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View Full Version : Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta



Matt Molnar
09-22-2007, 03:53 PM
Date: Friday, August 24
Route: John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK)-Las Vegas McCarren International Airport (LAS)
Airline: Delta Air Lines
Flight: 427
Aircraft Type: Boeing 757-200
Aircraft Registration: N685DA
Scheduled Departure Time: 4:50pm
Actual Departure Time: 7:50pm
Scheduled Arrival Time: 7:46pm
Actual Arrival Time: 8:50pm

I was preparing for a 1:30 departure from my office to catch the 4:50 flight, when at around 12:30, Delta's computers frantically contacted me via every contact method I had ever given them...email, cell phone, and work phone. The flight would be delayed an hour and would now depart at 5:50. I appreciated that they told me before I left for the airport. I also wasn't surprised, since looking at FlightAware, this flight took off between an hour and 5 hours late literally every day.

With no meal on board, we wanted to grab lunch before we took off anyway. I was supposed to meet the lady at her office where a Town Car was supposed to be waiting for us. He got a flat tire on the way and called to let us know, but since we were in no rush we would now be able to get lunch in the city and avoid the airport's overpriced grub. We had lunch at a coffee shop and caught a yellow cab around 3:45 pm.

We figured it was still pretty early and traffic wouldn't be too terrible, but the Midtown Tunnel, LIE and Van Wyck disagreed. It took over an hour to get to the departures entrance at Terminal 3. We checked our bags at curbside and headed to security, where thankfully the line was under 5 minutes long. After a stop at Hudson News we got to the gate just as boarding was starting, which we hadn't heard announced thanks to the nearly inaudible PA system.

http://nycentric.com/backup/New%20Folder/delta-gate-20070824.jpg
Before pushback.

I had a window seat on the right side, 36F. As expected, the plane had the Song-style seatback IFE with live TV, movies and games, and in fact this was an ex-Song aircraft. I began trying to play with it right away, but the system was not activated until later on.

http://nycentric.com/backup/New%20Folder/delta-ife.jpg

The flight filled up to capacity and at 6:00pm, now an hour and 10 minutes after our scheduled departure, we finally pushed back. It took a few back-and-forth maneuvers to move the plane away from the gate, which sits in a corner nestled by the terminal not far from the wingtip on the right and another occupied gate on the left, and finally we made it to the taxiway and turned right to enter the 13R takeoff queue.

As we were turning, I saw the longest line I'd ever seen...at least 40 planes ahead of us, with more being allowed to cut in from Terminal 1 and beyond. Soon the captain, in a not-so-thrilled-tone, announced that we would indeed be facing a significant delay due to the long line, but that there was an hour of taxi time built into the schedule so we would not be late arriving at LAS. How this would be possible when we had already pushed back an hour late is beyond me.

http://nycentric.com/backup/New%20Folder/jfk-takeoff-line-20070824.jpg
Uggh.

About 10 minutes later after not having moved an inch, the captain spoke to us again with more ominous news: due to weather, they might be flipping the airport to a new runway configuration, in which case we would be facing a serious delay as all the planes in front of us would have to turn around and head to the other end of the airport, cutting in front of us even though we were closer to the new takeoff runway. Sure enough, a couple minutes later he confirmed this was happening, but he said that we might be able to cut a few planes since we were so close. We turned around and began rolling towards 22R. And then we found a resting spot and sat. And sat. And sat. We didn't cut any planes...all those heavies at the other end of the airport had to meander all the way from the southwest end to the northeast end of the airport in front of us. In the meantime the flight attendants ordered us to stay seated, but did hand out bottled water. I watched TV and played the IFE trivia game, which pits you against other passengers. Despite many of the questions clearly having been copied from a mid-90s British version of Trivial Pursuit, I kicked some arse.

http://nycentric.com/backup/New%20Folder/term-1-heavies-20070804.jpg
Terminal 1.

http://nycentric.com/backup/New%20Folder/af-777-20070824.jpg
Bored.

We finally made it to the active at 7:50pm, a full 3 hours late. With the IFE and the the captain's honesty about how bad it was going to be, it wasn't unbearable. My friends on a later flight experienced a similar delay except their ex-Song bird's A/C was broken, causing extensive misery during their time sitting on the tarmac.

The flight was smooth, but we did see extensive lightning to the north. We actually corrected course a few times to avoid storms associated with a massive nasty front that caused severe flooding in the Midwest and stretched from central Pennsylvania (which caused the JFK runway flip) through Nebraska. Speaking of Colorado, I was disappointed that because of the delay, the Rockies and all the other beautiful landscape out west ó one of my favorite parts of flying out there ó would be under darkness. Since I'd be flying the redeye back east, I knew I wouldn't see them at all. :(

http://nycentric.com/backup/New%20Folder/delta-snack.jpg

IFE was fun and I would say a deciding factor on what airline I choose. Unfortunately my headphone jack was loose and played stereo intermittently, and eventually didn't work at all unless I held it in a particular and uncomfortable position. The trivia game was fun and it was free. I sprung $5 to play poker (other games are included as well, but were mostly boring) but the poker game refused to load. I am still awaiting my refund.

