Trainspotting leads to Rail Disaster?

[Tom_Turner]

This is an interesting story....

http://cbs2.com/local/Metrolink.Enginee ... 17045.html (http://cbs2.com/local/Metrolink.Engineer.Text.2.817045.html)

Apparently the engineer of the passenger train sent a text message to teenage rail fans just prior to a deadly collision with a freight train.

Metrolink is now claiming the engineer ran a red signal.

The inference, all but explicitly stated, appears to be the engineer may have been sending a text message to rail fans *while* he ran the red signal, leading to the disaster.

I hope the circumstances are somewhat different than what is suggested here, but if not, its a real black eye to the hobby, albeit undeserved in the larger picture.

Tom

[Matt Molnar]

Sad if that's the case, but we'll see. The most amazing part of this to me is how quick Metrolink threw all the blame onto this guy, basically admitting they are completely liable before any detailed investigation could be done.

[Gerard]

Sad if that's the case, but we'll see. The most amazing part of this to me is how quick Metrolink threw all the blame onto this guy, basically admitting they are completely liable before any detailed investigation could be done.

Like any aviation crash is always "pilot error".

[PhilDernerJr]

I don't think the trainspotting aspect of this crash is important. The problem is just that he was texting in general. It doesn't matter to who it was.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Flowing_In_Time/textmessage.jpg

[Gerard]

>[quote="Phil D."]I don't think the trainspotting aspect of this crash is important. The problem is just that he was texting in general. It doesn't matter to who it was.<

Wasnt there a train crash in Boston recently and possibly the engineer was also txting?
A friend of my youngest son, only 17, was killed last spring up on Glen Cove Road when his car collided with a truck. Reportedly he was texting at the time.

[PhilDernerJr]

Texting is more dangerous than a phone call when driving because you are taking your eyes off the road. I like buttons I can feel so I can type without looking though.

[LGA777]

I was surprised to here on a replay of a Press conferance that a Metrolink spokesperson said the Engineer was not an employee but a contractor who worked for another company. Unless that other company was the railroad, (I assume Union Pacific) Who's track Metrolink was operating on then I have serious concerns about this. I have lot of friends who are with the LIRR and a few at Metronorth and I know they would never contract out a job that important. The training the above mentioned local Railroads requires to become an Engineer, Conductor, and Block Operator for example rival's and reminds me the training to be an airline pilot or FAA controller. I just could not imagine contracting that poistion out. I have also read reports the train crew was 2 people. I would think there would be 2 in the cab of the Diesel locomotive and at least 2 conductors in the three bi-level coaches. The eight car Metronorth trains I ride a few days a week usually have 3 or 4 conductors plus one engineer, as these don't have an actual locomotive. A crew of only two seems like cutting corners big time.

As this was the second fatal accident in only a few years at Metrolink I would not be surprised when the dust settles as there are not required changes in their procedures.

RIP to those lost in this tragedy.

LGA777

[LGA777]

Did a little more reseach, this is the actualy huge French company Metrolink's train crews work for

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veolia_Transportation

And the two previous fatal accidents killed two in 2002 with 22 injuries, also a head on with a freight train and a very serious one in Jan 2005 killing 11 and injuring over 100.

By comparison I cannot recall or find record of accidents in the last 10-20 years on either Metronorth or the LIRR, but If I am wrong please correct me?

LGA777

[Matt Molnar]

I was surprised to here on a replay of a Press conferance that a Metrolink spokesperson said the Engineer was not an employee but a contractor who worked for another company. Unless that other company was the railroad, (I assume Union Pacific) Who's track Metrolink was operating on then I have serious concerns about this. I have lot of friends who are with the LIRR and a few at Metronorth and I know they would never contract out a job that important. The training the above mentioned local Railroads requires to become an Engineer, Conductor, and Block Operator for example rival's and reminds me the training to be an airline pilot or FAA controller. I just could not imagine contracting that poistion out.
It is similar to being a pilot in that you do need a Federal license to operate a train anywhere in the National Rail Network, so I'm not sure training really comes into play here even if he was a subcontractor. After all, all of the nation's freight trains are run by private companies big and small. Unfortunately training and experience do not teach common sense, as we saw with the Staten Island Ferry wreck



As this was the second fatal accident in only a few years at Metrolink I would not be surprised when the dust settles as there are not required changes in their procedures.
The last one was because of that psychopath who parked his truck on the tracks to kill himself and then changed his mind without moving the truck. He was actually sentenced to 11 consecutive life terms just a couple of weeks ago.

