Question about JFK runway use??

[Delta777LR]

Why is it when JFK uses Runway 31R for landings and Runway 31L for take offs and landings,, Why is it that they always switch to either runways 22s or 4s every early evenings??

[Lezam]

In addition, why are the 4's used alot in the early mornings?

[PhilDernerJr]

Just my own guess, but I think the morning is when there are red-eye arrivals from the west, and rwy 4 saves fuel on that "right-in" approach.

Same with 22 arrivals with the afternoon rush of international arrivals from over the Atlantic.

[lijk604]

Not to mention, the 4 arrivals are probably the most noise-friendly of all the configs, thereby not waking folks up at 4am with a 31R/L or 22L approach. Now if winds dictate sure they'll land 31L @ 3am, but if they dont have to, the aiport wants to be a good neighbor and keeps the noise over the ocean.

[Lezam]

Not to mention, the 4 arrivals are probably the most noise-friendly of all the configs, thereby not waking folks up at 4am with a 31R/L or 22L approach. Now if winds dictate sure they'll land 31L @ 3am, but if they dont have to, the aiport wants to be a good neighbor and keeps the noise over the ocean.

Never thought of that, good point. Ive never gotten woken up by all the heavies even though theyre only a few thousand feet away. :?

[Delta777LR]

I always thought that as taking pictures of 31L departures, There is not alot of chances to catch airlines like Air China, Air India or even some european take offs because the airport switches runways at a curtain time and for me, since I take public transportation, I have a hard time getting to areas near runways 22 and 4 to catch those planes in time espeacial that im not aware of when runway operations are switched...

[kc2aqg]

"Ooh ooh pick me Mr. Kotter, pick me!!!"

I know the answer to this one and found this out way back when JFKTower was a happening board. Back in the 90's and early 2000's, in addition to the regular flight path noise abatement plans (immediate left turn off of 31L, special immediate turn departures off of 31R, VOR 13L approach instead of straight-in), flight paths were also partially controlled by time. Back when traffic was pretty light at JFK, especially during the off hours, JFK used to start the day on the 4's or 22's. Towards the early afternoon when traffic was picking up for the internationals, they would switch to 13/31's and stay on that until the evening. When evening would come, they would switch back to 4/22's. This would vary the traffic flow over the various neighborhoods.

NOTE: This is not an exact description and I'm sure this plan wasn't always followed, but you get the idea. I am thinking that this plan isn't still in effect since the major boom of traffic at JFK, but perhaps a variation of it is still in use.

[moose135]

One of the major reasons they switch to 22L/R in the late afternoon/evening is the amount of departures - for various reasons, when on 13 or 31, they only use one runway for departures. When the evening rush starts up, they often switch to 22, and send departures off both Left and Right. When we had those strong NW winds for several days a few weeks ago, they couldn't make the changeover. Listening to the scanner while spotting, tower mentioned frequently that they were restricted to one-runway ops for departures, and asked everyone to be ready to go when called.

[Delta777LR]

One of the major reasons they switch to 22L/R in the late afternoon/evening is the amount of departures - for various reasons, when on 13 or 31, they only use one runway for departures. When the evening rush starts up, they often switch to 22, and send departures off both Left and Right. When we had those strong NW winds for several days a few weeks ago, they couldn't make the changeover. Listening to the scanner while spotting, tower mentioned frequently that they were restricted to one-runway ops for departures, and asked everyone to be ready to go when called.

How can I get a scanner to listen for the tower if I wanted one Moose... What you are saying is very true but I dont think I have any access of getting one

[PhilDernerJr]

Radio Shack. $100.

[Delta777LR]

what would the chanell be for the tower Phil, im going to take this down

[adam613]

119.1

You can also listen online:

http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kjfk_twr.m3u

Prepare to get addicted...

[pgengler]

123.9 is the other frequency sometimes used for tower; if they're using both freqs it'll usually be one for each runway. It's also worth getting the frequencies for Approach and Final (I have them in my scanner, but have no idea which of the dozen or so "NY Approach" freqs are the right ones) so that you can get a little more heads up on what's going on. When they change runways, they'll have a few established for one config when they start vectoring for the new one, so if you're listening you get a couple of minutes notice, though not enough to get from one spot to another, even with a car.

[kc2aqg]

FYI as far as airport info and relevant frequencies go: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KJFK

Airnav is a great resource for any airport or navaid info. Also, that liveATC feed is extremely addictive!

[Delta777LR]

Thanks for the help guys... Im going to try to save up for a scanner... because right now my SLR should be delivered to me very soon and with the scanner to use, ill will resume taking pictures again..

[HPNPilot1200]

123.9 is the other frequency sometimes used for tower; if they're using both freqs it'll usually be one for each runway. It's also worth getting the frequencies for Approach and Final (I have them in my scanner, but have no idea which of the dozen or so "NY Approach" freqs are the right ones) so that you can get a little more heads up on what's going on. When they change runways, they'll have a few established for one config when they start vectoring for the new one, so if you're listening you get a couple of minutes notice, though not enough to get from one spot to another, even with a car.