We touched down nicely on runway 25L and taxied to the gate. After trudging to the baggage claim area, which is literally about a mile away via foot and a shuttle train, we waited about 10 mins at our carousel before the digital screen changed to "Please pick up your bags at carou..." Yes, the end with the # was cut off. Awesome. Thankfully I saw the display on the next carousel had changed to our flight. We waited another 20 minutes before finally capturing our bags and headed to the 15 minute long taxi line and about 25 minutes later we were in our hotel room.

http://nycentric.com/backup/New%20Folder/vegaswelcome.jpg

Date: Monday, August 27
Route: Las Vegas McCarren International Airport (LAS)-John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK)
Airline: Delta Air Lines
Flight: 422
Aircraft Type: Boeing 757-200
Aircraft Registration: N634DL
Scheduled Departure Time: 11:30pm
Actual Departure Time: 11:45pm
Scheduled Arrival Time: 7:18am
Actual Arrival Time: 7:05am

After handing over enough cash to the local casinos, it was time to head home. Actually not home yet, I would be going straight to work from JFK after landing. Yay! My sleep maximization plan for the shorter eastbound flight: two Excedrin PM's taken on the way to the airport, fall asleep as soon as you get to your seat, and wake up in New York with about 4 hours of sleep under your belt. Turned out this worked just about perfectly.

We checked in at a nearly deserted Delta ticket counter, which made me After maneuvering through the airport, which included a walk through a non-operating TSA "puffer" machine, we got to the gate with about 20 mins before our boarding time. We ended up boarding about 10 minutes late, when the Excedrin PM was really starting to knock me out. As soon as they called Zone 4 I jetted, leaving my Zone 5 friends who were in other rows in the dust so I could get some Z's. This plane had no IFE, but I didn't care because my objective was sleeping. I sat in seat 40A and passed out. I woke up briefly as we throttled up to takeoff thrust, and then zonked out again, not to wake up again until the sun started to creep through the shade over eastern Pennsylvania.

We landed a few minutes early but had to wait for a gate. The gate we were assigned was a tow-in gate, which meant an extra couple of minutes of waiting. But we did get off the plane just about on time. Delta's dark cramped JFK baggage claim isn't the most fun place to be at 7:30am, and after about 25 mins my bag was one of the last to come around on the carousel, which made me quite annoyed.

http://nycentric.com/backup/New%20Folder/dl757jfk-20070828.jpg
Good morning, JFK!

But the trip was over. Great success!

AirtrafficController
09-22-2007, 04:47 PM
Another Great trip report. Continue the good work.

PhilDernerJr
09-22-2007, 04:50 PM
Great report, man. Nice to hear the DL IFE is fun. I'm dying to play games against other pax!

Thanks for sharing!

Alex T
09-22-2007, 04:54 PM
Great Report!

That is a MASSIVE delay indeed. But expected I guess of JFK and all.

Good pictures man.

I would love to try Delta out sometimes later.

Alex

T-Bird76
09-22-2007, 04:57 PM
Good report Matt, Looks like you made up some time in flight. You didn't mention what that "Enjoy" Package was? Was that a buy on board meal? I still won't fly Delta though, allot of what we're seeing with them is window dressing. Under the new look is the same old crap carrier with the same problems they've had for years.

Matt Molnar
09-22-2007, 05:29 PM
Oops, forgot that part. Biz class got dinner, but we got the "Enjoy" package, a free snack box containing crackers, cheese spread (which was actually DELICIOUS), cookies, raisins. They didn't offer any buy-on-board options. :(

I also had a $5 Mile-High Mojito which was quite good.

T-Bird76
09-22-2007, 05:30 PM
Oops, forgot that part. Biz class got dinner, but we got the "Enjoy" package, a free snack box containing crackers, cheese spread (which was actually DELICIOUS), cookies, raisins. They didn't offer any buy-on-board options. :(

I also had a $5 Mile-High Mojito which was quite good.

They didn't offer buy on board? That's strange they should have, I guess you were lucky to get the crackers.. Well its Delta so can't expect to much.

PhilDernerJr
09-22-2007, 06:02 PM
I'm sorry if this takes the thread off topic, but if "window dressing" is honest pilots, tv/video game IFE, and good snacks with drinks is just "window dressing" then I sure love window dressing.

FlyNavy
09-22-2007, 06:57 PM
Glad you enjoyed your flight and thanks for the report. The "Enjoy" package is the snack packs Delta offers in coach. Delta is adopting buy-on-board food shortly. The Mile High Mojito is one of my favorites. The new Delta product is superb and speaks for itself.

Feel free to fly Southwest, eat peanuts, and enjoy the wonders of XM radio in your 4,000 transcon. :borat:

One problem Delta doesn't have is labor headaches, and she runs circles around carriers that do have them.

hiss srq
09-22-2007, 07:06 PM
The mile high mojito is indeed a lovely choice. They also have Fresca beleive it or not too! And Tommy, the Delta bashing you speak of is intresting becausde on WN the service is minimal with nop F/C or IFE. Delta to me is millions of miles ahead of WN and many other carriers.

JetBlueAirwaysFan
09-23-2007, 11:18 AM
I will agree, I flew DL from DAB-ATL-YVR this past summer and got the same snack pack. That cheese spread is good.

Was your aircraft on the JFK-LAS leg painted in Song colors, or just had the IFE, so you could obviously tell?

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 08:09 AM
To be a bit harsh...Ryan, Chris and Phil not one of you travel enough as revenue passenger to be in touch with the needs and wants of frequent flyers, Ryan based on what I've been reading from you lately you really have no clue. Delta's offerings are great for the family who's traveling once a year on their Disney Vacation but doesn't answer the needs of the high yield customer. Delta is still rated as one of the worst Domestic airlines for on-time performance, baggage handling, ground facilities, and premium services. IFE, good snacks and drinks don't mean squat to the traveler who steps on a plane every week for business.

Delta also still has a long term fiscal problem to contend with as they need to renew their entire fleet, build new terminals around the country, and upgrade their current fleet. They've been putting the cart before the horse for the past year with their continued International expansion using old product. Delta's orders for new 777s pale in comparison with what their competitors have on order or all ready in service.

