American Airlines pilot penalized for sticker on plane

[emshighway]

The Associated Press

FORT WORTH, Texas -- An American Airlines pilot has been docked a month of pay for pasting a small sticker that was critical of executive bonuses on his plane's exterior.

The pilot based at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport was frustrated by comments made by Jeff Brundage, the company's vice president of human resources, according to officials with its pilots' union.

After an investigation into the May incident, the Fort Worth-based airline recently decided to suspend the pilot without pay for 30 days, a penalty worth about $12,000. The pilot's name was not released.

Michael Leone, an American pilot who is vice-chairman of the DFW chapter of the Allied Pilots Association, said the punishment is extreme, especially since the pilot apologized and said it would not happen again.

"No reasonable person would even consider placing such a financial hardship on one of our pilots and their families" for a minor infraction of company policy, Leone told union members in a memo. "The punishment clearly does not fit the crime."

Sue Gordon, an American spokeswoman, said the carrier typically does not comment on individual employee matters but said it followed normal procedures. The sticker was a violation of Federal Aviation Administration rules, according to the airline. The sticker's message was not known.

The union has asked members to donate to a fund on behalf of the pilot and so far has raised $1,100.

It was unclear which comments from Brundage upset the pilot. But many employees were angry when Brundage told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram that "if they want to make what executives make, then they need to become executives." Those comments came after pilots marched at the airline's headquarters in April.

The case is the latest flare-up between American's management and employees over the bonuses, which paid about $160 million in company stock to about 800 top executives and managers in April. Employees have complained that they continue to work under reduced wages and benefits.

Hundreds of American employees protested the bonuses three months ago by marching at the company's headquarters and at airports nationwide.

Last week, AMR Corp., American's parent, reported a $317 million profit in the second quarter.

[PhilDernerJr]

"No reasonable person would even consider placing such a financial hardship on one of our pilots and their families" for a minor infraction of company policy, Leone told union members in a memo.

At 12,000 a month, the means the pilot makes $144,000 a year.

If you make that much and losing 12k of it creates that much of a hardship, then the pilots' union should really offer their members some financial counseling.

My heart bleeds.

Placing unauthorized stickers on the exterior of planes actually can create a serious safety hazard as well.

Vandalizing work equipment....this guy is lucky to still have his job.

[stuart schechter]

edit:gone

[hiss srq]

Sticker falls off from force of air passing the plane, sucks into engine. KABOOM!! IF he were to put a sticker somewhere, DONT put it where your customers can get hurt.
Not likely nor relevant. In all likelyhood the decal would not do major damage to the engine depending on how big it is. Now the real issue is that he placed it there witout company approval. I am 50/50 on this one. I have views I will not discuss here with regards to AA management back in the heartland but none the less he did what he did. Now as far as I am concerned the punishment is far too over the top for my likeing. It is a slap in the face to the employee group as a whole and shows where AA priority is. I am going to stop right there though because I feel an angered rant coming.

[USAF Pilot 07]

Disagreeing with company management and their decisions is no reason nor is it justification to "vandalize" one of their planes, or to use their equipment as a personal soapbox.

This pilot is lucky he wasn't canned, and should be counting his blessings. If he's sooo unhappy about executives making hefty bonuses, then he should either become an executive or find a job flying elsewhere....

[hiss srq]

Easy enough said by someone who is not the airline pilot or airline employee.

[PhilDernerJr]

What would that have to do with anything? What he did was ILLEGAL. You seriously think it's justified in the airline world?