[mirrodie]

Sad if that's the case, but we'll see. The most amazing part of this to me is how quick Metrolink threw all the blame onto this guy, basically admitting they are completely liable before any detailed investigation could be done.

Just as amazing is how quickly the train spotting buddies all threw this engineer onto the tracks, pun intended, saying he texted them and yet saying he's not at fault.


A terrible event.

[Planesntrains]

A railfanning topic! Something I can get into. Basically in the trackside community we're griping on two completely different soapboxes.

Number one...the kids are freaking morons. It was in fact the teenage railfans who went to the press about the engineer's activity at the time of the incident. It's bad enough they threw him under the train, somewhat literally, but what makes it worse is the guy died in it all. They basically bought tickets to you know what on the poor guy's grave before he was even buried. What are friends for...right? :roll:

However, secondly...the engineer was indeed at fault. The Federal Railroad Administration has made it clear, the signal system was working properly, as were the trainline (air brakes), emergency systems, and radio. It was simply human error. He was distracted, failed to see a stop signal, and caused a disaster. In railroading...there is no higher cardinal sin.

Long story short, the kids need to keep their mouths shut, and the crew their eyes on the rails.

Oh, and yes. Metrolink crews do not work for Metrolink or the host railroads. They work for Bombardier Rail Services. GO Transit in Toronto recently began the same. They've been nothing but problems all around.

[PhilDernerJr]

On the NYC subways, if a train goes through the red signal, the brakes automatically lock. And I mean LOCK. What are the emergency functions on the other trains?

[flyboy 28]

On the NYC subways, if a train goes through the red signal, the brakes automatically lock. And I mean LOCK. What are the emergency functions on the other trains?

I saw on the news this morning that the Acela trains have this feature. To put it on most commuter trains, it would cost something like $50 billion. So they said the cost outweighed the benefit.

[PhilDernerJr]

Isn't that cost split up among the many many train companies that are out there?

$50 billion is definitely more important than saving lives and preventing what seems like regular light-running anyway, right?

[Matt Molnar]

[quote="Phil D.":qrgxfo4p]On the NYC subways, if a train goes through the red signal, the brakes automatically lock. And I mean LOCK. What are the emergency functions on the other trains?

I saw on the news this morning that the Acela trains have this feature. To put it on most commuter trains, it would cost something like $50 billion. So they said the cost outweighed the benefit.[/quote:qrgxfo4p]
Yep, most commuter and long-distance trains, including LIRR and MNRR, have nothing.

[Matt Molnar]

Isn't that cost split up among the many many train companies that are out there?

$50 billion is definitely more important than saving lives and preventing what seems like regular light-running anyway, right?
I'd rather see them spend $50 billion on new rail lines and added service...making trains an attractive alternative to driving would save many more lives I think.

[Planesntrains]

On the NYC subways, if a train goes through the red signal, the brakes automatically lock. And I mean LOCK. What are the emergency functions on the other trains?

The others include an alerter that requires the engineer to acknowledge that he is awake, "alert", and alive every 110 seconds. Unfortunately, the line in question does not employ cab signals, would immediately dump the train into emergency if he failed to react properly.

[mirrodie]

Yep, most commuter and long-distance trains, including LIRR and MNRR, have nothing.

matt, are you positive? I mean its been 10 years since I worked on the LIRR but I recall those trains, both diesel and electric, having auto brakes that were triggered in certain situations. Missing signals was one of those I thought was included.

[Planesntrains]

Yep, most commuter and long-distance trains, including LIRR and MNRR, have nothing.

matt, are you positive? I mean its been 10 years since I worked on the LIRR but I recall those trains, both diesel and electric, having auto brakes that were triggered in certain situations. Missing signals was one of those I thought was included.

MNCW and LI both run cab signals, which puts the train into an emergency application if the engineer fails to acknowledge a signal, or fails to react properly.

[Matt Molnar]

My mistake, was not aware of that.

