Plane carrying 170 crashes in São Paulo

[Midnight Mike]

17-July-2007

Report: Plane carrying 170 crashes in São Paulo
Globo News TV says aircraft hits a filling station trying to land at airport

SÃO PAULO - A passenger plane carrying 170 people crashed into a filling station at São Paulo's Congonhas airport Tuesday after failing to brake in time upon landing, Globo News television said.

Air Force Command confirmed the fire but could not say how many people were on board, if any, at the time of the accident, and whether there were any victims.

[njgtr82]

It was a TAM A320

[Midnight Mike]

It was a TAM A320

Plane carrying at least 150 crashes in São Paulo

Official: TAM airline aircraft hits a filling station after landing at airport

SÃO PAULO - A plane carrying at least 150 people crashed into a gas station after landing at São Paulo's airport Tuesday, Brazil's airport authority said.

The TAM airline's Airbus 320 skidded off the pavement and crashed into the gas station outside Congonhas airport, said Jose Leonardi Mota, a spokesman with airport authority Infraero.

Mota said the flight originated in the southern city of Porto Alegre.

There were no immediate reports on injuries or deaths.

[N790SW]

Just Saw on the news a TAM Airbus A320 overshot the runway and crashed into a TAM Cargo building and a gas station in Brazil, There is fire all over the place and hopefully I am wrong, It doesn't look like anyone survived. God Bless the people and the families.

[N790SW]

PR-MBK it appears judging by a few people on a-net that, that is the regi for this plane. My condolences to those involved in this tragic event. Some what of a coincidences that its on the same day as TWA Flight 800 anniversary.

[PhilDernerJr]

Apparently it hit a gas station.

Also, the runway was not complete....it did not have grooving in it for traction.

It's a great shame. Brazil is a country that is advancing very well, but they can't seem to upgrade their infrastructure to be able to sustain its growth. First their ATC issue with the GOL crash and now their airport facilities. If you're going to have a successful aircraft manufacturer in your country, you should have the ability to operate them safely.

[hiss srq]

Too bad. At least they cannot blame this one on innocent American pilot though. Excuse me if I am discusted with Brazil folks. It is unfortuneate that many perished today down there. It goes to show you that Brazil in EVERY sense except the aircraftg manufacture realm has issues and really needs to get it's nation together if it is to be a respectable nation in any sense. Brazils aircraft manufactureing is advanceing well Phil. It is still in most other senses a third world country as far as I am concerned. The level of violence as from what my father has told me in his trips there and what I here elsewhere is terrible.

[LGA777]

Couple of coments from LGA777. I have seen several cockpit videos of landings and takeoffs from CGH, very short runways with drop offs at the ends and lots of city infrastructure also at the ends. The runway reopened on 6/29 after being repaved but was not re-grooved. To allow large aircraft operations in heavy rain on this un-grooved runway is CRIMINAL level negligence. Especially since an ATR-42 I understand overan the exact same runway in heavy rain YESTERDAY. That this accident was allowed to happen is UNFRIGEN UNBELIVABLE. Also the aircraft was accquired used by TAM this year, I have seen it at JFK when it was N454TA with TACA. And finally I found this photo on a.net to be incredibly ironic, same aircraft, same airport, same runway, same conditions.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1200054/L/


RIP to all onboard, and ROT in Brazilian Jail to those who allowed this tragedy to happen.

LGA777

[AirtrafficController]

Is there a special material that supports traction?
I know that most runways are made of concrete or asphalt or both. Did not the pilot knew or was given information that he was landing on an incomplete runway? Its similar when driving on an incomplete bridge. Brazil should be speeding up its air travel structure as air travel continues to grow rapidly.

[N790SW]

This accident as many have been saying is being somewhat compared to Southwest Flight 1455 in BUR a few years back, as luck would have it, the plane did not hit a gas station, but came awfully close to it. Also is it me , or is it kind of strange the way they are handling things down there in Brazil, The Airline its self from what I heard is not treating this as if it was a real crash, there is any word of any progression or not of whats going on? maybe its just me I guess? - I agree to Ron, who ever let this happen - let them rot to death in a prison, this kind of thing should never have to happen.