Their rebranding was met with much negative reaction from people like Mike Boyd who ripped on Delta for not fixing their core problems before coming out with the "New Delta." If IFE was so important answer me this. Why are American, United, and Southwest the three largest airlines in the country? All three don't come close with their in-flight offerings. Why are they the biggest??Better customer service, newer equipment, newer more modern ground facilities, better Frequent Flyer Programs, and better alliances. You may think cute little snacks, trivia against passengers (when it works) and snazzy titles to drinks is the solution to a great airline but for the frequent flyer community it isn't. You can take a peice of **** and wrap it in fancy wrapping paper but once you unwrap it...its still ****.

FlyNavy
09-24-2007, 10:18 AM
New terminals around the country? Like where - JFK? An annoucement about the JFK terminal situation is imminent and it just as much Delta's problem as it is New York City's. I agree with you - the facility there is extremely dated and something needs to be done to modernize it and/or replace it. If we're comparing apples to apple's here, have you flown out of United's LAX facility recently, or IAD perhaps?!

The ATL facility - in my opinion - looks great following the rennovations completed within the last years and I find it to be one of the best airports I've ever transited through or originated from. In fact, most of my travel over the years has been via Atlanta's runways. Construction for the new international terminal is already underway. CVG's facility is perfect for the current operation, SLC is kosher and LAX is one of my favorite Delta stations, as is MCO.

Fleet renewal? American's average fleet age based on the latest data is 14.4 years, United's - 13.1, and Delta's - 13.5, so I'm not understanding your reasoning there. If you ask me, all of the major carriers have work to do in this department and will all do so very soon. The 787 hasn't been ordered by ANY of them and is the logical choice for 757/767 replacement.

EVERYTHING relating to expansion at Delta depends on the China route announcement.

And, what's so dated about the international product anyway?

Wanna take this outside?! I'll see YOU on Thursday, buddy. :mrgreen:

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 11:29 AM
New terminals around the country? Like where - JFK? An annoucement about the JFK terminal situation is imminent and it just as much Delta's problem as it is New York City's. I agree with you - the facility there is extremely dated and something needs to be done to modernize it and/or replace it. If we're comparing apples to apple's here, have you flown out of United's LAX facility recently, or IAD perhaps?!

The ATL facility - in my opinion - looks great following the rennovations completed within the last years and I find it to be one of the best airports I've ever transited through or originated from. In fact, most of my travel over the years has been via Atlanta's runways. Construction for the new international terminal is already underway. CVG's facility is perfect for the current operation, SLC is kosher and LAX is one of my favorite Delta stations, as is MCO.

Fleet renewal? American's average fleet age based on the latest data is 14.4 years, United's - 13.1, and Delta's - 13.5, so I'm not understanding your reasoning there. If you ask me, all of the major carriers have work to do in this department and will all do so very soon. The 787 hasn't been ordered by ANY of them and is the logical choice for 757/767 replacement.

EVERYTHING relating to expansion at Delta depends on the China route announcement.

And, what's so dated about the international product anyway?

Wanna take this outside?! I'll see YOU on Thursday, buddy. :mrgreen:

Chris the reality is AAís DFW, JFK and ORD centers are far better facilities then DAL's Hub Terminals and IAD for UAL is a great terminal, its wide open, easy to navigate and hardly has any delays. As for UAL at DEN it speaks for itself, its prob the best hub in the country.. AA is far ahead of Delta in upgrading their domestic biz and first class product on the 767s and both AA and UAL have a far more modern long haul fleet comprised of 777s and 747's (UAL) As for Domestic, AA's MD-80s were all updated not that long ago and UAL's EcoPlus is a fantastic coach class option.

DAL's 767s are rat traps that don't even include the new overhead bins or new 777 style cabins. UAL's PS service is head over heels the best product going on the Transcon market. DAL is playing catch up right now, as I said there's a reason why AA and UAL are the largest, you don't become the largest by offering you're customer poor options.

Chris I'm speaking from a business traveler's point of view, I've racked up over 160,000 miles this year and experienced and tasted an entire variety of service (including DAL) and I've chosen One World and Star as my carriers of choice for a reason. I'm not saying ppl who chose DAL as their carrier of choice are wrong but you can't deny the numbers, more people choose to fly One World and Star over DAL and Skyteam, that's the fact. Now go play in you're simulator! hehe ;)

FlyNavy
09-24-2007, 12:16 PM
I didn't find any rats in my recent 767 flights. The 767-400ER is actually an awesome ride, especially with the new interior modifications.

I did notice, though, that you refrained from commenting on United decrepid LAX terminal. How convenient. :-)

Either way, this is a thread about Delta. No one cares about United or American here.

Enjoy your peanuts on Southwest. I'll enjoy my Mile High Mojito. :P

Now scram, Delta hater!

JetBlueAirwaysFan
09-24-2007, 12:47 PM
The only thing I don't like about DL is their RJs. I prefer mainline Delta over Delta Connection. Where I live, DL used to be completely mainline, until June 1999, when they added RJs. Now its always a toss up on what you get. DL will sometimes have more mainline than RJ's, and other times they will be about equal. I miss having mainline only in DAB.
As for on time performance...I do feel that they have some issues with this, but who doesn't? I flew DL three times this year already and am flying them one more time before the end of the year. I only had a problem one time when it came to on time performance and one time when it came to losing baggage, totaling two times with baggage problems and I have been flying Delta since the early 1990's.
I think that most of the delays are not Delta's fault. They are ATC's. Delta really didn't think very clearly when they made a hub in ATL in my opinion. There is almost always something wrong in ATL weatherwise. Since I fly from DAB a lot, I go through ATL almost all the time (exception from a few times flying from MCO). But BWI also has those problems and I overnighted there once going from JAX-BWI-ISP. That was Southwest, which brings me back to the fact that all airlines are prone to delay. Now, if you fly from LGA, you will almost always be delayed no matter what airline, because they only use one runway for take off and the intersecting runway for landing. Take off lines at LGA have literally extended from the end of Runway 31 to the other end at Runway 13!! Just saying that it isn't always the airlines.

