ID Cards for Heathrow Spotters

[MarkLawrence]

I saw this on the jp forums today:

http://forums.jetphotos.net/showthread.php?t=46274

Very interesting! I like the idea - I really do - I'm sure something like this could be done here - I'm prepared to try and approach Palm Beach County Commissioners for PBI and Broward County for FLL - if anyone thinks it might be of some benefit to the hobby.

[nikon50bigma]

Would be AWESOME if we could have a system like that here in NYC!!

[mmedford]

Would be AWESOME if we could have a system like that here in NYC!!

Port would never allow it, their too anal even with background checked employees...

[PhilDernerJr]

If we as a group were to make our own cards, then we are liable should anyone misbehave in some way....we all become responsible and will be affected by any punishment.

Backgrounds checks are costly, and many agencies are unwilling to conduct them for non-employees. Some have even suggested that regardless of willingness, they can't just grant checks as easy as that.

I, too, agree that Port IDs would be the toughest to obtain due to the red tape involved and the complexity of their ID system. Other cities might have an easier time, but unless they are already fully aware of the hobby and its significant numbers in their area, they will probably also be unwilling.

[mmedford]

If we as a group were to make our own cards, then we are liable should anyone misbehave in some way....we all become responsible and will be affected by any punishment.

Backgrounds checks are costly, and many agencies are unwilling to conduct them for non-employees. Some have even suggested that regardless of willingness, they can't just grant checks as easy as that.

I, too, agree that Port IDs would be the toughest to obtain due to the red tape involved and the complexity of their ID system. Other cities might have an easier time, but unless they are already fully aware of the hobby and its significant numbers in their area, they will probably also be unwilling.

Phil, making our own cards sound like a brilliant idea. I am definately for that. Great way to ID each other when out in the field shooting as well, also especially with the PDs that we run into often. We can make it known, when investigating "individual with a camera near JFK/LGA, look for NYCA badge as a sign of good faith" or something.

EDIT; alittle googling and I come across this http://www.easyidcard.com/

[PhilDernerJr]

What I was saying is that an organization like NYCA would have a serious liability if we made our own cards. There are many members here, and I don't know about everyone's background or history. If someone did something wrong while spotting, NYCA can be blamed, or we would have to face the punishment as a group.

Also, we can make IDs, but that doesn't mean they truly mean anything or that the card would be taken seriously by authorities.

IDs have been discussed many times, and it is ultimately not something that we can really do. The risks outweigh the advantages.

[Delta777LR]

What I was saying is that an organization like NYCA would have a serious liability if we made our own cards. There are many members here, and I don't know about everyone's background or history. If someone did something wrong while spotting, NYCA can be blamed, or we would have to face the punishment as a group.

Also, we can make IDs, but that doesn't mean they truly mean anything or that the card would be taken seriously by authorities.

IDs have been discussed many times, and it is ultimately not something that we can really do. The risks outweigh the advantages.

Phil you do have a good point. NYCA has so much members and half of us dont know each other very well. Yes, it would be very awesome to make such like NYCA ID cards, yes that would one of the best ways to recognize each other while spotting but yes, its true, NYCA dont want to be blame for any misbehaving which I dont think we really do such thing.

[Jetinder]

Sounds like a good idea but in practice not that good becuase if you only go there every now and again, I'm not sure if the id card would be valid.

For me up to 2003 (when Concorde was flying) thats when the scheme was really needed.

My experience of Heathrow Police is very unpleasant as in summer 2003 while i innocently chased Concorde around the public roads of Heathrow i was stopped and searched many many times by Heathrow Police officers purely because i was "an Indian" with a high powered SLR camera.

Those guys made my life hell and at times i was brought to tears because of the way they behaved towards me.

Afterwards I was in contact in Heathrow's MD and Heathrow Police's managers I explained things to them, they tried to help but some Heathrow Police officers where still nasty pieces of work.

One time during a stop and search they told me their bosses had asked them to pick on me and make my life a misery, even though i was not doing anything bad or illegal.

So i don't trust them and i don't trust the ID card scheme.

On one side the Police go on and on about how they want people to trust them and work with them etc, on the otherside they upset innocent people like me for no valid reason and thus make people like me loose trust and respect for them.

They can't have it both ways.....

[Delta777LR]

I hate when that happens, Police attempt to aim at dark skin people very often and its a disgrace. The reason I believe they do that with dark skin people is because they look like terriost, and in my opinion no one should judge a book by its cover.

[T-Bird76]

I think we've been very lucky as most Police around JFK are now use to us and do their thing and leave, and most times are rather respectful.

