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NIKV69
10-01-2007, 07:19 PM
I picked up a gentleman from Holland today at the station and we headed out for some shooting. The wx was crap and they were using the 13s so it was not to be. I decided to show him some of the spots around JFK in the hope the sun would come out and winds would change. Our first stop was Cargo plaza. As I made the left into the AI lot I noticed a PA cruiser way up the road. By the time I parked he was on me and pulled next to me and rolled his window down and asked what I was doing. When I told him we were watching the arrival traffic he shook his head and said "No way" I said no problem and we left. I have had encounters before but this had a different tone to it. I do hope I am wrong but I remembered a post back in August in spotting review.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7789 (http://www.nycaviation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7789)

Now not to start an argument but one of the pics shows a spotter under the landing lights while he shoots an arrival. I don't think I will be alone here in my thinking that something like that is a tad irresponsible and I would implore people to use better judgment. Especially in a location such as this. This time of year is when the light is favorable for 13L arrivals and I would hope to get some shooting in before I leave. If anyone has any encounters there I would ask you post it here. I do hope we don't lose this great spot.

PhilDernerJr
10-01-2007, 07:33 PM
This is a fair point, and one that has been discussed before for years about this location.

First, it needs to be said that this location is not public property regardless of a person's behavior. If asked to leave, we must do so.

With that, however, it's fair to say and request that people behave responsibly in such locations.

Walking up to the landing lights is a debatable part of it, and I think either side has understandable views.

I think it's fair to say, though, that when it's someone in the mid-teens that's doing the activity, it looks a lot less threatening to the public, and therefore might not draw the same suspicion and not create the same detriment to the location or the hobby.

An adult walking up to them CAN look bad. I think that if people want to be lined up with the landing lights, that they should do it from the sidewalk part of the line and not in the grass.

But in the end, I personally don't think that the above photos you mentioned, Nick, have anything to do with your run-in.

mirrodie
10-01-2007, 07:37 PM
I picked up a gentleman from Holland today at the station.......

By the time I parked he was on me.......

..... I do hope we don't lose this great spot.

Perhaps I'm missing something but what are you and a guy from Holland doing in a parked car at the Cargo plaza? Were you being accused of suspicious behavior? Did you have you NYCA postcard?

T-Bird76
10-01-2007, 07:45 PM
When Florian and Chris were up we had a run in with a square badge but they let us stay after I explained what we were doing. PAPD is generally pretty cool about that spot, perhaps some left over VIP traffic was still around and they wanted the area clear.

I would also agree that those pics have nothing to do with the run in. I've been out there where I've seen a father son throwing a ball around. You could have just got a hard ass cop. IMO that entire area should be made into a nice park, there's plenty of land for parking and would be a great gesture to the community by Port turning into an observation park like other airports have. Comon Phil you need to lead the charge! "The Phil Derner Jr. JFK Observation Park."

NIKV69
10-01-2007, 07:58 PM
Walking up to the landing lights is a debatable part of it, and I think either side has understandable views.



I feel this act to be incredibly irresponsible at best. We really have no business being near those lights. This area is not public and acts like this just attract way too much attention. Why would we want to push our luck in a spot like this. If the PA allows us to shoot from the lot or in front of the taxi stand I think we should be happy with that.


Perhaps I'm missing something but what are you and a guy from Holland doing in a parked car at the Cargo plaza? Were you being accused of suspicious behavior?

Mario why must you inject this worthless banter into everyone of my threads. If you have something constructive please add it if you are going to constantly add these off topic posts maybe a mod should take some action and delete them? Oh wait you are a mod I forgot.


IMO that entire area should be made into a nice park, there's plenty of land for parking and would be a great gesture to the community by Port turning into an observation park like other airports have. Comon Phil you need to lead the charge! "The Phil Derner Jr. JFK Observation Park."



Oh yea Tommy why don't we just build a pool while we are at it. Under an active runway? I think your idea had two chances. Slim and none.