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 02:02 PM
I didn't find any rats in my recent 767 flights. The 767-400ER is actually an awesome ride, especially with the new interior modifications.

I did notice, though, that you refrained from commenting on United decrepid LAX terminal. How convenient. :-)

Either way, this is a thread about Delta. No one cares about United or American here.

Enjoy your peanuts on Southwest. I'll enjoy my Mile High Mojito. :P

Now scram, Delta hater!

No I simply forgot to mention UAL's LAX site which isn't all that great but one out of five isn't bad when you consider Delta's terminals... You won't find any rats per say on those 767s but you will find old worn stained seats with broken seat backs, busted tray tables, small overheads, and 1980s style F class seats.

As for caring about UAL and AA, plenty do care, they care about and enjoy the only true sleeper suite coast to coast, new biz class suites and Flagship first class domestic suites, adjustable headrests in coach, 777 style cabins with new more accommodating overheads, a frequent flyer program I can use on over 20 airlines, more clubs nationwide, bright clean new terminals, and more ticket options.

Oh on WN I'll also enjoy getting to my destination on-time, full size planes with full size storage, overall greater seat pitch, oh and you must have forgot....snack packs...yep WN gives you a snack pack on flights 2 hours or longer along with those peanuts and not just cheese and crackers. Oh lets not forget free blankets and pillows. Oh btw I'll also enjoy a number of cocktails on WN....and for FREE! See WN gives its Rapid Reward members who earn a free ticket drink coupons for free drinks, how much did that mile high cost you?

Chris I'm not a Delta hater but I recognize good service when I see it and Delta does not provide good service and you can sit here and defend them to you're blue in the face but in the end it comes down to who's earning my dollar and who's not and Delta isn't and no company today can afford to say "oh we can afford to lose one persons revenue" because they can't afford it. I use to fly jetBlue all the time but because of their downturn in customer service theyíve lost my business. You can call me what you like but when I have to be on the road I expect good service and value for my dollar. Iím loyal to certain airlines, hotel chains and car rental companies because theyíve earned my business while others have not.

PhilDernerJr
09-24-2007, 03:44 PM
Tommy,

No one ever said IFE was the be all and end all of a successful airline, as you implied we are. I also don't need to be a revenue passenger as much as you to know what I like. I can make my own opinions which might not always agree with Mike Boyd. Although usually they do.

I do think that if an airline that offered good IFE that really invested time and money in marketing and went up against AA or UA on their deep-rooted routes, that you'd see AA and UA modify their own IFE in some. That opinion, and it's honestly how I feel. I think that AA gets away with sardine-can MD-80s and little or no IFE because no one has the size, resources, or political backing to set up so many daily flights a day to try to compete....especially when there's other routes that are for the taking which are profitable without such competitive headaches. So, that comparison doesn't hold much water with me.

When I do fly, the most important thing to me is leg room, then food/drink options. With that, especially in Matt's heavy delay situation, the IFE makes a huge difference for me in terms of how angry I DON'T become because I'm distracted and noit thinking about the annoying situation I'm in....regardless of whether or not the delay is the airline's fault.

Your revenue miles doesn't make my airline preferences any more valid than mine. Your preferences will be different from the person next to you.

Also, whether passengers enjoyt the flight or not, airlines pass and fail based on theeconomics of it all. You seem to be talking about business strategy in an airline's failure rather than what pax enjoy better. I've nevfer heard a passenger make flying decisions because an airtline did or didn't have better overhead cabins.

With that, as you yourself say, IFE "don't mean squat to the traveler who steps on a plane every week for business." There are other kinds of passengers who have different needs and wants that are not yours...whifch isd why business is in a separate, smaller, cabin. One can also say that you are not in touch with the needs of an average economy vacation traveller.

RDU-JFK
09-24-2007, 03:47 PM
Very well said, Phil.

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 04:44 PM
No one ever said IFE was the be all and end all of a successful airline, as you implied we are. I also don't need to be a revenue passenger as much as you to know what I like. I can make my own opinions which might not always agree with Mike Boyd. Although usually they do.

Phil you implied it very clearly in you're first response to me. You clearly said that I thought window dressing was IFE and snacks. You clearly said without any other example that you enjoyed IFE and snacks on a plane. That's a blanket statement, you never said what you thought made a good airline.


I do think that if an airline that offered good IFE that really invested time and money in marketing and went up against AA or UA on their deep-rooted routes, that you'd see AA and UA modify their own IFE in some. That opinion, and it's honestly how I feel. I think that AA gets away with sardine-can MD-80s and little or no IFE because no one has the size, resources, or political backing to set up so many daily flights a day to try to compete....especially when there's other routes that are for the taking which are profitable without such competitive headaches. So, that comparison doesn't hold much water with me.

Phil you don't think DAL has the money, time and political backing to compete with AA? Letís get serious Phil, DAL is multibillion dollar a year company just like AA and UAL, they have the money, time and political backing to compete with AA and UAL, and how they choose to invest is one thing. DAL choose not to invest in their long haul fleet but decided to invest in expanding Comair, and ASA, it was the wrong move as witnessed today by the draw down in CRJ's and ERJ's because they aren't economically viable as they use to be. As for competitive headaches....no one ever said competition was easy.