[hiss srq]

No, I did not justify his actions Phil, and I did admit it is illegal. My point is some people are indiffrent to airline employees and the fact that they constantly get the blunt end of the broom stick. If the public had a better idea about this industry it would certainly help. I love this business and would be in none other but some of the things going on in this business and in particular at that airline are boarderline robbery. I am sure a nice write up would hav e suited well but since you dragged me into it. What AA did was intentional in my personal opinion. They will not give what is owed to employees theirs yet the upper management which in my opinion is overbloated and indiffrent to the industry past that they can afford the BMW they drive as long as Ch. 11 is not in their credit history at the airline. To take 12,000 dollars from a guy who is already getting the shaft of pay from an airline that can financially treat people who have earned their job top to bottom is absurd. Yet the upper idiots can take these bonuses and sleep at night. They do not do the work. The ones in the uniform do. The ones in the uniform put up with the people, irregular hours, constant disrespect, adverse situations, risk of death at work etc etc etc EVERY DAY! They need to be taken care of. So what the pilot did should not have been done but what management did as a respeonse was out of line. Let me stop myself now. So while they continue to rob the people who actually do the work in this business there kids can eat, get a good education, and live comfortably. This man will now have to worry about that, bills etc etc for the next month. Heres to ALPA!

[PhilDernerJr]

I don't understand what you mean when you say what AA did was intentional? What was intentional? Penalizing him?

how is he getting the shaft?

Can you also explain more about the "blunt end of the broom stick"? I don't see where airline pilots are tragic victims of anything.

You also blasted Clark about not being in the airline industry, even though he's an Air Force Academy grad, and you're not even a pilot yourself.

[Midnight Mike]

The airplane does not belong to the pilot, so, the pilot had no right to paste the sticker.

As for the penalty, maybe it was overboard, but, that is up to the company.

What the pilot did was stupid & unprofessional & should know better.

[hiss srq]

Intentianal. He was protesting the bonuses and over the top pay of execs and therefore he looses pay. A write up was ample enough. And Phil, airline pilots in my opinon earned where they got to and thus should be payed accordingly. They have the same amount if not more education than you average airline executive. Airline pilots and airline employees in general are victims of a rip off management style in this business currently prevadeing through it. I do not buy it. Look at airlines like Mesa or Big Sky. You spend 80+ on college plus another roughly 75 on flight school etc etc and than you barely break 20 grand for a few years. Nonsense. it should be more like 40+ and a continued climb of pay over a certian period of years. ALPA and other airline unions need to buck up and get it together. In past I used to be anti union untill I saw what unions were acutally there for in this business. Here is a time where the unions need to come to work.

[USAF Pilot 07]

Easy enough said by someone who is not the airline pilot or airline employee.

No... but I DO know that just because I may disagree with some of the decisions my "boss" (the Commander-in-Chief) has made, doesn't give me the right to go around and start sticking "F**k Bush" stickers on government property and the like.... (not that I would do that or want to do that anyway)...

Seems like this pilot has no problem taking $144,000 a year from his company, probably far more than what many of HIS peers make, but maybe it's just not enough for HIM... No one forced HIM to take a job with AA, just like no one forced anybody else working at an airline to work there... If it was so bad he should have just quit.

[PhilDernerJr]

Intentianal. He was protesting the bonuses and over the top pay of execs and therefore he looses pay. A write up was ample enough. And Phil, airline pilots in my opinon earned where they got to and thus should be payed accordingly.

Now, not to say that certain airline pilots don't go through a lot and that not all fall under this, but MANY pilots, especially with legacy airlines, pull well over 6 figures. How is that not fair? Their salaries match that of doctors who save lives and also went to school for nearly a decade.

This guy's $144k salary was, as I understand, if he flew his MINIMUM hours. Imagine if he had a BUSY month.

Medical interns also often don't make too much. But there's this thing called having a PASSION for what you do. It's called sacrifice. Just because they tough it out for a couple years making in the 20k or 30k range doesn't gather up enough pity from me to warrant 200k and 300k salaries.

I also added another line in my previous post about the Clark reference. Not sure if you started replying after I posted it.