JFK Tower: 119.10 (Runways 4R/22L 13L/31R)
JFK Tower: 123.90 (Runways 4L/22R 13R/31L)
JFK Tower (TCA): 125.25
JFK Ground: 121.90
JFK Ground: 121.65 (not charted)
JFK Clearance Delivery: 135.05
JFK ATIS: 128.725

Here are the frequencies for the 5 sectors in the JFK area of NY TRACON:
Departure: 135.90
ROBER: 125.70
Final Vector: 132.40
CAMRN: 127.40
ROBER Satellite: 118.40

134.45 is also an operational frequency, occasionally used for the satellites.

Noise abatement is a major factor in determining runway configurations. Clearly noise abatement plans do not trump weather conditions (winds and cigs), but do play a big role in configuration.

[flyguy1]

I know that JFK is now capped at 81 flights per hour. Does anyone know what it used to be? (before 2006) In the past, ATC would never use 2 runways for departure in late am, and late afternoon/early evening. Supposedly this is done, since JFK is busier than ever before.
IIRC, last year there was an article in the NY Times about this practice. Apparently, the controllers filed a complaint with the FAA, as they felt using 3 runways at the same time was a safety hazard. This policy varies though, as winds, weather mean they cannot do it all the time. Today for example, they switched from 13/22, to 4, departing 31L. This seemed unusual, as the winds were 120@10kts. Sure enough, 45 minutes later they went back at 13L/R. In a case like this, I can see were the controllers have a point, as some departures had a tail wind, off 31L.

[HPNPilot1200]

I know that JFK is now capped at 81 flights per hour. Does anyone know what it used to be? (before 2006) In the past, ATC would never use 2 runways for departure in late am, and late afternoon/early evening. Supposedly this is done, since JFK is busier than ever before.
IIRC, last year there was an article in the NY Times about this practice. Apparently, the controllers filed a complaint with the FAA, as they felt using 3 runways at the same time was a safety hazard. This policy varies though, as winds, weather mean they cannot do it all the time. Today for example, they switched from 13/22, to 4, departing 31L. This seemed unusual, as the winds were 120@10kts. Sure enough, 45 minutes later they went back at 13L/R. In a case like this, I can see were the controllers have a point, as some departures had a tail wind, off 31L.

Are you referencing the 81 figure as arrivals, or both arrivals and departures? The highest AAR (arrival acceptance rate) is 68, on the land 13L/22L depart 13R configuration when conducting visual approaches. You can get a table of the AAR values (http://www.fly.faa.gov/Information/east/zny/jfk/jfk_aar1.htm) for JFK here.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I wouldn't expect a large fluctuation in value between the 2003/2004/2005 numbers and current numbers.

[bonanzabucks]

JFK flights are now capped at 83. Newarks' are the same. I heard the previous cap was in the mid-80's. Also, I notice on the flightaware website that JFK's aircraft movement numbers are often quite a bit over 90 -- sometimes as high as 105 -- during peak hours. I've seen this the last month after the caps were put into effect. Last summer, I think I only saw the movements hit 100 about once or twice. Explain that one?

Also, just curious, but what's LGA capped at? I've heard either 80 or 75.

And I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but the FAA started a new procedure for the mornings and evenings when there are more departures, where JFK uses two runways for departures and one or two for landings. It's been in place for about a year and a half when traffic exploded. They'll use the 22's or 4's for landings, 4L and 22R for take-offs and 31L, intersected at KK for Southwest (especially California) departures. In the mornings, this usually starts around 8 and lasts until about 10-11. In the evening, this starts at 5:30 or 6 and lasts until about 9.

Before, JFK used to use 13R and 13L for departures (I saw a lot, actually) from 6PM-7PM when arrival traffic was lower. I've seen them use both 13's for departures in the mornings too. It's pretty cool to see two 747's taking off next to each other and the 13R departure making a sharp right turn while the 13L departure makes a sharp left turn. BA used to specifically request 13L departures in the past because that runway was closest to their terminal and they wanted to cut the taxi time.

Anyways, I came back from LHR last night. LHR is apparently capped at 87 movements per hour and they only have two runways. As well, I've noticed that arrivals and departures are spaced much closer together than they are at any US airport I've seen. Is it that their radar technology is that much better than ours? They're planning to change LHR's runway operations by allowing for mixed usage of both runways (presently, they just use one for arrivals and the other for departures, except in the early mornings when all the US flights come in and they'll allow dual runway usage). Furthermore, they're a lot of debate on building a third runway there. They really seem to need it as it's more congested than any other airport I've been to and they don't want to lose out in the future to FRA, CDG, AMS and now MAD, all of which have plenty of room to expand. The FAA was moaning about delays last summer, but LHR's delayed arrivals are much worse than LGA's. If anyone has flown there, they'll remember circling around for at least 10 minutes. Even in the early mornings. Their departures seem to move quicker, though.

[DHG750R]

Just another thought. In addition to noise abatement as a reasoning behind runway selection. The following is particularly true in warmer months. In the morning . early part of the day, the prevailing winds are offshore, meaning as the sun heats the atmosphere ,the landmass heats faster than the water . so any wind would be from say a westerly direction. As the air begins to cool, the landmass again will cool quicker than the water. meaning the prevailing winds will then reverse and become "onshore" ( become more southerly in direction. ) Anyone who lives near the south shore can probably attest to nature's a/c in the summer. :borat:

In airspace as complex as NY's what surrounding airports are doing sometimes play a big role in runway selection as well.

[SengaB]

I'm glad someone FINALLY added that reason.

Congrats!

This is the main reason along with the early morning South American arrivals and the euros in the afternoon/evening. It works out well.

Senga