Taking the DSLR plunge - done!

[adam613]

Ok, I admit it. The Panasonic FZ50 was a mistake. Remember those noisy night pics I posted in the HDR thread a few weeks ago? Those were taken at ISO200. :oops: I've gotten a lot more into photography over the last few months than I ever expected to when I started taking pics of planes. Especially night photography. And I'm the sort of person who takes a lot of pride in my work. So if this is going to be a serious hobby, I really should do it right.

Fortunately, the FZ50 doesn't look like it's going to be a very expensive mistake. It looks like I can resell it for not a lot more than I paid, and I can use the proceeds towards a DSLR. The prospect of plane-spotting with a DSLR seemed expensive to me, because good telephoto lenses are expensive to buy. But not to rent! Adorama Rentals has the Canon 100-400 L or the Nikon 80-400 for $35 per weekend. That, I can afford. So really, all I'd need to buy is a body and an everyday lens; I could rent a long lens for our nycaviation adventures, until I can afford to buy one I'll be happy with.

So, I need advice in starting small. I'm leaning towards Canon, primarily because I like their options better on the low end, and I like how they handle the big lens-small sensor issue better than Nikon. My mind can be changed if someone has compelling arguments, but don't start a flame war please :)

Say I bought a used Digital Rebel XT for $374. The XTi is $550ish new, and there don't seem to be a lot of them used...is the XTi that much better that I shouldn't consider an XT? For the same price, the XT is better than a 10D, right?

Lens options I've considered (all prices are B&H):
1) Tamron two-lens kit (EF 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 and EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6) for $209
2) Canon EF 28-105mm f/4-5.6 USM Autofocus for $149
3) Canon EF 28-105mm f/3.5-4.5 II USM Autofocus for $219

I know the best lens is (3). And I know that the Tamron kit is going to be fairly low-quality lenses. But at that level, how much difference am I going to see? Less sharp images? Chromatic aberration? The Tamron 70-300 doesn't have IS, but usually if I need a long lens I'm either using a tripod or a fast shutter speed, so is that a big deal? Keep in mind that I'd probably rent a 100-400 L for weekends I knew I'd be spotting.

Any of these options would be a big step up from what I have now, right? Am I making another mistake by trying to go cheap to start out? Anything else I should be looking at? Anyone looking at upgrading and want to sell me their used stuff? :)

[nwafan20]

Don't go with anything but the 28-105 II out of those choices.

The other two choices will get you noisy, unfocused, and just plain bad quality pictures.

[adam613]

Don't go with anything but the 28-105 II out of those choices.

The other two choices will get you noisy, unfocused, and just plain bad quality pictures.

That's kinda what I expected to hear. Is the 28-105 II a passable lens though? If so, that has plenty of range for everyday usage...

[nwafan20]

I am a 28-105 II owner myself. For the price, it really is an awesome lens! I usually get very good results with it, and for only like $200, you can't beat it!

[stuart schechter]

Adam,

All of my photos you have seen me take, and if you haven't, then oops! I own a 28-105 USM II also and love it.

[adam613]

Ok, that's two votes in favor of the lens. Thanks for the input.

What about the body? Is a Digital Rebel XT a good deal at $374, or would I be much better off spending $550 on a Digital Rebel XTi? The XT is better than a 10D at the same price, right?

[nwafan20]

Yes, the XT is better than the 10D.

As for XT vs. XTi, you really have to look at what YOU want out of it.

The XT is a cheaper investment, but it will be considered "old" much sooner than the XTi, the XTi also has better technology, such as the self cleaning sensor, a 2.5 inch screen, a 10.1 MP sensor (vs. 8 MP in the XT), and some of the kinks of the XT have been worked out in the XTi.

If you are looking to upgrade your body soon, I would go with the XT, if you are looking to hold on to it for a while, I would go with the XTi.


Just my $0.02

[adam613]

We'll see what I can get for the current camera; I'm willing to spend $300 on top of that. I listed it on Amazon at $420 (including the extra batteries and an SD card). If it sells for that, I'd probably be able to swing the XTi. I'm not tremendously worried about having an "old" camera as long as it takes good pictures, but the XTi would last me longer than the XT would.

(If anyone knows anyone who wants it and will pay cash, I'll cut $30 or so off the price, because that's what Amazon would charge me if I sell through them...for what it is, it's a good camera...)

[T-Bird76]

Adam vs going with the entry level XT look to spend the few extra bucks on a new XTi or even a new 20D. New 20D's are still around and it's one hell of a camera. Even if it means you have to wait a bit I think that might be your best bet. If you can score a good price on a new 20D I'd jump on that in a second.

[adam613]

I should have made this decision a month ago so I could have bought Eric's used 20D :)

B&H has a used 20D for $600...that's a little more than I wanted to spend, but not out of the question. New ones look like they run about $800, which is too much. How much better is the 20D than the XTi? Am I likely to get a much better price on a new one if I wait a couple of months?