These cards wouldn't be helpful here. JFK isn’t like LHR or even LAX where a card would come in handy. JFK deals with three Police forces, NYPD, PAPD, and NCPD. Each would have to agree to the program and logistically work with it. That alone makes managing a program like this somewhat logistically prohibitive to run.

Plus remember we live in a free country if you're on public lands then you can take pics of whatever you desire and if asked for ID a Gov't issued ID is all you need. If you're private property then even these cards are useless.

[Jetinder]

I hate when that happens, Police attempt to aim at dark skin people very often and its a disgrace. The reason I believe they do that with dark skin people is because they look like terriost, and in my opinion no one should judge a book by its cover
I fully agree with you, although I am Indian I am not a Muslim by birth I'm a Sikh but Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs "look the same" hence i guess why the Police picked on me the most.

99.9% of Muslims are decent, hard working, honest people and no one should label them as bad because 1 or 2 of them have stupid ideas.


JFK isn’t like LHR or even LAX where a card would come in handy. JFK deals with three Police forces, NYPD, PAPD, and NCPD. Each would have to agree to the program and logistically work with it. That alone makes managing a program like this somewhat logistically prohibitive to run. That sounds very complex and i can see your point of view.

At LHR Heathrow Police belong to the Metropolitan Police (which look after the whole of London), but Metropolitan Police also has other off shoots like City of London Police and River Thames Police.

The City of London Police look after the City of London where all the banks and finance houses are, the River Thames Police looks after every thing on the river Thames.

[Planesntrains]

Backgrounds checks are costly, and many agencies are unwilling to conduct them for non-employees. Some have even suggested that regardless of willingness, they can't just grant checks as easy as that.

That is very true. However, if in approaching the proper authorities in South Florida, he were to discuss the possibility of the individuals interested in the permit/id/whatever of paying for it as part of the application process, I think they might be receptive. Hey...for better access to the other public areas without worry of any major drama, I'd pay a couple hundred bucks for a one time check.

I guess maybe it's also that we went through this with NJTransit. I was one of the guys that supported permits. Those of us who did get them, would be approached by the police, show them it, and they'd walk away. The guys that didn't would get the fifth degree for a while to make them sweat. More than a few guys even got ejected. The policy was eventually eliminated, though most of the cops still don't know that.

I'd say go for it. I wouldn't mind seeing something at RSW or ORD either since I have family in Naples and the Western Suburbs.

No doubt Medford is right though. Probably would be a cold day in heck before PANYNJ even would listen without laughing though. :roll:

[Mateo]

The biggest problem with IDs is that you separate everyone into cardholders and non-cardholders. It makes it so that cardholders have an affirmative right to spot, and non-cardholders are presumed not to have that same right, i.e. "you can't be here, you don't have the spotter card."

[moose135]

The biggest problem with IDs is that you separate everyone into cardholders and non-cardholders. It makes it so that cardholders have an affirmative right to spot, and non-cardholders are presumed not to have that same right, i.e. "you can't be here, you don't have the spotter card."
Exactly. I think the better approach is to work with local authorities to educate them on what we are doing, so when they do get the inevitable calls, they are aware of what we are doing and hopefully will be less confrontational.

[Planesntrains]

Exactly. I think the better approach is to work with local authorities to educate them on what we are doing, so when they do get the inevitable calls, they are aware of what we are doing and hopefully will be less confrontational.

The only problem with the education only approach is that there is no written policy, or hard documentation. In that situation, all it takes is one hot-shot cop or commander who thinks all spotters are terrorists, hates them, and refuses to allow them "on his watch" to still create problems. Basically same as it is now for the most part.

With an ID program and education together, spotters have hard proof that they are permitted to be there and the powers that be sanctioned it. Would someone without a spotter card have an issue? Sure. But it would be easily solved by applying for one, and officers or security could easily direct that individual on how to get one. Would it eliminate the "hot shot" possibility? No, but at least with this approach there would be a hard line, or set of guidelines of specifically what a "cleared" spotter would have to be doing wrong to be hassled.

Again...maybe it's cause on the railfan side, I've been through this all before. I'm a member of the BNSF Railway program that operates exactly on this concept. I've been through these hoops with NJTransit and the NYMTA. But if the short-term process of starting and applying for a spotter ID program eliminates headaches for me in the long haul, I'm all for it.

Like the wise man said, "You gotta give a little to get much, and decipher the lesser of two evils."

Off the soapbox.... :mrgreen:

[PhilDernerJr]

Another point in regards to those without cards....especially out-of-town visitors.