[Matt Molnar]

LA Times did a profile of the engineer today, sounds like kind of a troubled guy, sad story. No definitive insight on the cause, though there's mention that he may have been involved in a fatal pedestrian accident earlier this month.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 7629.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-engineer17-2008sep17,0,6177629.story)

[stuart schechter]

The New M7 trains and older AMD-103 engines on the MNRR and LIRR lines have something called an ATC(Automatic Train Control) that do what Planesntrains said. If the train runs a red, or is not acknowledged or it overspeeds, the penalty brake will automatically apply.

[Smartass Flyboy]

[quote="Phil D.":13iom4s2]On the NYC subways, if a train goes through the red signal, the brakes automatically lock. And I mean LOCK. What are the emergency functions on the other trains?

I saw on the news this morning that the Acela trains have this feature. To put it on most commuter trains, it would cost something like $50 billion. So they said the cost outweighed the benefit.
Yep, most commuter and long-distance trains, including LIRR and MNRR, have nothing.[/quote:13iom4s2]

Finally something I can speak intelligently about. I have several friends who are on the UP as conductors and engineers as well as having completed their conductor training myself before I realized I much preferred to stay with fast shiny things as opposed to slow greasy things. :lol: Anyway, the issues with the automatic braking system is that first UP would need to implement it as the tracks are theirs and second all who have trackage rights would need to have their rolling stock equipped for it. In that region alone this could include Amtrak, Metrolink, and BNSF. If UP went system wide for this you could now be including METRA, which UP actually operates with their own crews, CN, CP, the various Pro Rail subsidiaries, CSX, and many others. Now this line appears to have been CTC, but remember the current UP is much like the current US Airways, it is a product of many, many acquisitions over the years. Just the ones I can recall are CNW, SP, and Rio Grande. The result is much of their track is dark territory and not CTC. IN the old CNW area alone many of the mains are single track track warrant territory. These are the reasons the 50 billion dollar number comes up so often. In the end though while this accident was indeed tragic, it was a very low probability accident. In fact there are far more incidents with RCO operations than there are with blown signals. In fact the overwhelming majority of blown signals are only by a few feet and self reported to the dispatcher. Sadly it does appear (so far) that the inattention of the engineer (whether due texting or not is immaterial) and the lack of a 2 man cab crew to both watch for signals are what caused this, not the lack of automatic braking. On the UP the conductor is supposed to call out all non clear signals and the engineer repeats so there is communication that both saw the signal and the engineer is responding. In fact GCOR specifically gives the conductor the authority to dump the air if the engineer does not respond to a signal to prevent the train from blowing the signal. I myself actually had to do this once right after training as I had an engineer that decided to answer his cell phone and was about to blow a stop board approaching a bridge.

[Matt Molnar]

A train operator at the helm during a deadly collision in California last month sent 29 text messages while on the job that day -- including one just 22 seconds before the crash, the National Transportation Safety Board announced Wednesday.
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/Aheadofthe ... id=5930052 (http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/AheadoftheCurve/story?id=5930052)

[PHL Approach]

Too bad I didn't see this earlier to post when the event was fresh. This incident hits close to home for me because I have a friend who's an engineer for CSX and we text and talk on the phone while he's running sometimes. Of course some friend's tried to get me to stop feeling guilty about what I do by saying he's grown and it's his decision to text and make calls.

About CTC, most lines in the northeast that all operate under NORAC signal rules usually have CTC in place. A few SEPTA branches don't have it but after the collision we had on the R2 in July 2006 they've stepped up the Cab Signaling of the rest of the branches that lack it. The NORAC tests in place that engineers operating in the northeast have to take are extremely stringent and at least I know the NORAC and Qualifying tests for all engineers operating on the Northeast Corridor all require a 100% passing grade. There is no huge rush to Cab signal lines that are not electrified - especially in the west. Of course in the northeast Passenger lines that intermingle with freight eventually got Cab signaling like the RF&P down south of DC. Of course I'm rambling here but we sure don't have to worry about this happening in the NE because of the safety measures put in place due the fact of the shear number of people the lines carry.

As for those kids throwing the deceased engineer under. There won't be a week in their life that will go by without them thinking about how they technically caused it and they'll live with that forever.