BA 777 lands short of runway at Heathrow

[RDU-JFK]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080117/ap_ ... tain_plane (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080117/ap_on_re_eu/britain_plane)

[Iberia A340-600]

First the A340-600 incident in Quito and now a 777-200 accident in London. Not exactly a good couple of months for 21st century aircraft!

From the pictures I just saw on CNN the damage looked pretty bad, I'm curious to hear what actually happened.

[MarkLawrence]

I just got an email from the UK - he landed short of the runway - Heathrow is in absolute chaos at the moment - as can be imagined.

The liunk to the BBC article...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 194086.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/7194086.stm)

[MarkLawrence]

There is a link on the above page to an In Pictures page - 1 X Written Off 777-200ER!

[wunaladreamin]

"On its approach it took the runway too low, just missing the roof of my cab."

Someone check his drawers. Seriously, it's a miracle nobody got seriously hurt. This could have been way worse.

[PhilDernerJr]

I'm amazed that only 6 people were hurt with no injuries. Thank God.

I am very interested to hear what the cause of this was. I don't understand how you just fall short like that. I don't think there was bad weather in the area. Windshear maybe?

Hats off to the cabin crew for getting everyone off. We've been seeing some stellars performances these last few years during evacuations.

[ChrisW]

According to news reports, the Captain told reporters that he lost all power and avionics on short final. Tonight at work I'll see what I can come up with in the simulator. I'll have a chat with our 777 instructors to see what their take is.

[PhilDernerJr]

With no fire like that, fuel (or lack thereof) could be the culprit.

[adam613]

There is a link on the above page to an In Pictures page - 1 X Written Off 777-200ER!

Is that the first 777 to be written off? I know they still haven't had any fatal accidents (other than the refueler on the ground in Denver)...

[Matt Molnar]

Of course I take this with a grain of salt, but the TV report I heard this morning said the pilot was making an emergency landing. Other than the crew misjudging the start of the runway, I'm guessing some kind of loss of power would be the cause of this. The plane stopping pretty quickly after touching the ground might also be an indication that the aircraft was not moving very quickly, i.e. it didn't have any thrust.

[ChrisW]

Fuel starvation on a 777 is very difficult - but certainly a possibility. We'll have to wait and see.

[ChrisW]

There has been one 777 scrapped (or in the process of being scrapped) prior to this frame - C/N: 27109/19 was flown to ARG in late 2006 for part-out/scrapping. This bird was originally delivered to BA as G-ZZZE in 1996 and later saw service with Khalifa as 7T-VKQ and Varig as PP-VRD. It was an odd-ball among other 777s as it was a non-ER bird with GE-90 engines.

[MarkLawrence]

The latest according to the BBC..


An airport worker told the BBC the pilot on the Boeing 777 had said he had lost all power, and had been forced to glide the plane into land.

The worker also said the pilot had told him all the electronics had also failed.

[NIKV69]

I would like to know what the FDR says. Then again with a total loss of power does it have a back up power source? How does a 777 just lose everything?

[ChrisW]

Just because the news media says there was a total loss of power doesn't mean there was a total loss of power. If he lost both engines at 500 ft. a deployed RAT at VREF speed would be essentially useless - you would be at the mercy of gravity at that point. In any case, we'll just have to wait to see what the investigation comes up with.

[eric8669]

Not to make light of the situation, but this passengers quote is priceless.

"There was no indication that we were going to have a bad landing," he said. "When we hit the ground it was extremely rough, but I've had rough landings before and I thought 'This is the roughest I've had.'

"Then the emergency exits were opened and we were all told we should go through as quickly as possible, and the moment I was away from the plane I started to realize that the undercarriage was away, and we had missed the runway.

Jerome Ensinck, a passenger aboard the flight

[DHG750R]

Looking at pictues of the tail of the aircraft It looks as if the APU door is open , meaning it was started or in the process of being started.

Phil is right , the lack of fire is interesting ...

[adam613]

Phil is right , the lack of fire is interesting ...

I thought the same thing. The fire trucks started spraying immediately, but there was no mention of any serious fire. Given the condition of the wings and engine mounts, that screams fuel exhaustion. But I'm not entirely sure how one could run a 777 out of fuel without realizing it, unless there was something wrong with the fuel pumps or the system that measures the fuel...

[Mellyrose]

Not to make light of the situation, but this passengers quote is priceless.

"There was no indication that we were going to have a bad landing," he said. "When we hit the ground it was extremely rough, but I've had rough landings before and I thought 'This is the roughest I've had.'

"Then the emergency exits were opened and we were all told we should go through as quickly as possible, and the moment I was away from the plane I started to realize that the undercarriage was away, and we had missed the runway.

Jerome Ensinck, a passenger aboard the flight


Well considering the damage to the plane, this exhibits one helluva job on the pilots' end. Thank god there was no panic or serious injuries.

[USAF Pilot 07]

With no fire like that, fuel (or lack thereof) could be the culprit.


That's what I was thinking... Beijing to London is a pretty long ways....