[USAF Pilot 07]

They will not give what is owed to employees theirs yet the upper management which in my opinion is overbloated and indiffrent to the industry past that they can afford the BMW they drive as long as Ch. 11 is not in their credit history at the airline. To take 12,000 dollars from a guy who is already getting the shaft of pay from an airline that can financially treat people who have earned their job top to bottom is absurd. Yet the upper idiots can take these bonuses and sleep at night. They do not do the work. The ones in the uniform do. The ones in the uniform put up with the people, irregular hours, constant disrespect, adverse situations, risk of death at work etc etc etc EVERY DAY! They need to be taken care of.


This is the case with society though, not just the airline industry. As an example, in the Air Force, and probably the other services, it is the enlisted force that runs the show and that keeps the mission going. Yet, our enlisted force, especially the younger enlisted force, who are the ones out there working swing-shifts turning wrenches, cleaning fuel-tanks and the doing the manual "dirty" jobs, are grossly underpaid. It is because most of them love their jobs, and love being part of an organization (which many times becomes like a 2nd family) that they stay with the job, and without them, we couldn't function.

Take a look at most other industries like construction, city agencies, hell even ConEd, and you'll find that those doing the "manual" labor, keeping the day-to-day operations running smoothly, are the ones who make the least amount of money, yet without them, there would be complete failure.
What many of these people fail to realize, though, is that most of "corporate management" not only have a four-year bachelor's degree (generally from well respected and university) but usually a master's degree and sometimes even a PhD. These aren't easy, nor are they cheap, feats to achieve.

[T-Bird76]

Ryan he was defacing company property and in most companies that would result in termination, so he got off easy as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of what the labor issues are going on at AA, the flight crew has NO right to display or voice their opinion while they are working. On my last transcon flight with AA the FA's were complaining about management to passengers. Let them picket, protest or w/e but when they are on duty they should perform up the standards the airline has set forth, its as simple as that. His punishment is just and you have no argument to the contrary.


I am sure a nice write up would have e suited well but since you dragged me into it. What AA did was intentional in my personal opinion. They will not give what is owed to employees theirs yet the upper management which in my opinion is over bloated and indifferent to the industry past that they can afford the BMW they drive as long as Ch. 11 is not in their credit history at the airline.

Ryan AA's management kept AA out of Chap 11, didn't dump the pensions, and saved the airline. You can't say that about US, UAL, NW, or Delta.


To take 12,000 dollars from a guy who is already getting the shaft of pay from an airline that can financially treat people who have earned their job top to bottom is absurd.

He makes over 100,000 a year...how on earth is he getting the shaft? To bad he won't be able to afford a couple extra luxuries this year.


Yet the upper idiots can take these bonuses and sleep at night. They do not do the work. The ones in the uniform do. The ones in the uniform put up with the people, irregular hours, constant disrespect, adverse situations, risk of death at work etc etc etc EVERY DAY!

Are you serious with this statement? The upper management doesn’t work? Would you like Arpey to go load planes? Guess what?? That's not his job! His job is to plan and execute the long-term strategic plan of American Airlines. Without upper management directing lower management you don't have an airline. The bonuses at AA were agreements that if AA returned a certain value to the stockholders they would be bonuses. You may not realize it but the number one priority for any public company is to ensure a return to the shareholders. Without the shareholders again you have no airline.



They need to be taken care of. So what the pilot did should not have been done but what management did as a response was out of line. Let me stop myself now. So while they continue to rob the people who actually do the work in this business there kids can eat, get a good education, and live comfortably. This man will now have to worry about that, bills etc etc for the next month. Heres to ALPA!

Again he makes over 100,000 grand a year, I'm sure if he's smart he has enough savings for a rainy day, and if he doesn't oh well should have thought twice.

[Informant]

This pilot is lucky he wasn't canned, and should be counting his blessings. If he's sooo unhappy about executives making hefty bonuses, then he should either become an executive or find a job flying elsewhere....
Find a job flying elsewhere? Straight-up Ignorance.
Who would give up years of seniority to go to a different airline?
And secondly become an executive?
Executives hop from company to company. You get a guy that was successful running a piping company and thinks he's fit to run an airline. They come for a few years and then leave.
Really just ignorance.

