31L Departures tonight 1/11

[T-Bird76]

Does anyone know why tonight at JFK the 31L departures were turning right vs. the normal left hand turn over Howard Beach. I was sitting in traffic on the Belt and all the departures turned right out over the Parkway and headed southeast. Never saw that before, found it rather interesting.

[USAF Pilot 07]

Are you talking about a right turn immediately after takeoff (i.e. heading towards LGA), or still the initial left turn, but then leveling out, and not continuing the left turn back towards L.I.?

I know that most it not all of the SIDs out of JFK have transitions which lead to the southwest/south/southeast after takeoff, so maybe it wasn't anything too non-standard...

[T-Bird76]

Are you talking about a right turn immediately after takeoff (i.e. heading towards LGA), or still the initial left turn, but then leveling out, and not continuing the left turn back towards L.I.?

I know that most it not all of the SIDs out of JFK have transitions which lead to the southwest/south/southeast after takeoff, so maybe it wasn't anything too non-standard...

Clark I have no clue what you just said???????

Basically they were departing 31L and turning right just after take off heading east rather then using the Carnasie climb.

[USAF Pilot 07]

Basically they were departing 31L and turning right just after take off heading east rather then using the Carnasie climb.


Oh ok. Not sure then. Did you PASSUR it? I think they were using both 31L and 4L for departures last night. A lot of departures off of 4L make a right turn heading east right after takeoff. Maybe it was on of these planes you saw?

[T-Bird76]

[quote="T-Bird76":3tgzktt8]

Basically they were departing 31L and turning right just after take off heading east rather then using the Carnasie climb.


Oh ok. Not sure then. Did you PASSUR it? I think they were using both 31L and 4L for departures last night. A lot of departures off of 4L make a right turn heading east right after takeoff. Maybe it was on of these planes you saw?[/quote:3tgzktt8]

Nah def 31L departures turning right. I was sitting in enough traffic on the Belt to see it clearly.

[USAF Pilot 07]

[quote="USAF Pilot 07":2t2k68uf][quote="T-Bird76":2t2k68uf]

Basically they were departing 31L and turning right just after take off heading east rather then using the Carnasie climb.


Oh ok. Not sure then. Did you PASSUR it? I think they were using both 31L and 4L for departures last night. A lot of departures off of 4L make a right turn heading east right after takeoff. Maybe it was on of these planes you saw?[/quote:2t2k68uf]

Nah def 31L departures turning right. I was sitting in enough traffic on the Belt to see it clearly.[/quote:2t2k68uf]

Hmm, I'm not sure.. What time was it around? I'll take a look at it on PASSUR.

Could have been an aircraft that requested not to fly the SID and had the request approved - although if it was several aircraft seems to be more of a trend item.

[AirtrafficController]

I'm not certain Tommy but you may have mistaken 4L for 31L. Maybe you were futher down the belt then you thought? At the time frame you mentioned they were landing on runway 4R with departures from 4L and 31L KK as Clark said above.

[T-Bird76]

I'm not certain Tommy but you may have mistaken 4L for 31L. Maybe you were futher down the belt then you thought? At the time frame you mentioned they were landing on runway 4R with departures from 4L and 31L KK as Clark said above.

Def not a 4L departure.

[bluejuice]

I believe that most of the time when they depart off 31L which isnt to often,they make a right turn and head over LI.This might be as to not conflict with 31R departures that use the canarsie departure. Ive seen the freighters do this alot.

[eric8669]

I believe that most of the time when they depart off 31L which isnt to often,they make a right turn and head over LI.This might be as to not conflict with 31R departures that use the canarsie departure. Ive seen the freighters do this alot.


Why does nobody believe what Tommy saw? I am really confused as to some of the post in this thread.



