Sharpton vows to 'close this city' after officer acquittals

[Matt Molnar]

The Associated Press:

Sharpton vows to 'close this city' after officer acquittals (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080426/D909P8SG0.html)

Apr 26, 4:42 PM (ET)

By VERENA DOBNIK

NEW YORK (AP) - Hundreds of angry people marched through Harlem on Saturday after the Rev. Al Sharpton promised to "close this city down" to protest the acquittals of three police detectives in the 50-shot barrage that killed a groom on his wedding day and wounded two friends.

"We strategically know how to stop the city so people stand still and realize that you do not have the right to shoot down unarmed, innocent civilians," Sharpton told an overflow crowd of several hundred people at his National Action Network office in the historically black Manhattan neighborhood. "This city is going to deal with the blood of Sean Bell." [Full Article (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080426/D909P8SG0.html)]

[PhilDernerJr]

*yawn*

Not that I agree that these police should go unpunished, but relax, Al.

[T-Bird76]

Who is Sharpton protesting against and why punish the ppl of NYC? While we can disagree or agree with the verdict the one thing we can all agree upon is that Officers was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. This is the how the justice system works and the decisions of court must be respected.

[PhilDernerJr]

Actually, it wasn't by jury. The judge decided this case.

[T-Bird76]

Actually, it wasn't by jury. The judge decided this case.

Why was that? Can I guess the defendants choose to forgo a jury trial? I wasn't aware of that. Even still the judges decision falls within the limits of the law and should be respected as such. I bet if this was jury trial they would have been found guilty. Be one for the law schools to study for the future.

[moose135]

Why was that? Can I guess the defendants choose to forgo a jury trial? I wasn't aware of that. Even still the judges decision falls within the limits of the law and should be respected as such. I bet if this was jury trial they would have been found guilty. Be one for the law schools to study for the future.

Yes, the defendants can choose to waive a jury and have a judge hear the case, which is what happened here. I don't know if a jury would have found them guilty, but when I heard they chose to go this route, I suspected their chances of acquittal went up.

[bonanzabucks]

And if Sharpton really wants to get his message across, encouraging disrupting behavior is the worst way to do it. He wants people to have sympathy for his cause, well, he's going to get a lot of people even more pissed off if he "closes this city". Fewer people are going to have sympathy for the black community and he's going to set his aims and goals back by years. Remember the Rodney King riots. Did that really do anything to help the civil rights cause? Not really. Maybe Sharpton can take a lesson from that, but being the fat gasbag that he is, I doubt it.

[Matt Molnar]

[quote="Phil D.":df5fa]Actually, it wasn't by jury. The judge decided this case.

Why was that? Can I guess the defendants choose to forgo a jury trial?[/quote:df5fa]
Correct.

Al likes to stage grand marches across the Brooklyn Bridge, at best he might gather enough people to jam that up for a little while. No way he'll be able to cause any significant disruption. This isn't as disturbing a case as the Amadou Diallo shooting or the Abner Louima assault. People have more important things to worry about like paying their bills. The DA was under pressure to indict and he did without really having a strong case to do so. The judge cited the weakness of the prosecution witnesses in his decision.

[wunaladreamin]

Look, race aside, if you try to run a cop over with your car...twice...you're probably going to get shot. Bottom line. A cop's number one priority is to ensure he/she goes home safe at end of tour. I can almost guarantee that if the perps (yes they are perps, they have rap sheets 3 pages long and the surviving perps have both been collared twice since the shooting for assault, narcotics, and criminal possession of firearms) were white, the outcome would have been the same without the Sharpton rabblerousing. Yes, it was tragic but, keep in mind too the only cop the media likes is a dead one. Also keep in mind the Commissioner Ray Kelly is a ball-less empty suit using his position to further his political career. God Damn I miss Bratton. That whole "take 3 shots and assess the situation" jargon is a load of bull****. Those words were never sopken in any academy I've ever attended. Remember who we're dealing with here folks before you draw your conclusions. These three cops only won a battle. They're still looking at federal and departmental action, as well as a civil suit from the Bell family. But for now, give them their retro pay and a desk. Friday justice was served.

