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PhilDernerJr
07-16-2009, 01:55 PM
The top priority of NYCAviation is to be a place for enthusiasts to come and be able to enjoy aviation with like-minded people. Our Message Board is the nucleus of the community, where people can interact and share in our passion for all that flies.

People's comfort is key. Every single member needs to feel welcome here. We have been experiencing an influx of new memberships, and I want everyone to be able to join the dicsussions, have fun and get along with others with minimal hiccups.

I am in the process of making revisions and additions to the Forum Rules, but effectively immediately, there are to be zero degrading comments made towards any other member on the forums or in PM. Quite simply, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

If there is a member that asks a question that you feel should be "obvious", unnecessary remarks in response will result in deletions or even immediate bans. We should be ready to welcome and educate newcomers or anyone who wants to learn and take part in our hobby, and if you're not willing to help people, don't say anything. If someone is posting too many threads with questions or if there's an issue with these post, send me a message or email and I will address it myself.

If any person annoys you, as stated in another thread, you can also utilize the "Foe" feature. If there is a problem with another member, don't reply to them, but contact ME instead. I will review and address every question that comes my way.

We know we joke around with friends and poke at each other and have many laughs and good times, but it is known and obvious when it's a joke and when it is not. There is no need for the latter. There is to be no abuse or ridicule of members in threads or PM.

We are all on the same team. Let's all please treat each other like that.

Thanks,

-Phil

PhilDernerJr
07-16-2009, 02:55 PM
I would like to add that I don't want anyone to think I am referring to them as being in violation of this. I'm angry at no one, and it's nothign personal against anybody. I'd rather go with a clean slate and let us all know how it will go from here on our. I just wanted to emphasize how important this is.

Thanks, folks.

NIKV69
07-16-2009, 03:02 PM
I am in the process of making revisions and additions to the Forum Rules, but effectively immediately, there are to be zero degrading comments made towards any other member on the forums or in PM. Quite simply, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all

Rules are great Phil but if you don't enforce them they are worthless. For the longest time this forum has not been moderated and many individuals have been allowed to basically do anything they want. I know many here are friends but to have your wish of a forum where everyone feels comfortable you need to moderate it much more aggressively and blindly. Too many threads are allowed to be dragged off topic and as you have said many have been the target of some who feel their questions are not worthy. Instead of that approach I think a moderator should #1 delete the posts of those who insult and #2 a nice message with a link to a previous thread where the question was discussed already posted and subsequently locking the thread. Would alleviate a ton of problems.

PhilDernerJr
07-16-2009, 03:27 PM
Enforcement will certainly be increased, and I agree we've been lax on that...all of which is my fault.

I'm friends or friendly with many people here, so if someone gets their posts deleted, it shouldn't be taken personally. Nothing that happens in terms of moderating should be taken personally, as I don't dispense it personally.

Deletion will be the procedure for such behavior, along with any follow-up that might be necessary.

Although, there will always be a gray area of "was that too far?" when it comes to people's comments towards others. Myself and the mods will work towards shrinking that gray area, and hopefully making members thnk "hmmm, this might be unnecessary or troublesome" before making aggressive posts.

The most important thing that people can do is to contact mods or myself when something happens. We can't always see everything, now can we know how people feel. It's like neighbors watching a house on fire and not calling 911 and wondering why the house burned. We want to help, but we need your help. If a disagreement comes up and a member references something from the past, one of our first questions will be "did you report it?".

From the other side of those posts, I will work to make sure that those who have a difficult time learning message board etiquette will be shown how to use the search function and post their questions productively...not only to keep the forums clean, but to enhance their own educational experience here.

All of this is a team effort from members to mods. Creating rules and respecting them and other members takes care of all of it.

T-Bird76
07-16-2009, 05:13 PM
Does this new rule apply to the Moderators as well?

mirrodie
07-16-2009, 05:21 PM
a forum where everyone feels comfortable you need to moderate it much more aggressively and blindly.