Most departures go off of 3L and not 31R

[h2opunk1822]

Its a conspiracy i tell you!!! :evil:

[USAF Pilot 07]

I took a look at PASSUR for some of the time period mentioned (i.e. Sunday night). JFK was pretty busy, and was using 31L and 4L for departures (4R for arrivals).
As far as I could see, all aircraft off of 31L were flying what appeared to be groundtracks similar to published SIDs out of JFK (i.e. they were making a left turn immediately after departure heading SSW). All the aircraft off of 4L were also flying published SID groundtracks (making a right turn after departure heading 100).

The only SID that has a right turn after takeoff off of RWY31L/R is the JFK1.JFK - Idlewild Climb. It's instructions are a climbing right turn to 2000 and heading 090 remain within JFK 2.5 DME. The big caveat on this is that this climbout is only issued to non-turbojet aircraft, which at JFK are few and far between. With 4L being used for takeoff it probably would have been easier for ATC to have those guys leave 4L.

While it's entirely possible for an aircraft departing JFK not to fly a published SID, it is pretty unlikely, especially when it's a busy time for the airport, and when the majority of commercial aircraft fly published SIDs/STARs.

Most likely what you saw were 4L departures (which were making right turns Eastbound) after takeoff...

[T-Bird76]

Those were not 4 departures but were 31L departures and yes there were making right turns heading East out over Long Island. According to the FAA, it has and will be testing new patterns in and out of JFK to help ease congestion, hence why 22s have been so active this winter unlike in the past.


I believe that most of the time when they depart off 31L which isnt to often,they make a right turn and head over LI.This might be as to not conflict with 31R departures that use the canarsie departure. Ive seen the freighters do this alot.


Are you talking about 31R? 31L is used all the time for departures. 31R is hardly used for departures.

[DHG750R]

I'll keep an ear and eye out for any special climbouts the next couple of nights.
Here is a copy of part of the chart with the SID description. Kennedy.1 departure
In fact another chart shows locations of noise monitoring equipment. There is one directly along the extended centerline of all the runways except for 4R-22L


RWY INITIAL CLIMB
GATEWAY CLIMB (To be assigned during period 2200-0700 LT):
BREEZY POINT CLIMB:
31L/R CANARSIE CLIMB:
IDLEWILD CLIMB: (To be assigned by ATC to Non-turbojet aircraft):
Climbing RIGHT turn to 5000' via heading 100^.
Climb via assigned heading.
Climb heading 225^.
Intercept JFK R-232 SOUTHWEST bound until JFK 5 DME, then turn LEFT
heading 220^.
BRIDGE CLIMB: (ADF required): Climbing LEFT turn direct to OGY, then
via heading 220^. Make turn EAST of CRI R-039.
Climbing LEFT turn direct to CRI. Make turn EAST of
CRI R-039, then via CRI R-176.
Climbing RIGHT turn to 2000' via heading 090^. Remain within JFK 2.5
DME. If unable to remain within JFK 2.5 DME, advise ATC.

EAST of CRI R-039, then via CRI R-223 to RNGRR.
Climbing LEFT turn direct to CRI. Make turn
For TAKEOFF OBSTACLE NOTES See 20-3OB1

[USAF Pilot 07]

DHG750R:

I think you either may have an outdated copy of the SID, or you copy/pasted the takeoff instructions wrong (i.e. the climbing right turn to 5000 hdg 100 is not the Idlewild climb, it's the departure procedures for takeoff 4L/R - but you do have the Idlewild climb instructions listed further down).

Here is a current copy of the textual description of the SID:
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0901/00610KENNEDY_C.PDF

[bluejuice]

OK I stand corrected. As I was leaving the airport and also on the Belt at around 2PM I saw a Air China 747 depart off 4 and make the right bank.over LI. Off of 31 L Ive seen both right and left departures. Sould be interesting this spring when the port will close some rwys due to major re-construction.

[Planesntrains]

OK I stand corrected. As I was leaving the airport and also on the Belt at around 2PM I saw a Air China 747 depart off 4 and make the right bank.over LI. Off of 31 L Ive seen both right and left departures. Sould be interesting this spring when the port will close some rwys due to major re-construction.

Could it possibly have the effect of increasing volume on certain paths making for better spotting?