Ryan he was defacing company property and in most companies that would result in termination, so he got off easy as far as I'm concerned.
You obviously have never worked for a 121 airline-definitely not a pilot. If so you would see the 'tags' of different guys who got bored and decided to pencil in, their own insights...like here."If your a jerk everyone is going to know about it"
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9966/img1646hg4.jpg

Ryan AA's management kept AA out of Chap 11, didn't dump the pensions, and saved the airline. You can't say that about US, UAL, NW, or Delta.
You give him to much credit.I remember seeing memo's for guys to suggest ways that the airline could save money that included ramp workers as well, the guy took ideas from the workers who really had the answers the whole time.

He makes over 100,000 a year...how on earth is he getting the shaft? To bad he won't be able to afford a couple extra luxuries this year.
He's getting docked pay that he worked years to get.Be;live it or not this guy is flying an MD80 and is a second yr captain, you guys couldn't understand half the stuff that we who actually fly do. I'm disappointed in all of you who call yourselves enthusiasts but cant comprehend the struggles of a pilot.

Are you serious with this statement? The upper management doesn’t work? Would you like Arpey to go load planes?
Yes I would it would be the first time anyone could say they ahve actually seen him doing work.

His job is to plan and execute the long-term strategic plan of American Airlines.
That may be his job, but he will leave in a few years,maybe even months. But I doubt it as there has been a return in profit.


You also blasted Clark about not being in the airline industry, even though he's an Air Force Academy grad, and you're not even a pilot yourself.
I attended the academy as well that doesn't mean anything.


Sticker falls off from force of air passing the plane, sucks into engine. KABOOM!! IF he were to put a sticker somewhere, DONT put it where your customers can get hurt.
You may want to do your math again...and again, because that will not happen.

What he did was not so smart but losing a months pay...ridiculous.

[PhilDernerJr]

Informant, I am very familiar with the "rope diaries" in the cockpits, but there's a big difference when adding grafitti to the inside of a compartment in the cockpit that only pilots see, and a sticker on the exterior of an aircraft that the public sees. One is MUCH more unprofessional than the other.

This goes out to anyone, and is a serious question. Please answer in detail.

Why do pilots, many of whom make 6 figure salaries, have it so bad? I'm not saying they do or don,t but I think it's unclear to many. Several people have already said that we don't know what they go through, but no one is explaining what they go through.

[USAF Pilot 07]

I attended the academy as well



Yea? Cool.... What year did you graduate? What squadron were you in?

[Mellyrose]

To throw my 2 cents in...I think that pilots and certain other members of the crew have it a lot better than other airline employees. There are strict union rules and policies surrounding hours, rest, pay, etc. This doesn't apply across the boards for other types of crew. Pilots do NOT have it as bad as other airline employees.

And Informant, even though you tore apart and over-analyzed everyone else's thoughts and opinions, it still boils down to the fact that what this guy did was wrong...you said so yourself. What should they have done to punish him? Smacked his hand? Put him in a corner?

Compare the situation to a different work environment (office, restaurant, hospital, anything) and I bet that at least 95% of the time the employee would have been terminated without negotiation for disrespecting his company.

[Informant]

1976
After UBT
started at Randolph in the 96th
ended in the 434th in Holloman.

Seems like you guys made a splash across the web.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=15047

[T-Bird76]

Infomat you’re attempt at justifying what was done is really poor.


That may be his job, but he will leave in a few years, maybe even months. But I doubt it as there has been a return in profit.

Arpey has been with AA for many years and worked his way up the ladder. Who do you think should run the airline? The same workers who defaced that plane in the picture you posted? Based on that picture I don't think I'd want them an airline let alone a baggage loader.


Yes I would it would be the first time anyone could say they have actually seen him doing work.