LOL NYCA postcards is that a joke too? Good one Mario.



Quite, I don't carry any. I don't see what purpose they serve. I can tell someone about my participation in a hobby fine by myself.

In summation I never said the pics where the reason we may lose this spot but I feel actions like the one depicted can. I hope I am wrong about it but if we lose this spot it will be a sad commentary to how some people take it as an obligation to shoot at certain spots instead of a privelege. Which is being displayed here.

PhilDernerJr
10-01-2007, 08:02 PM
As I said, I don't think a 15 year old doing that causes any damage. An adult doing it just might. It has to be looked at at the perception of both the public and law enforcement.



We really have no business being near those lights.

Technically, we have just as much business in the parking lot altogether.

NIKV69
10-01-2007, 08:06 PM
As I said, I don't think a 15 year old doing that causes any damage. An adult doing it just might. It has to be looked at at the perception of both the public and law enforcement.



I think this is a stretch. Actually I don't think it makes any sense. Then can a 19 year old do it? 21? What's next? Are you going to profile how the person looks? People don't belong there Phil.


Technically, we have just as much business in the parking lot altogether.



Really? I think AI would have a different opinion about that. It's their property. Not a public parking lot.

T-Bird76
10-01-2007, 08:06 PM
Nick in Vancouver they have a park exactly just like what I'm talking about under an active runway, no difference between YVR and JFK, a plane is a plane, DFW also has Founders Plaza and a new observation park opening soon. I think it could have a shot.

SP-LPB
10-01-2007, 08:14 PM
Little attention is given to the common good of the spotters to preserve those spots. When you mess up others will suffer from it. So think before you act and use common sense.

When you get told to leave and you are on private property you must comply! There is no maybe here. When your rights are being trampled step in, but do it wisely.


Nick in Vancouver they have a park exactly just like what I'm talking about under an active runway, no difference between YVR and JFK, a plane is a plane, DFW also has Founders Plaza and a new observation park opening soon. I think it could have a shot.

Tommy, there is a park like that at LGA and still there are visits and kick-out attempts made there. So there is a visible difference between NY and Vancouver.

nwafan20
10-01-2007, 08:21 PM
Well, I was there that day that we were under the landing lights, and there were 2 police cars sitting RIGHT there while we were doing it, they saw us. THEY LEFT US ALONE, didn't even come over and say anything.

I'm sorry if you feel offended by that, but the fact is Phil is right! The public does not find 3 15 year old boys any where near as threatening as adults, sorry to tell you, but it's true.

But I will also tell you, there were several other people at Cargo Plaza on the days we were there (not spotters), they didn't care, there was actually a Police officer WALKING HIS DOG THROUGH THE LANDING LIGHTS, so apparently he doesn't feel it's a big deal either...

Now, i'm not saying I am taking advantage of this, but the police didn't seem to mind at all, so it was a moot point, those pictures have NOTHING to do with your run-in.

T-Bird76
10-01-2007, 08:31 PM
Little attention is given to the common good of the spotters to preserve those spots. When you mess up others will suffer from it. So think before you act and use common sense.

When you get told to leave and you are on private property you must comply! There is no maybe here. When your rights are being trampled step in, but do it wisely.

[quote="T-Bird76":0605a]Nick in Vancouver they have a park exactly just like what I'm talking about under an active runway, no difference between YVR and JFK, a plane is a plane, DFW also has Founders Plaza and a new observation park opening soon. I think it could have a shot.

Tommy, there is a park like that at LGA and still there are visits and kick-out attempts made there. So there is a visible difference between NY and Vancouver.[/quote:0605a]

Ah so you agree with my idea, good. Its fine that the police come over but I don't know the last time anyone or if they ever have been kicked out of Plainview park. The point was being under an active doesn't mean a park can't exist and this area is ideal for an observation park.

