clear. The psgrs on the concourse or courses have all ready been screened(although that's questionable) the perp was taken down. Now you dump the concourse or concourses you have all these people piled out there together. Now if this had been a diversion(thank God it wasn't) a terrorist or team sets off real explosives among all these people that have been dumped from the sterle area.
i don't seem to follow what you're looking for. the decision was made by the people on the ground, the people that are trained to do what they do on a regular basis. sitting here now tearing it apart is donig nothing more than wasting time.

[emshighway]

Let me see if I can be clear. The psgrs on the concourse or courses have all ready been screened(although that's questionable) the perp was taken down. Now you dump the concourse or concourses you have all these people piled out there together. Now if this had been a diversion(thank God it wasn't) a terrorist or team sets off real explosives among all these people that have been dumped from the sterle area.

Don't know what you imply by the "although that's questionable" comment. Yes, they are clear but that doesn't mean they are safe if there was an explosion. Yes, the diversion situation is there (I think I have said this three times already). You are damned if you do, damned if you don't but for control of the terminal and the safety of the passengers they are sometimes better off outside. Like Matt said, it is the people with boots on the ground to make that decision. We go through exercises all the time and I am usually the one bringing up your concern of the herding effect. I understand it but it is the particular incident that affects the decision. All the Monday morning quarterbacking doesn't do anything.

[Gerard]

>Let me see if I can be clear. The psgrs on the concourse or courses have all ready been screened(although that's questionable) the perp was taken down. Now you dump the concourse or concourses you have all these people piled out there together. Now if this had been a diversion(thank God it wasn't) a terrorist or team sets off real explosives among all these people that have been dumped from the sterle area.[/quote]<

I still believe the authorities did the right thing. Protocol is to evacuate and history of such incidents here in the US is that bombers
attack structures. Of course the fear of suicide bombers in crowds of people which happen with frightening frequency in Iraq, Pakistan,
India, Israel etc is on the minds of those in command and I can guarantee (Right EMSHIghway? :) )they are prepared for such a
scenario but they reacted correctly according to their training.
Maybe if suicide bombers in crowds happen here they will react differently. For now..........
BTW if that ever happened here God Help Us All!!!!!!!!

[MarkLawrence]

My thought is - at the end of the day, you want the people in the safest place. If something happens in the terminal, explosives and buildings tend to cause a lot more problems than if people were outside. If you get everyone outside and then something happens, that unfortunately is out of the hands of the people controlling the situation. If you herd them inside to a "safe" location, who knows what might happen to the building. Isn't that why lockers were removed from the insides of terminals? In case of something happening in the lockers?

[emshighway]

I was at ISP in 2002 when there was a bomb scare, they moved us to one central parking lot. Of course a bomber could be within the crowd and set something off, that's impossible to know, you weigh your options and risks.

Was this the one with the bag on the carousel? I think I was there and LIMA PD made their command post next to the sail boat. I walked in and reminded them they were standing under a glass box and the percussion would make some nice shrapnel. I told them I would be down the side of the terminal away from things that could cut me, they followed. There was also a suggestion to back people off deeper into the parking lot away from the frontage.

[T-Bird76]

I was at ISP in 2002 when there was a bomb scare, they moved us to one central parking lot. Of course a bomber could be within the crowd and set something off, that's impossible to know, you weigh your options and risks.

Was this the one with the bag on the carousel? I think I was there and LIMA PD made their command post next to the sail boat. I walked in and reminded them they were standing under a glass box and the percussion would make some nice shrapnel. I told them I would be down the side of the terminal away from things that could cut me, they followed. There was also a suggestion to back people off deeper into the parking lot away from the frontage.

It was 2003 now that I checked the pic I took while we were waiting to go back in the terminal. From what I recall it was some kind of luggage scare.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=215467

[emshighway]

[quote="T-Bird76":mrzmc3ab] I was at ISP in 2002 when there was a bomb scare, they moved us to one central parking lot. Of course a bomber could be within the crowd and set something off, that's impossible to know, you weigh your options and risks.

Was this the one with the bag on the carousel? I think I was there and LIMA PD made their command post next to the sail boat. I walked in and reminded them they were standing under a glass box and the percussion would make some nice shrapnel. I told them I would be down the side of the terminal away from things that could cut me, they followed. There was also a suggestion to back people off deeper into the parking lot away from the frontage.

It was 2003 now that I checked the pic I took while we were waiting to go back in the terminal. From what I recall it was some kind of luggage scare.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=215467[/quote:mrzmc3ab]

Yep, that was it and the photos perfectly proves my point.