Its pure ignorance to think upper management doesn't work. While they may not do the same job as you they have an important role to play in the success of the company. You're probably right that the front line workers do more actual psychical work then upper management but that’s the fact my friend, that's how it works at any large company. The CEO of my company prob does very little real hands on work but the man determines and plans out the future of the company. I'd rather know the leaders of my company are working towards a future so I have a job. AA has done a fine job at securing the future of their company. Hey you know what if you don't like where you work....then leave!


He's getting docked pay that he worked years to get.Be;live it or not this guy is flying an MD80 and is a second yr captain, you guys couldn't understand half the stuff that we who actually fly do. I'm disappointed in all of you who call yourselves enthusiasts but can’t comprehend the struggles of a pilot.

So you're saying we should support the pilot who broke company policy and decided to take it upon himself to advertise his feelings on a plane he doesn't own? Being an enthusiast has nothing to do with supporting a pilot. The struggles of a pilot, I'm sorry mate but I'm not breaking out the violin for this guy. I fully aware that many pilots today are paid piss poor wages and have little to any life but a certain level of professionalism is expected while on duty. Flight crews have no right to take their case to the passengers while on duty. My company or myself just paid allot of money for an airline ticket I don't need or want to hear about you're problems. You know what I have my own problems to deal with, so the few hours I'm going to sit on a plane I don't need to hear yours. Fly the plane and make sure we get there safely and promote you're issues on you're time not mine.

If you want to say this guy was a scapegoat, I'd agree. AA management sent a very strong message that displays like this will not be tolerated while on duty. I applaud AA for their stance; any other company would have fired him if he were caught doing that.

[Mellyrose]

FYI: We have more than just spotters on this site. Many users also work in the airline industry. Good for you for finding a couple people who disagree with us like you do. It's their prerogative just as well as it is yours.

....though, no one was namecalling until you came around.

[PhilDernerJr]

YES! I haven't been called names on the internet in quite some time. For a while I thought I was losin' my touch. :D

Again, I'm open to hear the arguments, but no one on the "pilot's" side has actually given an argument as to what the problem is with a pilot's working conditions and salary. Many people here are just looking to learn.

[USAF Pilot 07]

1976
After UBT
started at Randolph in the 96th
ended in the 434th in Holloman.

Seems like you guys made a splash across the web.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=15047

'76? A couple of my friends fathers were around that time frame. Oh and I meant what squadron did you graduate from the Academy?

And pardon my ignorance, but what does UBT stand for? I'm trying to figure out what acronym the "B" stands for, but can't figure it out....

Anyway, nice to see a fellow-grad on here...

[PhilDernerJr]

Out of the 7 people who've replied to this thread (excluding Informant), only 3 of them are NOT in the aviation industry.

BTW, still waiting for someone to explain the pilots' plight to me.

[nwafan20]

Well, looks like NYCaviation has gotten a little heat from APF...

Anyway, I do think that 12k is a bit too heavy of a sign, for instance, in my school, some teachers stuck up Kerry '04 bumper stickers on the wall, no fine, no termination, just a "take it down"

Lets just outline some of the stuff talked about on the APF forum, for our own amusement:


P.S The guys here are spotters so they really dont know what they are talking about most of the time.
Actually quite a few here are in the industry, I would say about half, before you attack another forum, know your facts


you should read what the users wrote.
Many here have differing opinions, I don't agree with it, but the others do bring up valid arguments


That guy Phil D. hasn't a clue. I don't usually name call but that guy is the real toolbag.
Now that made me laugh so hard!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Here's what one of them said:

"Sticker falls off from force of air passing the plane, sucks into engine. KABOOM!! IF he were to put a sticker somewhere, DONT put it where your customers can get hurt."
He does have a point when he says that, its incorrect, it isn't dangerous.


!LOL! How on earth did you find that website? I don't think any of us would waste the time but someone should set them straight. Here's what Phil D. said LOL!:
I think we can handle ourselves ;)

[Informant]

1976
After UBT
started at Randolph in the 96th
ended in the 434th in Holloman.

Seems like you guys made a splash across the web.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=15047

'76? A couple of my friends fathers were around that time frame. Oh and I meant what squadron did you graduate from the Academy?