PhilDernerJr
10-01-2007, 08:48 PM
Nick,

when I say a 15 year old, I mean someone who is noticeably younger compared to other adults. You're taking it too literally by mentioning the 19 year olds. You should know what I mean, as anyone else would, and if you don't, then that's unfortunate and it explains why you have a lot of misunderstandings here.



[quote:638b7]Technically, we have just as much business in the parking lot altogether.



Really? I think AI would have a different opinion about that. It's their property. Not a public parking lot.[/quote:638b7]

No, that's what I'm saying. You think going near the landing lights is wrong, yet going to the parking lot altogether isn't much better. I was saying that we have (or DON'T have) as much of a right to be in either place.

It's just my opinion, as I think many others would share, that the people who tend to call cops on spotters would be less likely to do so when seeing someone that looks like a 15 year old doing it. I also think a police officer would find it less suspicious as well.

I'm not saying it's ok, I just don't think it's damaging.

NIKV69
10-01-2007, 09:12 PM
Well, I was there that day that we were under the landing lights, and there were 2 police cars sitting RIGHT there while we were doing it, they saw us. THEY LEFT US ALONE, didn't even come over and say anything.

I'm sorry if you feel offended by that, but the fact is Phil is right! The public does not find 3 15 year old boys any where near as threatening as adults, sorry to tell you, but it's true.

But I will also tell you, there were several other people at Cargo Plaza on the days we were there (not spotters), they didn't care, there was actually a Police officer WALKING HIS DOG THROUGH THE LANDING LIGHTS, so apparently he doesn't feel it's a big deal either...

Now, i'm not saying I am taking advantage of this, but the police didn't seem to mind at all, so it was a moot point, those pictures have NOTHING to do with your run-in.



Yes you are taking advantage. You obvioulsy don't understand how sensitive an area this is and your actions are clear proof of this. The Cargo area is not really the place to camp out in a big group on the grassy area and near the lights. Yet you seemed to think this was the case. Once again I never said the pictures had anything to do with my run in but continued behavior like yours and the people you were spotting with could jeapordize this area. Just use a lilttle common sense. Your age means nothing. Also it's not the PA you have to worry about. If AI, or the people at the taxi stand or the pilots landing in front of you make it an issue the PA will have to act. Try to see the big picture about this and not just your needs as a spotter.



Its fine that the police come over but I don't know the last time anyone or if they ever have been kicked out of Plainview park. The point was being under an active doesn't mean a park can't exist and this area is ideal for an observation park.


Plainview park is different. It's a public park. I think having a park on airport property is a great idea but I don't think it's going to happen at cargo plaza.


when I say a 15 year old, I mean someone who is noticeably younger compared to other adults. You're taking it too literally by mentioning the 19 year olds. You should know what I mean, as anyone else would, and if you don't, then that's unfortunate and it explains why you have a lot of misunderstandings here.



No Phil it's because your comments are always very general and in the middle. What are you trying to say? So if someone noticeably younger than an adult is doing something it's ok? If these so called 15 year olds went over to the fence behind 13L and climbed up it would it be ok? I think this age argument is totally useless here.


No, that's what I'm saying. You think going near the landing lights is wrong, yet going to the parking lot altogether isn't much better. I was saying that we have (or DON'T have) as much of a right to be in either place.

It's just my opinion, as I think many others would share, that the people who tend to call cops on spotters would be less likely to do so when seeing someone that looks like a 15 year old doing it. I also think a police officer would find it less suspicious as well.

I'm not saying it's ok, I just don't think it's damaging.



Your absolutely right. We don't have a right to be there. So why would anyone (including a 15 year old kid) take that liberty? You can't get into someone's mind and assume how someone will perceive something. I think everyone including our 15 year old spotters should behave the same. You seem to be using this age thing as a free pass and I don't see it.

SP-LPB
10-01-2007, 09:44 PM
Its fine that the police come over but I don't know the last time anyone or if they ever have been kicked out of Plainview park.