When I do fly, the most important thing to me is leg room, then food/drink options. With that, especially in Matt's heavy delay situation, the IFE makes a huge difference for me in terms of how angry I DON'T become because I'm distracted and not thinking about the annoying situation I'm in....regardless of whether or not the delay is the airline's fault.

IMO itís pretty immature to even get angry in a delay situation like that... How did people pass the time before IFE? I don't recall reading about the many riots that took place before IFE? Infact there's more air rage now then before IFE. For you IFE might make a difference but overall there's not proof its helps people stay calmer.


Your revenue miles doesn't make my airline preferences any more valid than mine. Your preferences will be different from the person next to you.

I'm not sure what this means...? I'm pointing out why I don't like Delta using valid examples based on my experience in response to you're post and Chris's. No where did I say YOU have to not fly Delta, I could careless what airline you fly. Chris's example are biased based on his employment at Delta. I'm sure his opinion would be slanted towards AA, UAL, US or F9 if he worked for one of them. I'm speaking from a business travelerís standpoint, and yes I'm dam snobby when it comes to travel but you know what I have the right to be. When my company is spending tens of thousands of dollars a year and asking me to be away from home the airlines, hotels and car rental company dam well better earn my business and roll the red carpet out when I walk in. Fact is Delta didn't do that and just to mention US for a min. US just lost my ENTIRE company's preferred airline status because of what they are doing.


Also, whether passengers enjoy the flight or not, airlines pass and fail based on the economics of it all. You seem to be talking about business strategy in an airline's failure rather than what pax enjoy better. I've never heard a passenger make flying decisions because an airline did or didn't have better overhead cabins.

Phil I'm not even sure how to answer the overhead statement....you've never heard? Bro let tell you when I was out at Boeing one of the key designs of the 787 cabin was overhead bin space and the ability to fit three 24 inch rollers in the overhead. Overhead bin space for any frequent flyer is a HUGE demand. A major upgrade to AA's planes was the installation of the extra large overhead to accommodate 24 inch rollers, this was in response to consumer demand.

Phil and airline isn't any different then other business whether they fail or not. Why do you think Delta went into Chap 11? It was combination of piss poor management and bad decision that overall affected the consumer and drove the consumer away.


With that, as you yourself say, IFE "don't mean squat to the traveler who steps on a plane every week for business." There are other kinds of passengers who have different needs and wants that are not yours...which is why business is in a separate, smaller, cabin. One can also say that you are not in touch with the needs of an average economy vacation traveler.

Phil did you read all my posts? I clearly said IFE is great for the family making their once a year vacation trip to Disney. Trust me I know what the average vacation traveler wants but the average vacation traveler doesn't add much of anything to the bottom line of an airline. Its the business traveler who is buying fully refundable tickets either in advance or at the last min who is driving the airlines bottom line, those are the customers the airlines need to cater to first. You can even ask Art from ISP. Art did fly US all the time but because US is shunning the business traveler he pulled his business, Art travels as much if not more then I do? Again do the numbers can US afford to lose Art? No they can't.

I'm entitled to voicing my opinion on DAL, however no where I said "YOU MUST NOT FLY THEM." If someone asks me "should I fly Delta or AA?" I'd tell them fly AA for the very same reasons I've stated in this thread. Now I'll recap why I feel AA and UAL are far better carriers then DAL.

AA
-Larger route network (has nothing to do with politics)
-Newer cleaner coach cabins.
-New Biz class product.
-New Flagship suites.
-Newer terminals
-More clubs
-More code shares
-Better global alliance
-Better frequent flyer program

UAL
-PS service to LAX/SFO
-True lay flat suite to LAX/SFO
-EcoPlus (few bucks gets you lots of leg room)
-Better Hubs
-More club access with the US codeshare and Star Alliance
-Outstanding buy on board program
-Star Alliance code share

WN
-Low fares.
-Great Frequent flyer program.
-Free drinks.
-More leg room then AA or DAL.
-New modern terminals in almost all major connecting cities, example BWI.
-No black out dates for free travel.
-They are simple and easy (new boarding program I'm 50/50 but we'll see.)

Why I don't fly DAL

-Poor New York terminals, the worst in the nation IMO.
-Most aircraft haven't been updated with new cabins in a decade.
-F class domestic product is over a decade old.
-I have to check my roller because it doesn't fit on most of DAL's planes.
-One of the worst baggage problems in the industry.
-ATL is hell to connect in, its simple to big and lacks the same retail and food services as DFW, ORD, IAD, DEN, BWI, and SFO.
-Frequent flyer program is nothing more then a bad joke.
-Upgrades...? What upgrades.

Phil my examples are based off of real life experience as a person who travels for work over 160,000 miles a year. I know you traveled a lot this year to but we are apples and oranges. Iím on the other side of the ticket counter and youíre not, itís not the same thing. Iíd consider myself having a good pulse on the likes and dislikes of todayís frequent traveler. Whether you want to take my experience seriously or not is youíre choice but Chris is trying minimizing my examples of Delta when the fact is theyíre true. Delta didnít declare Chap 11 because they wanted to, they had to. Delta maybe starting to improve its customer service with all these nice onboard things but if you canít deliver on getting youíre passenger to their destinations on time with their bags then all the window dressing in the world wonít help them.

Just a disclaimer to all, none of what Phil and I post are attacks on each other on a personal level, both of us are good friends and enjoy a heated debate or competition, you should see us when we play pool, which btw Phil has been a long timeÖhehe.