And pardon my ignorance, but what does UBT stand for? I'm trying to figure out what acronym the "B" stands for, but can't figure it out....

Anyway, nice to see a fellow-grad on here...

UPT my mistake a typo, im getting old and its getting late
Bull 6

And to Phil,

A pilots plight- flying for an airline, starting at the bottom of the ladder at a regional(which never had good pay), getting paid near nothing, and SIC time which no Major airline really values at all, waiting to upgrade to captain which will take a few yrs just so you can meet the PIC mins to even apply to a Maj. And 99% of the time these guys don't complain because we know that someday we have the chance to make it to the promise-land, a legacy carrier and then the only thing we have to worry about is deciding if we want chicken or fish for dinner.
Not to mention the hours, the thousands or hours of studying on the ground that we have accumulated since we first got our Private tickets, to make sure that flying could become a reality.

[PhilDernerJr]

Should I really go through and list all of the common jobs and industries where people go through the SAME problems...and don't often even have the opportunity to begin making six figures in their career?

Again, I'm not saying pilots have it easy or don't deserve a decent pay. But sometimes I find it to be a bit over the top. The argument you mention is honestly just not enough to warrant any pity from me or the general public.

[Mellyrose]

So, you're saying that pilots have it bad because they have to start from the bottom and work their way up? Because they need to spend thousands of hours studying? I know other people who do that and aren't pitied...really anyone who wants to get anywhere in their career.

Doctors all have their internships where they work like dogs for little pay and excruciating hours...and it pays off in the end. Accountants start at the bottom of the barrel and work until all hours of the night with the hopes of one day maybe becoming a CFO or President of a financial company. I don't think that this is an uncommon or unusual situation and it shouldn't be treated any differently than another occupation.

[Novanglus]

I know a lot of what pilots go through, but it can be worse. Allow me to explain my job to you in detail.

I am a supervisor with an airline, and I travel with our aircraft to some pretty remote places around the world. I oversee and manage a LOT of our operations at stations that are not manned by our company, and play a pretty important role.

I am not considered crew.

I have no union, or the protections that come with it.

On a 6 day trip (though some are much longer), I can go through just as many countries, some several times during that same trip. And while the F/As and pilots swap out, I often stay with the aircraft.

That means I rarely get hotels, and sleep in a regular seat for days (in a suit).

It means I eat airline meals for days.

It means I "shower" with baby-wipes and change my clothes in the lav once a day.

I don't get weekends off. I've missed EVERY holiday in the past year with the exception of one. I have not and will not ever get more than two days off at a time, except for when I'm actually able to use my vacation once every couple years.

After a 5 or 6 day trip, I sometimes will as much as one day off before being sent back out to do it again.

All that, and I get paid barely over $31k. I get no overtime as well.

Why would I allow myself to be ABUSED so much? Because I love aviation.

I miss home, my family, I've lost weight (in a bad way), and have sacrificed almost everything since I took this job, but when I'm out there all over the world, doing what I do....it feels great.

Many people on this site also work in the industry, but we are ALL enthusiasts. That's what the passion is about.

There are some great people over at APF.com, but some bad apples as well. So maybe you should tell some of those whiny bitches to read over here a bit more to remember why they took their job to begin with.

[T-Bird76]

1976
After UBT
started at Randolph in the 96th
ended in the 434th in Holloman.

Seems like you guys made a splash across the web.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?t=15047

'76? A couple of my friends fathers were around that time frame. Oh and I meant what squadron did you graduate from the Academy?

And pardon my ignorance, but what does UBT stand for? I'm trying to figure out what acronym the "B" stands for, but can't figure it out....

Anyway, nice to see a fellow-grad on here...