[bonanzabucks]

Look, race aside, if you try to run a cop over with your car...twice...you're probably going to get shot. Bottom line. A cop's number one priority is to ensure he/she goes home safe at end of tour. I can almost guarantee that if the perps (yes they are perps, they have rap sheets 3 pages long and the surviving perps have both been collared twice since the shooting for assault, narcotics, and criminal possession of firearms) were white, the outcome would have been the same without the Sharpton rabblerousing. Yes, it was tragic but, keep in mind too the only cop the media likes is a dead one. Also keep in mind the Commissioner Ray Kelly is a ball-less empty suit using his position to further his political career. God Damn I miss Bratton. That whole "take 3 shots and assess the situation" jargon is a load of bull****. Those words were never sopken in any academy I've ever attended. Remember who we're dealing with here folks before you draw your conclusions. These three cops only won a battle. They're still looking at federal and departmental action, as well as a civil suit from the Bell family. But for now, give them their retro pay and a desk. Friday justice was served.

Don't forget that some of the cops who shot were black too. Sharpton doesn't bring this up.

[PhilDernerJr]

My only problem is the one officer that fired 31 times. Everything I've read about what happened and the timeline does not give ANY real excuse for this guy to have emptied, reloaded and emptied again. It makes no sense and was completely careless. I do feel that this officer (Oliver) should have received jail time. But him being paired up with two other officers in the trail, who happened to be black, having the judge decide the case, it was clear nothing would happen to him.

[wunaladreamin]

Don't forget that some of the cops who shot were black too. Sharpton doesn't bring this up.
Sharpton doesn't hate you if you're black or white (though I am positive he cares for neither), he only hates you if you're blue. I can't wait till he expires.

[wunaladreamin]

My only problem is the one officer that fired 31 times. Everything I've read about what happened and the timeline does not give ANY real excuse for this guy to have emptied, reloaded and emptied again. It makes no sense and was completely careless. I do feel that this officer (Oliver) should have received jail time. But him being paired up with two other officers in the trail, who happened to be black, having the judge decide the case, it was clear nothing would happen to him.
Phil, doing anything less than emptying your clip does not show the absolute need to preserve your own life. They tell you that in any firearms class. That said, what would you do? You're in an alley with subjects you suspect are carrying, who have already attempted to hit your partner with their car, and gunfire rings out. You can't call a time out here. And all of the training you go through cannot prepare you for a real time gunfight especially when nobody turns out from roll call looking to light someone up. I can honestly say I don't know if I would have done what he did any differently. Neither can you. We've never been in that situation and I hope that situation never finds me. But if it does and it comes down to my life or his...it's going to be his.

[PhilDernerJr]

I would have fired. I think the officers WERE justified in firing.

However, in terms of timeline, there's no way that I can play it out in my head in a way that would imply that all the "action" was over, even by the time Oliver reloaded. Sure you can unload fast, but the action happens quickly and is over just as fast. How was he firing for that long? It doesn't make sense to me at all.

The car races, guns start firing, the officers who fired a few shots, or even up to 11.....the action is over within 5 seconds, 8 tops. Car is stopped, maybe rolling in an nonthreatening manner, the officers....guns drawn would be still aiming and assessing. Yet with Oliver, he's still firing. The act of emptying a gun, reloading, and emptying again (and wasn't he in a seated position no less?) would take at least 15 seconds in the high-adrenaline state. The car was not coming at him personally, so he did not face any initial threat. What could have been going on for that long that justified his shooting? It sounds to me like he lost his mind, which is understandable, but he should still be held accountable.

[wunaladreamin]

What I'm trying to get at is you're not going to take a second to see who is firing. You're going to keep pulling that trigger until you hear other shots stop. If you let up for a second to see what's going on, it could be you that takes a hit. Even in a seated position it takes only a split second to reload a clip. You release the spent cart with one hand whilst grabbing a full cart mounted to your belt at your abdomen with the other. Tactics. Was it excessive? Possibly, but in that situation what would any of us do? Was it justified and legal? Absolutely. Firing 3 shots and killing a perp is not self preservation. It's murder. It shows your life was not in imminent danger AND you had time to aim. As bad as it sounds, the more shots you fire in a situation like that, the cleaner the shoot really winds up being solely because of the haste displayed.