PhilDernerJr
09-24-2007, 06:23 PM
Tommy, I think you are missing my point completely. However, allow me to respond to some points of yours.



Phil you don't think DAL has the money, time and political backing to compete with AA? Letís get serious Phil, DAL is multibillion dollar a year company just like AA and UAL, they have the money, time and political backing to compete with AA and UAL, and how they choose to invest is one thing. DAL choose not to invest in their long haul fleet but decided to invest in expanding Comair, and ASA, it was the wrong move as witnessed today by the draw down in CRJ's and ERJ's because they aren't economically viable as they use to be. As for competitive headaches....no one ever said competition was easy.

No, I'm saying that AA and UA are so saturated in their own markets, and that there are enough markets out there for everyone, that DL and other airlines don't need to go head to head with them So, AA and UA fly virtually uncontested on certain major routes without various features that people do enjoy. AA monopolizes certain markets because they own certain routes...not because people like them. $1,500 from LGA-DFW two weeks prior to the flight.....sound familiar anyone? (actual quote from today)


Why do you think Delta went into Chap 11? It was combination of piss poor management and bad decision that overall affected the consumer and drove the consumer away.

I disagree. Sure, several airlines that went into bankruptcy were ****ty, but the downturn of the economy and 9/11 also swallowed up airlines that didn't necessarily have it coming. Everyone was affected, even your saviors at UA. I see it as a city being flooded. Just because the buildings with 80 and 90 stories were spared doesn't mean that the 40-50 story ones that fell below the waterline were wimpy.

Look at the lengths that you're going to to prove that IFE is a waste. Again, all I said is that it makes me feel better, and why I like IFE. I've never seen a rebuttal to someone's preference before.

You seem to only talk about businessmen's preferences, as though their preferences matter over that of the general flying public, which, I could be wrong, outnumbers businessmen on flights, no? A LOT of people on planes are once or twice a year flyers. Take our nation's population of "once or twice a yearers" and before you know it...a plane is full.

Most importantly, my first response to you said was that if you say the IFE and drinks is window dressing, then I like window dressing (put it on my salad!). I never said Delta was the greatest, nor did I criticise or attack your views on Delta. I just said that, what you tried to shoot down, I enjoy. You are the one that started your next reply by telling me that I didn't know the needs and wants of the public. I didn't even know we were debating anything!

All I'm saying is that IFE is enjoyed by many. You seemed to try to be upset because someone had a good time on Delta due to IFE and a few good drinks.


I'm pointing out why I don't like Delta...

No, you're not. Voicing your opinion would include a lot of "I prefer this," and "I've not enjoyed that," and not any "harsh" comments you "you this" or that. You're posts aggressively discredit others' opinions because you have 160k revenue miles and we don't. Sharing your own opinion does not include debating other people's. Big difference.


I also second Tommy's disclaimer about friendly debate. He's usually not so courageous when I have two working hands though. :wink:

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 07:19 PM
No, I'm saying that AA and UA are so saturated in their own markets, and that there are enough markets out there for everyone, that DL and other airlines don't need to go head to head with them So, AA and UA fly virtually uncontested on certain major routes without various features that people do enjoy. AA monopolizes certain markets because they own certain routes...not because people like them. $1,500 from LGA-DFW two weeks prior to the flight.....sound familiar anyone? (actual quote from today)

Uncontested Phil? Newsflash DAL had a HUB at DFW, guess what? It failed and not for any other reason then they didn't invest in the proper city pairs. DAL always looked at DFW as the bastard child, they wasted money for years on DFW until they finally were forced to close it. As for uncontested have you taken a look at ATL and many cities in the south? DAL is the only choice. AA and UAL go head to head against each other at ORD and LAX. Phil the airlines are a business, they are there to make money for the shareholder so you know what, when they can get away with charging $1500 LGA-DFW they are. Is it rightÖI donít know we live in a capital society, is it right we pay over $2.00 a gallon for gas? Prob not but we do and weíll pay $1500 LGA-DFW


I disagree. Sure, several airlines that went into bankruptcy were ****ty, but the downturn of the economy and 9/11 also swallowed up airlines that didn't necessarily have it coming. Everyone was affected, even your saviors at UA. I see it as a city being flooded. Just because the buildings with 80 and 90 stories were spared doesn't mean that the 40-50 story ones that fell below the waterline were wimpy.

Phil you disagree on what fact? The fact is DAL did not invest in a long haul product where other airlines did during the boom of the 90s. DAL's investment was in the 50 seat RJ. 2007 will see 1000 50 seat RJs be taken out of service because they've proved economically challenging to operate. DAL also didn't invest in capital infrastructure where others did, what did DAL doÖ? They started Delta Express, failed. DAL was heading towards Chap 11 whether or not 9/11 took place or not.

Where did that statement "your saviors" come from, sounds like youíre grabbing at things to prove a point and putting words in my mouth. I never said UAL was my savior, UAL's management almost drove them out of business worse then DAL. The one and only thing that kept UAL alive was their people. UAL has always been known for providing the outstanding customer service of the majors.


Look at the lengths that you're going to prove that IFE is a waste. Again, all I said is that it makes me feel better, and why I like IFE. I've never seen a rebuttal to someone's preference before.

Never said it was a waste, again putting words in my mouth, but its not what separates a good airline from a great airline. Let's use jetBlue as a good example, they play up free Direct TV, leather seats and legroom, and you know what they have awesome onboard service but have a ton of issues they are struggling with and could put them under. IFE didn't help stop people from being angry on Feb 14th of this year.


You seem to only talk about businessmen's preferences, as though their preferences matter over that of the general flying public, which, I could be wrong, outnumbers businessmen on flights, no? A LOT of people on planes are once or twice a year flyers. Take our nation's population of "once or twice a yearers" and before you know it...a plane is full.