While I agree more blindly, or more impartially, I doubt that aggressive moderating would foster more comfort, would it?

T-Bird76
07-16-2009, 05:29 PM
a forum where everyone feels comfortable you need to moderate it much more aggressively and blindly.

While I agree more blindly, or more impartially, I doubt that aggressive moderating would foster more comfort, would it?

Prob not..from what I'm reading it really comes down to moderation by perception. Perhaps if pointless posts weren't so rampart there would be less "aggression" no?

PhilDernerJr
07-16-2009, 05:55 PM
Yes, moderators are just as succeptible to these rules as well. Even myself. If I did something that warrants deletion, mods are welcome to delete my posts. If I do something that warrants a ban, then I'll not post and only do admin work for whatever the determined time is.

If someone feels there are pointless posts being made by a member, they should report it to mods ro myself, who will deal with the situation. Responding with anything from jokes/sarcasm/ridicule is not the appropriate response to such posts. Point it out to us and we'll take care of it. :)

As for "aggressive" moderating, that's subjective. There's a difference between enforcing rules with consistency and dropping the hammer on anything and everything. There's a middle ground that must constantly be maintained and adapted to in any growing community. We are growing, and it's important that whatever rules we make, that we adhere to them, with mods enforcing where needd, and members respecting those rules.

NIKV69
07-16-2009, 06:35 PM
I doubt that aggressive moderating would foster more comfort, would it?



For whom? The people who have been constantly hijacking speedbirds threads? By being more agressive I mean for someone like yourself to step in early in the thread and inform him the question he is asking has been discussed. Maybe posting a link so he can find it and then locking his thread. Instead we get a total waste of time when people start throwing out one liners and jokes that can be taken a multitude of ways. I have to say Mario I see a big difference in how you moderate here than how you moderate on anet and that is part of the reason I think Phil has taken this action. Sure there are people that are not up on recent events in the aviation world and they should be treated a little better and they are entitled to the same moderation you would expect in the same situation.


There's a difference between enforcing rules with consistency and dropping the hammer on anything and everything. There's a middle ground that must constantly be maintained and adapted to in any growing community

Well said

PhilDernerJr
07-16-2009, 06:43 PM
For whom? The people who have been constantly hijacking speedbirds threads? By being more agressive I mean for someone like yourself to step in early in the thread and inform him the question he is asking has been discussed. Maybe posting a link so he can find it and then locking his thread. Instead we get a total waste of time when people start throwing out one liners and jokes that can be taken a multitude of ways. I have to say Mario I see a big difference in how you moderate here than how you moderate on anet and that is part of the reason I think Phil has taken this action. Sure there are people that are not up on recent events in the aviation world and they should be treated a little better and they are entitled to the same moderation you would expect in the same situation.

My reference to "clean slate" is that threads of the past not be discussed, so please no more discussion on specifics like that, and I ask that other members not respond to this. I'd rather we learn from what's been said in earlier posts and move on accordingly. I do prefer that members be treated nicely and without any form of negativity when asking questions, regardless of how those questions are perceived.


Well said

Thank you.

PhilDernerJr
07-16-2009, 06:45 PM
To add, there will be no modification to the Forum Rules. I went through them and I feel that what exists will cover the above topic. Please all review:

Respect: Passionate discussion and debate is understandable and expected for certain subject matter. However, please remember to keep your posts respectful. If it is deemed a poster is out of line or purposely attempting to provoke other members, their posts may be removed or edited and the poster will be notified. Please notify an Administrator if any abuse occurs (see "Reporting Posts" below).

Personal Attacks: There are no personal attacks allowed. This includes name-calling. Refrain from making small snide or sarcastic remarks. Learn to disagree without telling the person that they are stupid, even indirectly with sarcastic comments. Explain your points with terms like "I feel," or "I think," to be less aggressive. Address the post and not the poster. Remember, calling someone's opinions or posts stupid is also a personal attack.