[emshighway]

I agree with wunaladreamin posts. You don't yell cease fire hoping the perps will stop firing also. Shots are being fired and you react.

If you remember the Bronx case. What happen there was the suspect was told to stop, he turned with an item in his hand (wallet, holding it between his thump and finger that in could have looked like a gun) in a dark hallway, one of the officers trying to step back tripped off the stoop. His fellow officers thinking he was shot opened fire. Due to the small area the suspect didn't fall right to the ground so the officers didn't know if the shots were all theirs or the suspects.

In these seconds there is a terror and a fight or flight reaction. As long as there is movement you are going to fight.

In my years with EMS, I was shot at or within a shooting about five times. As Phil said it happens in seconds, you do what you have to do.

If anyone thinks these officers whether white or black, planned to go out and get into a shooting and turn the next several years of their lives in a nightmare then you are out of your mind.

This was supposed to be a simple prostitution sting which because of the actions of the perps went bad.

[PhilDernerJr]

You're going to keep pulling that trigger until you hear other shots stop.

That is my point. The facts, as I understand them, imply that by the time Oliver was on his second magazine, all other shooting had stopped and he was the only one firing. At what and why, I don't get. Fog of war, but he should still be held accountable for it, I think. And I always side with the police.

[emshighway]

Something funny (and I guess sad) happen yesterday. I was in Barnes and Nobles on Austin St waiting for my wife on the second floor. There was an IAB Det. doing a detail shift so I gave him a hello nod. Just at that time a male African American turned the corner making a comment "why they got to go play that song". At first I looked at him weirdly then realized the Muzak was playing "I fought the law and the law won". I tried not to but I busted out laughing in his face.

[wunaladreamin]

LOL iffin he wasn't a perp, the music wouldn't bother him.

[Smartass Flyboy]

Clearly my opinion is going to prove rather unpopular in this thread, but principle dictates I speak up and take the heat. There is/was no excuse for this going down the way it did. Leave the race out of it. Race is just a straw man argument had the 3 guys been white I believe the same scene would have played out. We had 3 trigger happy cops who, as Phil already pointed out, fired, emptied, reloaded and fired again, at 3 UNARMED people. At the end of the day this is the only fact that counts. Not one weapon was drawn except by the trigger happy cops. Not one weapon was found that wasn't issued by the NYPD. Bottom line is simple, if there was no weapon out then keep your DAMN gun in the holster. As an experienced competative shooter who has had to use a firearm to defend life and home I can tell you quite emphatically that my gun stays well secured unless 2 things happen. The first, and most important, is that I am taking it out to use it, not to frighten, not to threaten, and not to impress, but to use it to defend my life. The second is that I am faced with a threat of immenent life threatening harm. In other words I see a weapon brandished, not I think someone has one, not I think I am being threatened, I see, physically see a weapon that is capable of taking my life. Unless BOTH of those criteria are satisfied my guns stay well secured, be that in my holster or in my gun safe at home. If with my roughly 25 years of firearms experience I can say only 1 time did I face both of these criteria being met and still I never emptied a clip, replaced it, and emptied it again how does a cop with 1/2 that experience justify his actions one cold November night? At the end of the day this is not a race issue, this is simply another example of a NY cop with a God complex thinking his life is more important than any one elses.


A cop's number one priority is to ensure he/she goes home safe at end of tour.

Actually no, a cops number 1 priority is supposed to be that the citizens he/she is sworn to protect get home safe. Remember the "thin bue line"?