[NIKV69]

Phil is right , the lack of fire is interesting ...That's what I was thinking... Beijing to London is a pretty long ways....






Would explain an awful lot. I can't imagine though that a BA Capt would not have declared a fuel emergency and went through proper procedure to get that plane down quickly before she ran dry. Still a chance that there was enough fuel and he didn't hit hard enough to ignite anything but this is sure hinky.

[cancidas]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/uk_enl_1200577689/img/1.jpg

how do you do that much damage to the wing root? WOW!! anyone know the reg?

[PHL Approach]

how do you do that much damage to the wing root? WOW!! anyone know the reg?

It was YMMM, I think I have a photo of it somewhere here. Gotta dig it up.

[DHG750R]

It's G-YMMM according to Aviation-safety.net

That looks like they maingear coming up thru the wing. Evidence of a very hard touchdown..

[Iberia A340-600]

Looks like the main cause of the wing route damage was the left landing gear! If you look at the damage you can clearly see it went straight up into the wing.

[moose135]

Hard to believe they would just run it out of gas without knowing about it and diverting if it was going to be that close - they should have had enough not only to make it to London, but for holding/wx divert as well. If they were that far behind the fuel curve, they should have done something before short final.

I don't make too much of the fact that there was no fire. Obviously I don't know what the underside looks like, but the damage to the wings look to be contained to the area above the gear, where it came through the wing. There shouldn't be any fuel in that area - it's the wheel well, the fuel tanks aren't in that area. The engines are designed to break away, without tearing up the wing, and it looks like they did that. All in all, if there is fuel on board, I'm not surprised there was no fire.

This is a puzzle.

[ChrisW]

I doubt it was fuel starvation. The chances of the bird running out of fuel on a final approach after flying all the way from PEK without incident are slim to none. The 777 gets real angry when it thinks it might get thirsty.

The 777 runs on an AIMS (Aircraft Information Management System) - further, it has two redundant AIMS systems (left and right). The 777 is also very "aware" of all aspects of all phases of flight.

Even IF you loose both motors - even on final - standby 115 VAC is available and will power vital systems.

We're looking at something more complex here than simple "fuel starvation." A catastrophic systems failure - synonymous with a computer "crash" - is what I'm leaning towards.

[LGA777]

If I am not mistaken in previous cases of fuel starvation I can never remember two or both engines quiting at exactly the same time, maybe within a minute or two of each other, but never exactly together.

I saw one quote on the news last night I really liked. I believe it was from the airport worker who was planeside and the Captain told about loosing all power and instruments. He said the pilots deserve a medal as "BIG AS A FRYING PAN" with a great British accent. Never heard that one before but IMO what a great and fitting line !

Cheers

LGA777

[Ari707]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 700633.ece (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article700633.ece)

[PhilDernerJr]

Looks like computer failure is being blamed.

Though the computer made the nose come up, is that something the pilot was able to counteract with a forward push or was the plane doing its own thing regardless? I assume the plane leveled before tuoching down, as coming down on the tail would have ripped the plane open, no?

Computer failure raises many questions about the future of airline travel, I think. I think about that Air France A320 crash and people will wonder if we're relying on them too much.

[moose135]

Looks like computer failure is being blamed.

I know, I know, they should have had a Mac...

http://www.micom.net/oops/WindowsPanel.jpg

[Matt Molnar]

AP (via Breitbart):

Heathrow Crash Report: Engines Failed (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8U8FLLO0&show_article=1)
Jan 18 02:12 PM US/Eastern
By TARIQ PANJA
Associated Press Writer

LONDON (AP) - The engines on a British Airways plane that crash-landed at London's Heathrow airport failed to respond for a demand to increase thrust about two miles before it reached the runway, a preliminary accident report said Friday. Read more... (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8U8FLLO0&show_article=1)

[NIKV69]

Jeez both engines failing to respond, hmmm why is something telling me this isn't going to be water leaking into the battery units like the Qantas 744? This is very interesting.

[ChrisW]

Raises questions? Such as?

Computers have been flying planes since the L-1011 entered service (it was the first with autoland capability). They aren't going anywhere.

Computers do what their operators tell them. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[cancidas]

it is. didn't the UAL 777 that diverted over the northern atlantic have the same issue of engines flaming out and not responding to throttle input?

[Delta777LR]

Well it is very sad to see a first Boeing 777 to be written off as of course they are my favorate aircraft.

[Derf]

1. Engines were at power when impact! (look at the dirt in the compressors!)
2. Engines did not respond (DUH!!!! if the engines are at a very low n2, then you throw the throttles foward.....ENGINES DO NOT RESPOND!

my take:
Crew did not realize the power on the engine was that low....(possible autopilot autothrottle)
speed decays.....
F/O- Were getting really slow...
Pilot- Throttles to the stops....
Narrator - 1 one thousand, 2 one thousand, 3.........
Pilot-THROTTLES TO THE STOPPS.....
F/O- They are!!!
(sounds of throttles hitting the idle stops and then full power again)
Pilot- *$#%in POWER..POWER....POWER
F/O- Awww Crap, that is the spotlight I need for my backyard!