[adam613]

So I've gotten some nibbles on the FZ50, and if any of those pan out, the XTi is a go.

I can get that 28-105 USM II for $219 new or $179 used...is there any downside to buying used lenses? Can I going to do any better, lens-wise, in the $250 range? I want something with a range of at least 28-100...I'll rent a 100-400L for spotting weekends, so I don't need a tremendous amount of zoom.

Do I need to buy fast memory cards? There's a big price difference between the basic Kingston/SanDisk cards and the SanDisk Extreme III/Lexar 133x cards that the camera stores seem to love to sell, and I'm not paying a premium on memory if I don't have to.

Do I need more than one extra battery? At this time of year, I doubt I could spot for more than six hours no matter how much I wanted to :)

Thanks all...

[pgengler]

I can get that 28-105 USM II for $219 new or $179 used...is there any downside to buying used lenses?

I've bought a couple of used lenses and never had any problems. All but one were bought from B&H, which offers you some measure of assurance that it's been checked out and (I think) has a return policy for them.


Do I need more than one extra battery? At this time of year, I doubt I could spot for more than six hours no matter how much I wanted to :)

I have five batteries (what can I say, I get a little paranoid sometimes) but I don't think I've ever gone through more than three in a day, and even then I was changing as soon as the battery indicator changed from the "full" icon to the "not as full" one (I suspect there's another icon for "change me now!" but I haven't gotten to that point yet). There've been plenty of times I've expected to need to use a second battery and been able to shoot a whole day on a single battery, but it's definitely a good idea to have two. If you do it right, you'll always have one battery charged and ready while the other charges, in case you need to grab the camera for something unexpected.

Also, of my batteries, two are Canon (one from my old Rebel and one from my 30D) and the other three are RadioShack. The RS ones last longer than the Rebel battery and at least as long as the 30D one, so that's something to look into, as the RS ones are cheaper than Canon ones.

[SmAlbany]

Do I need to buy fast memory cards? There's a big price difference between the basic Kingston/SanDisk cards and the SanDisk Extreme III/Lexar 133x cards that the camera stores seem to love to sell, and I'm not paying a premium on memory if I don't have to.



My experience with my DReb was that the fast memory card did not make a difference to the camera (ie the camera did not need or make use of the faster card). Fast cards do make a difference to a card reader - faster download to the computer.

I just upgraded to the Xti but I only have 200 clicks on it so I don't know yet if a faster card helps clear the buffer or not.

[pgengler]

My experience with my DReb was that the fast memory card did not make a difference to the camera (ie the camera did not need or make use of the faster card). Fast cards do make a difference to a card reader - faster download to the computer.

I had (and still have, but don't really use) an original DReb, and with that camera, it couldn't write at anything near a card's top speed, so the camera was definitely the limiting factor. With anything more recent, the camera is much faster. I don't know how much, though, but I don't think that the camera is writing at anywhere near the card's top speed. Unless you're doing a lot of burst shooting you're not likely to ever notice the card's speed, since the camera's buffer would keep everything going.

[adam613]

I've bought a couple of used lenses and never had any problems. All but one were bought from B&H, which offers you some measure of assurance that it's been checked out and (I think) has a return policy for them.

Yeah, the plan was to buy from B&H. It's six blocks from my office, and it's a great store, and their prices are competitive with the internets.


Also, of my batteries, two are Canon (one from my old Rebel and one from my 30D) and the other three are RadioShack. The RS ones last longer than the Rebel battery and at least as long as the 30D one, so that's something to look into, as the RS ones are cheaper than Canon ones.

Interesting...I'll definitely check that out.

Regarding the memory card stuff, the XTi can store 27 JPEG frames in its buffer at 3fps, and I can't imagine why I'd ever need to shoot more than that...So I guess I'll buy a few cheap memory cards instead of one expensive one :)

[NIKV69]

I should have made this decision a month ago so I could have bought Eric's used 20D

Yep, exactly what I was going to say. Tommy is right. The way the DSLR world moves you would just frustrate yourself if you buy an XT. As you improve your skill you will outgrow the camera fast. Where as waiting just a little and getting the 20D will give you a body you can get a lot out of for a much more period of time. I have found that in this business it's best to spend a little more money and get more camera. In the end you end up saving money because you will be able to hold on to a body for a longer period of time as opposed to selling one and buying another. A year from now the 30D etc etc.

[adam613]

Yep, exactly what I was going to say. Tommy is right. The way the DSLR world moves you would just frustrate yourself if you buy an XT. As you improve your skill you will outgrow the camera fast. Where as waiting just a little and getting the 20D will give you a body you can get a lot out of for a much more period of time. I have found that in this business it's best to spend a little more money and get more camera. In the end you end up saving money because you will be able to hold on to a body for a longer period of time as opposed to selling one and buying another. A year from now the 30D etc etc.