UPT my mistake a typo, im getting old and its getting late
Bull 6

And to Phil,

A pilots plight- flying for an airline, starting at the bottom of the ladder at a regional(which never had good pay), getting paid near nothing, and SIC time which no Major airline really values at all, waiting to upgrade to captain which will take a few yrs just so you can meet the PIC mins to even apply to a Maj. And 99% of the time these guys don't complain because we know that someday we have the chance to make it to the promise-land, a legacy carrier and then the only thing we have to worry about is deciding if we want chicken or fish for dinner.
Not to mention the hours, the thousands or hours of studying on the ground that we have accumulated since we first got our Private tickets, to make sure that flying could become a reality.

Sounds just like most people when they leave college and get their first job. I don't know to many jobs where people walk out of college and you're handed the keys to a BMW, a corner office, and a hefty paycheck. Most people in this country have to work hard to get where they want to go. Sounds to me that the pilots are a bit disconnected from reality if they think their plight is somehow different then anyone else in our society trying to earn a living.

[NIKV69]

but there's a big difference when adding grafitti to the inside of a compartment in the cockpit that only pilots see, and a sticker on the exterior of an aircraft that the public sees. One is MUCH more unprofessional than the other.


This sums it up. I doubt it would get sucked into the engine but the act itself was stupid, careless and I feel this pilot should be thankful he still has a job. As for all this other crap about plights and coming up and paying your dues it is the same for any business. With the exception of having your last name be Hilton you are not going to be handed a job making a ton of money. It takes hard work and patience.

Phil's avatar is nice! He is wearing a tie!

[engine46]

It also comes down to responsibility. Yes, doctors, exexs, lawyers, may also start out at crap pay after all those years of studying and hard work, but when it comes down to it- when they screw up, the consequences are much less than those when we screw up. A lost case or a blown deal is no comparison to the lives of 200 people.

I don't think its rediculous to ask for a little more in return based on that concept.

[Matt Molnar]

I don't think it's relevant to mention the pilot's salary or anyone else's. If you have a family and live in a big city, $144,000 a year might be just enough to live comfortably, but you'd hardly be "well off."

The bottom line is the comparison of the pilot's salary to that of the executives he works for nor anything else can justify making a very unprofessional public display of your dissatisfaction with management. Case closed. Probably the only reason he wasn't fired outright was due to his union membership.

[mirrodie]

Let them picket, protest or w/e but when they are on duty they should perform up the standards the airline has set forth, its as simple as that. His punishment is just and you have no argument to the contrary.

The punishment is nothing more than a SPITEFUL reproach of power. The pilot was wrong but the response is spiteful. The fact that only $1120 was raised also makes me wonder what other AA pilots thought; That he was in the right or the wrong.


So, you're saying that pilots have it bad because they have to start from the bottom and work their way up? Because they need to spend thousands of hours studying? I know other people who do that and aren't pitied...really anyone who wants to get anywhere in their career.

Doctors all have their internships where they work like dogs for little pay and excruciating hours...and it pays off in the end. Accountants start at the bottom of the barrel and work until all hours of the night with the hopes of one day maybe becoming a CFO or President of a financial company. I don't think that this is an uncommon or unusual situation and it shouldn't be treated any differently than another occupation.

I agree and have been there. It's true in most professions.

It means I "shower" with baby-wipes and change my clothes in the lav once a day.

Not sure I'll be able to get that image out of my head next time I change my son's diaper and whip out a baby wipe.

I don't know to many jobs where people walk out of college and you're handed the keys to a BMW, a corner office, and a hefty paycheck

You don't? I came out and was given the keys to a 90 Buick, a russian mail order bride and new shoes. I guess I had it made :?


All kidding aside, Informant, I apprecaite the view you bring to the table.

Like you and unlike most here though, the $12K suspension is over the top especially consideirng what happened. It was a slap in the face and a spiteful response from the execs.

However, let me add a personal note:

Back when I was deciding on careers, I was gung ho to go into Colorado Springs, was accepted but not able to do flight school based on vision. So I took back my application and nomination.
Then I turned toward Embry Riddle.