[wunaladreamin]

Spoken beautifully by someone who knows nothing about law enforcement. Carrying a gun as a civilian in NYC still makes you a civilian, and in most cases a perp. Carrying a gun in NYC as a cop makes you a target. We've been called to jobs at buildings only to find out the job was a hoax to draw us out so some savages can throw toilets, bricks, cans of paint, etc. off the rooftops at us. Every car-stop could be our last.
3 UNARMED PEOPLE
if there is no weapon then keep your DAMN gun in your holsterThey struck an officer with their car (an act of deadly force and a felony). The MOS had every right to take their DAMN guns out of their holster. The mope's car became a weapon. What would you have done, let them run you down? "Well they didn't shoot, so I let them run my partner down." Get off it guy. Nobody turns out from roll call with the mindset "Hey I'm gonna shoot me a mother****er." Keep in mind when you fired your piece, you were alone with a perp. ALONE. There were no other shots ringing out. There were no partners to look out for. Please stop drinking the Sharpton kool-aid.


Actually no, a cops number 1 priority is supposed to be that the citizens he/she is sworn to protect get home safe. Remember the "thin bue line"?

Incorrect. Especially in NYC where every move you make as an MOS is wrong. The job is just a pension, nothing more. Put on a uniform, work a few foot posts, and then tell me about police work.

[PhilDernerJr]

I agree with wunala there. I think the shooting was justified, but I think the Oliver went a bit nuts.

Many, or most, people have the wrong perception of police, and don't understand what it's like to be a cop for $25k.

[emshighway]

Again, golf clap to wunaladreamin. The vehicle became the weapon. The person reaching under the seat became the danger.

The "don't shoot until shot at" theory gets you killed. Was it perceived that Oliver went overboard by reloading? Yes, but unless you are in that situation can you honestly say you wouldn't do the same?

[wunaladreamin]

From another forum, an open letter to the media regarding the case. Spot on I say.

To Whom This May Concern,
Your coverage of the Sean Bell incident from beginning to end has been absolutely horrible, irresponsible and criminal. Not only have you chosen to selectively cover bits and pieces in the case, but you have also fanned the flames of racial tensions that are undeniably alive in the City, partially created by your irresponsible and sensational reporting.
Sean Bell and his friends were not saints as you make them out to be. They were the scourge of the City. Responsible for countless deaths, violence, and needless addictions against their own people. Their night on the town was not an innocent get together of friends to reminisce on the old times before he made his final commitment to his long time girlfriend. This particular night out was a continuation of his past nights out of fights, drug use, and talk of gunplay. You conveniently forget to mention the past convictions of gun possession, controlled substance sales and the fact that Trent Benefield couldn't even stay out of trouble after this incident, beating his pregnant girlfriend bloody last year.
On the other hand, you choose to make villains out of 3 men who have sworn to protect the City and did so without incident or loss to life until that fateful night. You choose to ignore the fact that none of the Cops involved in the shooting were white, including Det. Oliver who is of Lebanese decent, creating innuendo's that because his appearance is white, he's is so in fact white and that racism was in play.
Sean Bell was not unarmed that night. He was armed and he used his weapon of choice, a 3200lb Nissan Altima that he struck down a Police Officer with and hit an unmarked Police Van twice. This criminal was not a stranger to the criminal justice system and I have no doubt in my mind that he had his gut feeling that they were Cops that he was about to run over, just as we had a gut feeling that he was up to no good.
This was not a tragedy. You can sugarcoat this all you want, but Sean Bells lifestyle, his choices in life, and his choices that night sealed his fate. This is not a tragedy nor is this a unique story. If you choose to live a life of crime, most likely you will die a violent death. The only tragedy here is what 3 detectives had to go through for politcal reaons and yet another african american child is without a father due to his choices in life. This is the true tragedy.