Phil you seem to totally glance over the fact that who contributes the more profitable sales to the airline? Itís the business traveler so if you owned a business who would you cater to? The customer who's pays top dollar for you're product week after week or the customer who looks for the rock bottom fare once a year? Yes you want the tourist class passenger but you dam well better make sure you keep you're bread and butter happy. Most changes and upgrades are based off of what the most frequent travelers desire. That's Marketing 101.


You are the one that started your next reply by telling me that I didn't know the needs and wants of the public. I didn't even know we were debating anything!

You don't Phil, I'm sorry but based off you're overhead bin statement, you just don't.


All I'm saying is that IFE is enjoyed by many. You seemed to try to be upset because someone had a good time on Delta due to IFE and a few good drinks.

Phil you're really trying to throw words in my mouth. I made statement that Delta's onboard IFE and service is simple window dressing to a number of underlying problems. NOWHERE did I say I don't like IFE, but you totally missed my point that IFE is not Delta's answer to its problems, you made a comment that originally that makes my statement about Delta seem stupid so I think I have the right to come back and address it.


No, you're not. Voicing your opinion would include a lot of "I prefer this," and "I've not enjoyed that," and not any "harsh" comments you "you this" or that. You're posts aggressively discredit others' opinions because you have 160k revenue miles and we don't. Sharing your own opinion does not include debating other people's. Big difference.

Ah...debate is based on opinion and fact Phil. Chris's opinion is based on company pride, mine is based on real world experience. You know I believe my experience does make my opinion hold more water. As I said you donít have to agree, but if you went to get a car fixed whom would you listen to? The guy who just started at Jiffy Lube or a seasoned mechanic? btw Chris sorry for using you as a tennis ball.


He's usually not so courageous when I have two working hands though.

had to throw this in...summer 2006, Beach, who's face in the sand....hmmm you're wrap comes off when? ;)

PhilDernerJr
09-24-2007, 08:02 PM
...who contributes the more profitable sales to the airline?

Again, you're talking about business stats, I'm talking about passenger preference.


You don't Phil, I'm sorry but based off you're overhead bin statement, you just don't.

No one's debating who knows what. We were talking preference. No one was debating preference. You are telling us that our preferences are wrong.


Ah...debate is based on opinion and fact Phil.

The debate that didn't exist until you started telling people that what they enjoy is wrong? There wasn't a debate to begin with.

Still, I'm stating opinions. You're debating them. You don't see how that's backwards?

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 08:19 PM
Again, you're talking about business stats, I'm talking about passenger preference.

Phil you're serious right? An airline is a business there to make a profit... Passengers are stats Phil, some pay more some pay less, the ones who pay more add more to the bottom line.


The debate that didn't exist until you started telling people that what they enjoy is wrong? There wasn't a debate to begin with.

Still, I'm stating opinions. You're debating them. You don't see how that's backwards?

Ah no I stated an opinion that you made a comment on that downplayed my opinion? I didn't say you have to share my opinion but we must share yours? I don't agree with you're opinion am I not allowed to question your opinion?

PhilDernerJr
09-24-2007, 08:24 PM
Yes, that's right. People shouldn't question people's opinions like that. No one asked for a debate on your opinion. At least against my preference. I can only speak for myself.

Phil: "I like IFE."
Tommy: "What do you know?!?! You're wrong!!!"

That's what happened here.

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 08:31 PM
Yes, that's right. People shouldn't question people's opinions like that. No one asked for a debate on your opinion. At least against my preference. I can only speak for myself.

Phil: "I like IFE."
Tommy: "What do you know?!?! You're wrong!!!"

That's what happened here.

That's you're perception. I first stated Delta's IFE is window dressing to larger problems. I perceived you're statement as a blanket statement that IFE is a cure all which I responded to with facts and experience much like you are perceiving my opinions in you're own way.

PhilDernerJr
09-24-2007, 08:41 PM
That's you're perception.


I perceived you're statement as a blanket statement that IFE is a cure all which I responded to with facts and experience much like you are perceiving my opinions in you're own way.

So I said:


.... if "window dressing" is honest pilots, tv/video game IFE, and good snacks with drinks is just "window dressing" then I sure love window dressing.

Looks like I just said I like what you call window dressing.

As far as me thinking you attacked someone's opinion out of nowhere:


That's you're perception.

yet....


To be a bit harsh...Ryan, Chris and Phil not one of you travel enough as revenue passenger to be in touch with the needs and wants of frequent flyers....

Looks like an attack to me. Is there really any other perception of that?

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 09:03 PM
PM'd

FlyNavy
09-24-2007, 09:49 PM
TWA sucked, too. :-)

T-Bird76
09-24-2007, 10:07 PM
TWA sucked, too. :-)

Didn't I tell you to go play in you're sim! LOL Well I don't have blinders TWA didn't run their airline perfectly either. TWA's problems back to the 80s and were similar to what Delta is having now. TWA had an old fleet and Ichan didn't help TWA at all, he took the airline private and sucked over 400 mil in public funds from TWA, basically speaking TWA was starved of capital. The airline did make a turn around in the 90s but really was to late, the Kabu agreement sealed TWA's fate and the down turn in the economy right before 9/11 just forced TWA to sell to AA. Even if TWA was able to keep afloat 9/11 would have sunk them. Interestingly enough if TWA was able to make it to 2003 they would have been home free of many old debts and would have had the most modern fleet of any U.S airline today. There was even talk of TWA/FL or TWA/HP getting together, while the TWA/FL thing never came to pass TWA and HP did create a codeshare on all noncompeting routes.