The best thing Embry Riddle could have ever done for me was SHOW ME HOW HARD IT WAS TO MAKE MONEY AS A PILOT. And this was back in 92. After a full presentation up here at a Holiday Inn near ISP, they went over curriculums, class experiences, and finally, they outlined what the first 5, 10, 15 and 20 years might be as a commerical airline pilot.

Seeing that, I turned toward healthcare.

In other words, Informant, can you perhaps see why you are getting the negative feedback of "why do pilots have it so bad?" May I ask, didn't you know what the industry would be like before you opted to join it?

Side note: hey, we doctors have it pretty rough too. Unfortunately, the answer is see more patients.

I haven't yet looked through the airline forums thread link someone added earlier, but the very first post says "P.S The guys here are spotters so they really dont know what they are talking about most of the time."

well then, with such blatant arrogance, any sympathy gotten from me is waning. :roll:

I see both sides and have empathy, but that comment was arrogant.

[mirrodie]

...
You know, the irony of the situation is that this pilot's month paycut is probably paying for the his exec's week's salary.

[T-Bird76]

I don't understand what the backlash is with the exec's salaries and bonuses.... I think it’s understood that in a capitalist society this is how our system is setup... These people are in these positions because over the course of their career they've proved to make good sound business decisions (most of the time) and the higher you move up in a company the more you get paid. The other fact is its known that generally the higher you move up the less "hands on" work you do as you are generally are using you're time for supervisory or planning duties.

I sit outside a call center and the person who sits outside my office does a ton more work as a percent of her time then I do. Its not saying that I don't do my job but my role isn't front line but my role allows her to do her job more efficiently but I have more flexibility in my day then she does and I get paid allot more money as Arpey gets paid allot more money then the front line workers. I believe most top level managers in today's successful companies deserve the money and extra's they get.

[mirrodie]

My apologies if you thought that was a bashlash at exec's salaries.

It wasn't.

[Informant]

May I ask, didn't you know what the industry would be like before you opted to join it?
Of course but like everyone else we looked toward the sky in hopes of a better future.

[mirrodie]

May I ask, didn't you know what the industry would be like before you opted to join it?
Of course but like everyone else we looked toward the sky in hopes of a better future.

Right. So aren't you on a point on a thread, from A to B, somewhere in between A and slowily climbing to B?

The very slow and gradual climb up was one reason why I did not opt to fly for a living.

[mizjasterzero]

This is why they are are so mad.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06082007/watch.html

[moose135]

This is why they are are so mad.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06082007/watch.html

Did I miss something? I didn't see any mention of AA in that piece. It talked about what happened at NWA, Delta & US when they came out of bankruptcy, something AA never went through.

I usually side with labor, but this was something stupid this pilot did. If I deliberately defaced company property, I'd be lucky to end up with a one month suspension.

[mirrodie]

May I ask, didn't you know what the industry would be like before you opted to join it?

Of course but like everyone else we looked toward the sky in hopes of a better future.

Again, that is a very romantic way of looking at it, but its not realistic. What you are implying is that you knew the industry and what lied ahead but joined it anyway with a glimmer of hope that things would get better.

Reminds of one of my favorite quotes:

Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.

the addendum to that is...."unless you are talking about the aviation industry."


As I said, I thank Embry for educating me on what lied ahead. Now I don't have to complain about it.

The link to the airline pilot forum was informative. It showed a bunch of supposed (I say supposed b/c I don't know how hte site credentials users) pilots bitching and moaning about non-pilots. One goes so far to bash spotters and call out Phil D.
Any empathy from me was lost right there.

When my field changed to having to deal with managed care, I didn't cry on a forum and
bash others for not understanding. I weathered the change, adapted and evolved.

I can see the anger when the pilot was told to quit crying and just become an executive. That was great advice. Leave the field and reach for something else.

I know of one user here, who can speak up if he wishes, who was a pilot and seeing what the industry would be, changed gears completely.

No one is bashing pilots outright here. But coming from a field who also has the "right" to cry about their industry, I too would like to understand why pilots have it so bad.