As far as the prosecution is concerned, you can try and blame them all you want. The prosecution was poor because there was no case to begin with. You had 3 men politically indicted without regard of the Penal Law in which they clearly did not violate. You had witnesses on the stand that changed their story 3, 4 , and 5 times. You had witness that told stories that contained physical impossibilities. You had witnesses that would do anything it takes to take a cop down with them. You had witnesses that had been paid off by Al Sharpton or given back door deals on pending cases by the DA's office to "cooperate" and testify. You also had witnesses on the stand that got testy and showed their propensity for violent outbursts, even in protected environment such as a Court Room. No, the Judge did not have a hard time reflecting on this case and coming down with a verdict. That's because there was no case.
So if I can build a time machine and tell my brothers what will happen if they decide to take focus of their case and try to save a possible homicide from happening in front of their eyes, what would the headlines say the next day? I'll tell you:
"Past criminal kills family of 4 in drunken accident after Cops ignore man going to his car in a drunken stuper, focusing on sting operation instead"
or
"Cops sitting inside club, doing sting operation, ignore talk of gunplay as violence erupts outside , 3 dead, 1 wounded....Where were the Police?"
Either way in the eyes of the media, we cannot win. Maybe you should look in the mirror and you will see part of the recruitment and retention problem the NYPD has. Next time you are the victim of a crime, why don't you call Guzman or Benefield for help because according to you, they are the Heros and we are the Villains.

[Smartass Flyboy]

Spoken beautifully by someone who knows nothing about law enforcement.
I think that might be a bit of a strech, but I'll concede I've never worn a badge.


and in most cases a perp.
Are you a cop? I ask not to spark an argument, but rather to point out something in that last sentance. It appears frm where I sit that is exactly the mentality I see all too often from cops. To be fair this is not limited to the NYPD.


Please stop drinking the Sharpton kool-aid.
Not a roblem, personally I think Sharpton is f**king nuts and have thought so for over 20 years. The man is so far off the deep end that rational discourse is completely impossible with him. This incident being a perfect example. It's obvious I agree with him that the officers actions are/were unjustifiable yet because he wants to see racism he will blow this whole thing into another Rodney King. Even if you defend the officers actions and feel I am being unfair in my judgement of them I hope you'll agree with me that race was NOT a factor that night.


Incorrect. Especially in NYC where every move you make as an MOS is wrong. The job is just a pension, nothing more. Put on a uniform, work a few foot posts, and then tell me about police work.
As I said I have never worn a badge, but suffice it to say I have been close enough to law enforcement to be aware of what the job entails as well having experienced it's, um, excesses. I have family both retired and on the job, outside of NYC though. Keep in mind also that those of us that have been fire fighters dealt very closely with the PD.

[wunaladreamin]

I agree with you in the fact that the events of that night had nothing to do with race, and I stand by my comment that most people in the confines of NYC are carrying illegally. I was not incinuating that included you, but you cannot deny that probability. Just take a stroll down the streets in any odd numbered command starting with the number 7. I will also defend till I'm blue in the face the actions of the three MOS that night. Ask any one of your family members OTJ or retired if they think a motor vehicle was used as a potentially deadly weapon that night, and ask them what they might have done. You already know my answer. Fact of the matter is the only cop the media, and a good portion of the city likes is a dead one. You'll crucify us when we act, and you'll crucify us when we don't, yet you'll love us when it's PBA card time of year. A little consistency would be nice. Until then, I guess we'll just agree to disagree and still have a smile over a beer. Stay safe.

[Smartass Flyboy]

Until then, I guess we'll just agree to disagree and still have a smile over a beer. Stay safe.

MMMMM, Beeer. 8)

http://kikeleash.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/homer_simpson_beer.jpg


http://cafeultravioleta.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/beer-posters.jpg

So who buys first round.

[wunaladreamin]

So who buys first round.
Well, you already know my pay scale so...LOL

[wunaladreamin]

So rumor has it the Fatman and his minions are preparing to storm the castle that is 1PP. The Palace Guard is currently at Defcon 4 and has doubled the troops guarding the gates. All uniformed personnel have been ordered to be at the ready and have full battle regalia in place and ready to go. The onslaught may take place as early as this evening. Hats and bats folks.

[RDU-JFK]

So rumor has it the Fatman and his minions are preparing to storm the castle that is 1PP. The Palace Guard is currently at Defcon 4 and has doubled the troops guarding the gates. All uniformed personnel have been ordered to be at the ready and have full battle regalia in place and ready to go. The onslaught may take place as early as this evening. Hats and bats folks.

And he claims to be a "minister"... :roll:

I don't get it.

[wunaladreamin]

And he claims to be a "minister"... :roll:

I don't get it.
Tax exemptions my friend.

Typical and Disturbing.