Andy was told to leave not too long ago.

PhilDernerJr
10-02-2007, 05:07 AM
No Phil it's because your comments are always very general and in the middle. What are you trying to say? So if someone noticeably younger than an adult is doing something it's ok? If these so called 15 year olds went over to the fence behind 13L and climbed up it would it be ok? I think this age argument is totally useless here.


Third time I'm saying this, and I think what I'm saying is quite clear.

If a random person sees someone that is obviously very young, I don't think they will call the cops or make as big of a stink about it as they would if they saw an adult doing the same.

I'm not saying it's ok, but I don't think it's as detrimental to the location for those young people to do.

I can't get any clearer. I'm sahring my views, not creating specific detailed rules.

mirrodie
10-02-2007, 07:40 AM
If you have something constructive please add it if you are going to constantly add these off topic posts maybe a mod should take some action and delete them? Oh wait you are a mod I forgot.

Yep. And the last time I banned you for the same, well, we all see how effective that was, wasn't it?
:roll: If you think the post has no merit, alert Phil's Team rather than continuing.


So after your minor tirade about worthless banter, I'll stand by my original thought, er, worthless banter.

Two guys in a car will draw attention, no surprise.

If I go with my little guy, I'll be there for hours. That is what Phil is saying.

T-Bird76
10-02-2007, 08:05 AM
[quote="T-Bird76":2007d]Its fine that the police come over but I don't know the last time anyone or if they ever have been kicked out of Plainview park.

Andy was told to leave not too long ago.[/quote:2007d]

Well Andy then should have asked why...you do have the right to question the police as to the legality of what you're doing wrong. If he simply engaged them in conversation he would have been left alone. Funny how only one person in forever was asked to leave Plainview park, not sure I buy it.

T-Bird76
10-02-2007, 08:13 AM
Nick I have to agree with both Phil and Mario and I think you're totally missing the point or choosing to create debate when there really isn't any. The fact that if Mario to his son to Cargo Plaza and stood outside he would be left alone. The perception of a father son mother son of onlookers is going to be far different the two grown men pulling up in a car together. Again that's why there is power in numbers. When ISP had that little viewing area it was closed not because of 9/11 although that did have role it was mainly closed because men were going there to get it on with other men. The PAPD very well could have thought you were there for a Dirty Sanchez Nick.

NIKV69
10-02-2007, 08:19 AM
Jesus I knew it would be worthless to even discuss this topic with you people. Now this is a gay sex thing? The PA officer asked what I was doing and I told him it was spotting not a dirty sanchez Tommy (wonder where you heard that) My God. I guess I will call 1-800 Rent a baby and bring one with my next time I go to shoot at the cargo area.

adam613
10-02-2007, 08:27 AM
Jesus I knew it would be worthless to even discuss this topic with you people. Now this is a gay sex thing? The PA officer asked what I was doing and I told him it was spotting not a dirty sanchez Tommy (wonder where you heard that) My God. I guess I will call 1-800 Rent a baby and bring one with my next time I go to shoot at the cargo area.

When Mario and Phil got detained at ISP, the cop certainly tried to make it sound like a gay sex thing...

T-Bird76
10-02-2007, 08:34 AM
Jesus I knew it would be worthless to even discuss this topic with you people. Now this is a gay sex thing? The PA officer asked what I was doing and I told him it was spotting not a dirty sanchez Tommy (wonder where you heard that) My God. I guess I will call 1-800 Rent a baby and bring one with my next time I go to shoot at the cargo area.

Nick the point that we are trying to make is perception. Society will perceive totally differently Mario and his son vs. a man and another man. That's all this is, itís not a discussion about right or wrong. I don't agree with going out onto the lawn at Cargo like Gordon did, I like the pic he took almost gave it a Screener's Choice but its like the thing that Senga and I went back and forth on, there is a certain level of responsibility that you need to use when spotting, and some blatantly don't. Do they get great shots, yes but at a price that can affect all of us.