Yes, I've been talked out of the XT :) The decision is between a new XTi and a used 20D now, and it seems like the XTi is a better bet, with the integrated anti-dust system, bigger LCD, and new(er) image processor. The 20D would be a no-brainer compared to the XT, but I haven't heard any compelling reasons to choose the 20D over the XTi yet...

Eric's 20D was offered at a much better price than I've seen any other 20Ds...

Nick, I thought you were a Nikon guy? :borat:

[moose135]

Nick, I thought you were a Nikon guy? :borat:

He is, but we're working on luring him back from the Dark Side. :)

[NIKV69]

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Never-Used-Cano ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Never-Used-Canon-EOS-20D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body_W0QQitemZ250193621227QQihZ015QQcategoryZ10790 7QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Check this out Adam.

I am a Nikon guy but both companies behave the same with models. One gets popular then another is launched and price drops.

Looking long term your play is a 20D. They are to be had cheap so find one with a US warranty and get it.

[adam613]

I'm not sure long-haul this is...it's my first SLR camera, ever. If I outgrow this camera like I outgrew my Canon S3, I'll be looking to upgrade significantly (as in 30D or 40D) in a year. If not, I suspect I'd be satisfied with either model.

The XTi is also to be had cheap, as these things go. What specifically makes the 20D better? I'll spend the extra money if it will make a big difference, but I haven't seen a lot of evidence that it will. I've read a lot about how the image quality isn't significantly different, and I like the big LCD and anti-dust system on the XTi.

[pgengler]

I don't think there's a significant image quality difference between the 20D and the XTi; if you're planning on making large (poster-size or bigger) prints, the megapixel difference might start to matter, or if you plan to do a LOT of cropping to images (but it's generally better to get a longer lens than to do extreme cropping) the extra MP of the XTi could come in handy. The biggest difference between the 20D (or the 30D, which I have, but is substantially similar) and the XTi is the feel of the camera. The 20D feels a lot tougher, more rugged, and in my option, better. The XTi is a lot smaller, has a plastic body, and to me has a toy-like feel. You might want to try holding both, though, and seeing which is a better fit/feel.

[NIKV69]

You can argue either till the cows come home but consider some things.

The 20D is built much better. Feel, material etc.

As far as dust removal. I don't base my decisions on it. Buy a rocket blower and deal with the llittle extra time cloning them out in PS.

Performance favors 20D, fps, sensitivity etc.

I don't understand how some like the bigger LCD screen. Once the shot is taken it's over. In fact I don't even really spend much time viewing them and just wait because viewing them in ACR is what it boils down to anyway. Once I have seen the histogram I don't need to dwell looking at the pic in the LCD.

I doubt 2MP is enough to make a difference.

If you want a good performing camera that you can own for good period of time while your shooting skills improve it just makes sense to spend the extra money and get a 20D, whether new, refurbed or on ebay. Just avoid grey market.

[adam613]

B&H has a used 20D (8+ condition) for $599...that's only $50 more than a new XTi...

Maybe I'll head over there before work tomorrow and play around with both models...

[adam613]

Nick and Phil win again. I went to the B&H used department this morning and asked to take a look at a 20D. It...doesn't feel like a toy! The LCD is only a little smaller than my current camera (in other words, not a big problem), and I like the status window on top of the camera. I'm not sure the 20D could take more than 9 or 10 pics in the time it took me to make my decision.


I don't understand how some like the bigger LCD screen. Once the shot is taken it's over. In fact I don't even really spend much time viewing them and just wait because viewing them in ACR is what it boils down to anyway. Once I have seen the histogram I don't need to dwell looking at the pic in the LCD.

Us point-and-shoot users are addicted to our big LCDs :) Big sharp LCDs (like on the Sony superzooms) are a huge help for fixing exposure issues on advanced point-and-shoots, because the light meter tends to overexpose airplane pictures and after you see how washed out the first shots are, you can adjust the exposure compensation. But, I won't have those problems to start with on a 20D, will I? :D

I really appreciate everyone's help on this...

[adam613]

It's a semi-done deal. I got $400 for the FZ50 with three batteries and a 2GB SD card (which is great, since I paid $375 for just the camera and a battery). I bought:

1) A Canon EOS 20D (9-quality)
2) A Canon EF-S 17-55mm IS lens
3) A Canon EF 70-300mm lens (the cheap one)

Total price: $868

I went with cheap lenses for flexibility. After advice from several people, I decided that since I'm relatively new at this, I should go for maximum flexibility to start out. And since in a few months I'll be able to spend money on lenses, doing so even at the expense of quality is feasible. Once I've got an idea of what I want to do and what I need maximum quality for, I'll know what L lens is the best use of my money (28-105, fisheye, 100-400, etc).

In other words, long-term body (since I know that can grow with me), short-term lenses.

And, there's a 14-day return policy, so I know what I'm going to be doing for the next two weeks :)