Retaliation and Engaging. If you read a harshly worded comment about a company that you happen to work for, do not interpret it as a personal attack. If you, as an employee, have some information that might constructively add to the conversation, please share it, but otherwise please do not respond angrily to the poster just because you feel obligated to defend your company. Similarly, responding angrily to any post, whether it violates a rule or not, is subject to moderator action, as it adds to unnecessary conflict. Such posts should be reported instead of responded to. (Revision 7/19/08)

Thanks.

mirrodie
07-16-2009, 08:54 PM
I have to say Mario I see a big difference in how you moderate here than how you moderate on anet


If I may address your observation:

Of course there is. And why? This is a smaller community which Phil has, in the past, encouraged to somewhat laid back. Further, Anet has over 80,000 users, a larger cultural diversity of users and jokes/sarcasm can be lost in translation for more easily over there. Furthermore, there are much more rules that have evolved over the last 10 years to enforce.

Whereas on this site, not only is there a (growing) fraction of users, but we are lucky in that we are a much closer community and therefore we take for granted that we throw jokes and sarcasm more loosely. Its not done in a way to offend, Nick and I'm sure you'd agree. When we converge at each other's homes, parks or restaurants, we are a lively crowd, always laughing it up and joking. And hence I firmly believe that culture of joking around may have split over too much and affected my moderating and our attitudes towards each other.

ONward and upward.

PhilDernerJr
07-16-2009, 08:56 PM
Well said, Mario.

NIKV69
07-16-2009, 09:13 PM
Whereas on this site, not only is there a (growing) fraction of users, but we are lucky in that we are a much closer community and therefore we take for grantedthat we throw jokes and sarcasm more loosely. Its not done in a way to offend, Nick and I'm sure you'd agree. When we converge at each other's homes, parks or restaurants, we are a lively crowd, always laughing it up and joking. And hence I firmly believe that culture of joking around may have split over too much and affected my moderating and our attitudes towards each other

And when a user that is not in this circle and not used to these "jokes" and "sarcasm" is involved then what? What will happen is what has happened here. Things have gotten out of control due to just about a total lack of moderation. If you are going to have a site and hence a message board on the internet not every user will understand the circles of friends or humor you speak of. Which is why a more prudent way of moderating is to treat everyone the same with the same level of professionalism and respect you would want. One thing about joking and sarcasm, it usually ends up going to far. Which is exactly what happened here. You are exactly right in what you said above about each others homes, parks and restaurants, but it needs to be left there and not brought to the forums. If you want to create a more accomadating enviorment.

PhilDernerJr
07-16-2009, 09:20 PM
Nick, that is what we are looking to no longer have and tolerate here. :)

mirrodie
07-16-2009, 09:46 PM
And when a user that is not in this circle and not used to these "jokes" and "sarcasm" is involved then what? What will happen is what has happened here. Things have gotten out of control due to just about a total lack of moderation. If you are going to have a site and hence a message board on the internet not every user will understand the circles of friends or humor you speak of. Which is why a more prudent way of moderating is to treat everyone the same with the same level of professionalism and respect you would want. One thing about joking and sarcasm, it usually ends up going to far. Which is exactly what happened here. You are exactly right in what you said above about each others homes, parks and restaurants, but it needs to be left there and not brought to the forums. If you want to create a more accomadating enviorment.


Um, Nick, you are basically regurgitating what I said and punctuated with:

And hence I firmly believe that culture of joking around may have split over too much and affected my moderating and our attitudes towards each other????

The problem has been identified, discussed and time to move onward and upward in an attempt to improve, not wallow in the past.

PhilDernerJr
07-17-2009, 08:26 AM
Mario is correct. I take responsibility for faults of the site in the past, and from here we would like to not dwel and proceed to the future. Give it a chance, Nick, I think you'll enjoy it. :)