However again what is being discussed here is the perception of the conduct. Once Sebastian begins to walk Mario can let him loose around those landing lights and no one will say boo, but if you or I started to snoop around them someone would say something. That's society Nick, you can debate it until you're blue in the face but that's just the fact. Perception in many cases is reality for some.

mirrodie
10-02-2007, 08:46 AM
Jesus I knew it would be worthless to even discuss this topic with you people. Now this is a gay sex thing? The PA officer asked what I was doing and I told him it was spotting not a dirty sanchez Tommy (wonder where you heard that) My God. I guess I will call 1-800 Rent a baby and bring one with my next time I go to shoot at the cargo area.

You people? What people? Are you turning this into an anti-hetero thread? Or an anti-black or anti-white thread? What people Nick? There is no need for that.

Tom is spot on and so is Phil. And as was highlighted by Adam, when Phil and I were questioned at ISP, yep, the whole gay couple thing was played to no satisfaction for SCPD.

So, again, having been on both sides of the fence, where I can take my baby out and watch planes vs being virtually accused of homosexual behavior, maybe, just once, you can see other's points of view?

NIKV69
10-02-2007, 09:05 AM
just once, you can see other's points of view?


I would if it made any sense. This PA officer saw me a half mile away and pulled in after me. He had no idea there were two adult males in the car. I would have gotten thrown out if I was alone, with a baby or with a 15 year old. Then this whole gay thing would (which it is anyway) be complete BS. This had nothing to do with who was in the car. This guy spotted me from a long ways away. I will love to see your point of view, as long as it is a valid one.

T-Bird76
10-02-2007, 09:19 AM
just once, you can see other's points of view?


I would if it made any sense. This PA officer saw me a half mile away and pulled in after me. He had no idea there were two adult males in the car. I would have gotten thrown out if I was alone, with a baby or with a 15 year old. Then this whole gay thing would (which it is anyway) be complete BS. This had nothing to do with who was in the car. This guy spotted me from a long ways away. I will love to see your point of view, as long as it is a valid one.

Nick how is Mario's point not valid? Its a hypothesis of the situation based on what was told and today's preception of two men being together. Even though the cop didn't see two men at first after he saw you he may very well could have beleived something was up. Did you ask him why you had to leave? I know its private property but a simple question might have opened up conversation leading him to let you stay.

PhilDernerJr
10-02-2007, 10:15 AM
Everyone's wrong but Nick. No body understnads or makes sense, except Nick. Every time.

Nick, your situation about a cop following right after you...I can't explain that, and I don't think it has to do with what the discussion is about.

WE are saying that, yes, if you had a baby with you on the grass, you'd have a better chance of not being bothered by police. If you looked young, youd have a better chance of being left alone. That's all we're saying Do you disagree with that statement?

markg
10-02-2007, 12:06 PM
Not to inflame the debate even further, but why does every thread about spotting locations/run-ins with PAPD have to degenerate into an argument worthy of A.net forums. I always thought we were all out there for the same purpose i.e. to have fund doing what we enjoy!

My personal view is that if a parking lot says private property or employees only then it's out of bounds to anyone that is not employed there. As for standing under the landing lights, then that is irresponsible and likely to aggravate the PD even further. If you want to get the approach shot can you not do it from one side of the field or the other, or from the sidewalk of a public road in line with the landing lights.

If I'm asked to move on from a spot, I will do that. It's not worth the grief if you don't and only serves to get the PD to crackdown on everyone using that spot, a la Philly PD and Hog Island Rd.

Matt Molnar
10-02-2007, 01:21 PM
I am locking this thread because it was pointless from the beginning and no positive discussion could possibly arise from it at this point.

If you are on private property and law enforcement tells you to leave, you have to leave. Even if the cop doesn't say "please" or "thank you." End of story. Nothing to discuss.