Oh a little known fact in 1948 TWA personnel flew Delta planes from Cincinnati to Detroit; Delta crews fly TWA ships south to Atlanta, Miami and Dallas. So our two airlines have a bit of history together.

mirrodie
09-24-2007, 10:43 PM
:borat:


Errr, eh, I just wanted to say, NICE TRIP REPORT, MATT. :borat:

FlyNavy
09-24-2007, 10:53 PM
Tom, you were the one saying you were glad the TWA birds found homes at JFK again. So, I guess Delta couldn't be THAT bad. By the way, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution is reporting we have gained the route authority to PVG. Woot!

Delta will survive. And I think you should give them another chance. You just might be surprised (JFK T2/T3 aside).

FlyNavy
09-25-2007, 05:10 AM
Speaking of Delta's "dated" cabin, these are slated to be installed on Delta aircraft shortly.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/refleckt/dallfseat25Flr2Ejpg1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/refleckt/dallfseat35Flr2Ejpg1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/refleckt/dallfseat5Flr2Ejpg1.jpg

T-Bird76
09-25-2007, 07:49 AM
Tom, you were the one saying you were glad the TWA birds found homes at JFK again. So, I guess Delta couldn't be THAT bad. By the way, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution is reporting we have gained the route authority to PVG. Woot!

Delta will survive. And I think you should give them another chance. You just might be surprised (JFK T2/T3 aside).

From a personal standpoint I would try them again but from a business standpoint we have perferred airlines that my company uses and right now American is our perferred global carrier. I manage to fly WN because I can make a case for saving money by leaving out of ISP, generally the fare is lower but I don't need a limo to take me there or pay 30 bucks a day at LGA and JFK so I save the company about 100 bucks plus by using ISP.

NIKV69
09-25-2007, 11:37 AM
Matt good trip report. Due to the fact that WN fares were too high I am flying DL LAS-JFK-LAS to get home for X-Mas and your report was helpful.

Tommy, everyone here is aware of your travel miles and the fact that you benefit from the awards from them without having to pay for the flights. There are some here who don't need the frills you want just because you are on a plane more often than someone like Phil. I come from a family where we flew EAL first class all over the place and loved it but now just a comfortable seat, decent FA and a safe flight and I am happy. I don't need a pillow or a blanket or an upgrade or free drink coupons to be happy or care that the airline I am flying just came out of Chapter 11. I am not the biggest fan of Delta but I will go into my flight in Dec with an open mind and give them a chance.

T-Bird76
09-25-2007, 12:17 PM
Matt good trip report. Due to the fact that WN fares were too high I am flying DL LAS-JFK-LAS to get home for X-Mas and I your report was helpful.

Tommy, everyone here is aware of your travel miles and the fact that you benefit from the awards from them without having to pay for the flights. There are some here who don't need the frills you want just because you are on a plane more often than someone like Phil. I come from a family where we flew EAL first class all over the place and loved it but now just a comfortable seat, decent FA and a safe flight and I am happy. I don't need a pillow or a blanket or an upgrade or free drink coupons to be happy or care that the airline I am flying just came out of Chapter 11. I am not the biggest fan of Delta but I will go into my flight in Dec with an open mind and give them a chance.

Nick just don't forget to tip the FA.

Mellyrose
09-25-2007, 08:39 PM
...just because you are on a plane more often than someone like Phil.

I actually think Phil's been on a plane more than anyone on the boards this year...just not as a revenue passenger. If we exclude Tommy's miles, I bet Phil's flown more miles in 2007 than every member put together!!!

(just to clarify, I'm not trying to make you wrong Nick...just pointing out that maybe Phil wasn't the best example considering he's called a 757/767 his home for a good percentage of the year ;))

NIKV69
09-26-2007, 06:10 AM
I actually think Phil's been on a plane more than anyone on the boards this year...just not as a revenue passenger. If we exclude Tommy's miles, I bet Phil's flown more miles in 2007 than every member put together!!!

(just to clarify, I'm not trying to make you wrong Nick...just pointing out that maybe Phil wasn't the best example considering he's called a 757/767 his home for a good percentage of the year )




We know Mel but I think the point Tommy was trying to make was the he has flown more miles as a business passenger and was not just along for the ride as an employee and was judging the service in addition to the fact he has flown more different carriers than Phil.


Nick just don't forget to tip the FA.



Tommy you better throw them a duece next time you redeem one of your drink coupons!

Mellyrose
09-26-2007, 06:30 AM
That's why I said "just not as a revenue passenger."

PhilDernerJr
09-26-2007, 09:52 AM
Ok, let's move on from me please. :shock:

mirrodie
09-26-2007, 10:04 AM
THANK G-D :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat: :borat:


This was a thread about a trip. geez....

NIKV69
09-27-2007, 08:58 AM
Actually beginning with Tommy's post about me tipping FAs and working down is all http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/905683/ot.gif

So I will paste my last reply that was on topic and we can continue.


Matt good trip report. Due to the fact that WN fares were too high I am flying DL LAS-JFK-LAS to get home for X-Mas and your report was helpful.

Tommy, everyone here is aware of your travel miles and the fact that you benefit from the awards from them without having to pay for the flights. There are some here who don't need the frills you want just because you are on a plane more often than someone like Phil. I come from a family where we flew EAL first class all over the place and loved it but now just a comfortable seat, decent FA and a safe flight and I am happy. I don't need a pillow or a blanket or an upgrade or free drink coupons to be happy or care that the airline I am flying just came out of Chapter 11. I am not the biggest fan of Delta but I will go into my flight in Dec with an open mind and give them a chance.