(my version will be a little different but should be close!)
Time will tell and the new digital recorders in the 777 should produce some awesomely clean results on what happened....expect to see a few videos from the NTSB on this one!

[Derf]

Just incase anyone does not know...jet engines are slow to react if the power is low....they had serious problems with the 727 doing this exact crash with impact short of the runway due to pilots not knowing how to properly handle a 727 with a large flap and slow engine reaction time.

it usually takes about 8 seconds to get to full power....the engine needs to spool up before you can really get the kick in the pants.... if you are close to minimums and your n2 on the engine is very low and about to stall....you just ate the farm.

Time will bring Facts

[cancidas]

there already was a flight sim video i saw on ABC the day after the crash.

fred, you're right about the engines being slow to spool up, but why do you think the NTSB is going to have anything to do with the investigation? it's a british airlines airplane, that crashed in the UK.

[Derf]

Boeing and the NTSB will be given the Flight Data Recorder info...there may not be a report by them, but they will play with the data and I am sure they will hook it into their sim. I think you will see a video released.

[Derf]

there already was a flight sim video i saw on ABC the day after the crash.
.....

Speculation and eye candy... it is way too soon for all the data to be processed...then give it 3months to a year to be released. I can do the same thing with flight simuator...does not mean it will be accurate.

[cancidas]

next question, was the a/c doing a CDA (continuous descent approach) or was it on a standard non-CDA?

[Derf]

Well, I really do not want to stop at an approach type, was the auto pilot on with the autothrottles? What was the N2 on throttle up? I want to see the throttle possions only then coupled with the engine characteristics. Did they run out of Columbian coffee (could account for not going around).

[LGA777]

Fred, based on your theories how do you explain the loss of cockpit instruments just prior to the accident ?

LGA777

[Derf]

I am looking at one piece of fact....the engines were under power on impact. I do not have all the facts... I have one

I would love to know what happened (No real good report on everything yet and still a lot of "I was told by an expert")

[flyboy 28]

Heathrow's new safety measures-

http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/EGNXRUN777.gif

[Derf]

Heathrow's new safety measures-

http://www.simviation.com/yabbuploads/EGNXRUN777.gif

You are sooo bad! :borat:

[Derf]

Here is a clip from an email I got.... Not saying any more than this right now.

"During the flight, Beijing to London, more fuel burned than expected. However, the pilots decided to continue to their destination (Heathrow) knowing they would have less than the Alternate Fuel requirement (enough fuel to fly to an alternate airport and hold 30 minutes at 1500ft). The aircraft's load was less than 50% so the amount of Alternate Fuel needed was probably lowered during the flight, thus making the Captain legal

to continue to London with less alternate fuel than was on his flight plan. That's legal procedure considering weather, runway and delay situations.


The result was a very light fuel load during the final approach to Heathrow. However, using maximum flap setting for landing increased the nose attitude to a level where the remaining fuel ran to the rear of the fuel tank and the fuel pumps were sucking air and unable to supply sufficient fuel to keep the engines running. This resulted in both engines flaming out on final approach, along with a complete loss of electricity and hydraulics.


On the Airbus we have procedures saying that when low on fuel do not use full flaps for landing, due to the higher nose attitude. I'm no B777 expert but I would guess there is a similar Boeing recommendation/procedure. The pilots either forgot this, simply ignored it, or for some reason, weren't aware of the danger they were in. "


Not sure of its origin.....but it comes from someone I have a lot of respect for and has never
steered me wrong yet.

[Derf]

I really hope this is wrong...it just does not sound possible.

[PhilDernerJr]

As said earlier, that makes no sense, as I've never heard of both engines losing power from no fuel at the same moment.

[mirrodie]

Flyboy, I liked that :)

Im just glad everyone came from the crash living and breathing and that it didnt come down on the pub where we stay when in London.

Our friend at the pub said she could not hear the impact. However, she was feeding the rescue crews on rotating shifts all day.


I can;t speculate but can't wait to hear what happened. I'm sure its a AIR CRASH INVESTIGATION episode in a few years that nnoe here will miss.

[h2opunk1822]

A friend of mine found this.. Found it interesting about the Incident!


http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fligh ... den-1.html (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/2008/01/leaked-detailed-ba-777-acciden-1.html)

[PhilDernerJr]

Very interesting stuff. Frozen fuel not getting to the engines? Maybe.

[hiss srq]

Very interesting stuff. Frozen fuel not getting to the engines? Maybe.
Heated tanks or prist anyone?

[Matt Molnar]

Very interesting. The frozen fuel situation seems unlikely to me, as just like regular fuel exhaustion, it seems unlikely that both engines would ingest ice at the same time. The new software sounds like the most likely suspect to me, but we'll see.

[Iberia A340-600]

Funny caption related to this subject:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Jet_Airw ... 366/large/ (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Jet_Airways/Boeing_777-35R-ER/1323366/large/)