[AirtrafficController]

SAO PAULO, Brazil (CNN) -- A TAM Airline passenger plane carrying as many as 170 people crashed Tuesday while attempting to land at Sao Paulo's Congonhas domestic airport, the airline said.

The statement did not say how many people were on board. There was no immediate word on survivors.

The plane apparently struck a building. Video footage from the scene showed visible flames at the crash site and a TAM sign visible on the building.

Flight JJ3054, an Airbus A320, was coming to Sao Paulo from Porto Alegre, the airline said.
The airline said it could not immediately confirm the extent of the damage or the number of victims. Family members of those on the plane were being given assistance, it said. An airline crew was at the scene working with emergency responders.

A statement from firefighters said about 50 rescue vehicles were at the scene. The fire continues to burn, firefighters said, but rescuing people on the plane is officials' priority.

Tom Hennigan, a reporter from The Times of London in Sao Paulo, told CNN that Tuesday's weather in Sao Paulo included low-lying clouds and heavy rain.

The airport's main runway was closed for several weeks at one point while it was repaired because of a problem with water collecting on the runway, Hennigan said. It was too early, however, to say whether that may have contributed to Tuesday's incident, he said.

The airport is small and in a densely populated area, he said.

"When you fly into Congonhas airport, it is like you are literally flying past people's living rooms in apartment blocks," Hennigan said. "Then you land on the runway. It is completely surrounded by the central part of Sao Paulo city. This is not an airport out on the edge of the city. This is right in the city."

According to the Associated Press, Brazil's deadliest crash occurred last September when a Gol Aerolinhas Inteligentes SA Boeing 737 collided with an executive jet over the Amazon rainforest.

All 154 people on the passenger jet died. The executive jet landed safely.


Aparently the bad weather and heavy rain the incomplete runway were a combination of disaster.

[hiss srq]

This is outragious on soo many levels. It is sickening. NOTAMS should have been out. On a full boat 320 with a 10,000 foot runway they have weight restrictions. Now add contaminated runways in and it is a whole diffrent ball game. Now toss the ungrooved situation in and it was a garunteed disaster. Brazil and Columbia and all of that region need to get their **** together. This is unbeleivable. For nations like Columbia and Brazil which have fairly mature and modern aviation governing bodies unlike places like Nigeria for example there is no excuse.

[lijk604]

RIP to all onboard, and ROT in Brazilian Jail to those who allowed this tragedy to happen.
LGA777

I agree with Ron's comments. The fact that the ATR had an issue yesterday under the same conditions is like clovering your eyes and saying "I didn't see it, so it didn't happen." To KNOWINGLY let an aircraft even attempt this is nuts, unfortunately, I am going to say something others may not like. TAM is also at fault. This is the LARGEST domestic airport in Brazil, of which TAM has a very large presence. They are going to say that they had other aircraft arrive/depart there without incident, so this was just a tragic accident. Someone should have had a set of balls and not allowed this flight to attempt a landing without a STRONG briefing to the crew on the ATR incident from the day prior. Unfortunately most pilots think they are god and can do no wrong, and that every airport/runway/aircraft has a safety margin built in. The fact that this runway was not grooved, took away the safety margin. If they "ran their numbers" for landing and felt they could make it, I'm sure they were based on a grooved surface.

I apologize for rambling, but this was a preventable situation and it really makes me angry as someone who is in the business. Part of my job everyday is to look for the possible pitfalls and even though the crew may already know it, remind them of it. This way there are no performance screw-ups. As a charter company we are expected by our clients to fly wherever we are told to, but, as a safe company, we also will not hesitate to advise a customer, that the airport they want to go to is unsafe for the aircraft they have chartered, and offer an alternate option. I can't begin to tell you how many people would love to fly out of HTO (East Hampton) but depending on the aircraft type they have chartered we sometimes cannot do it, and flat out tell the passengers, use FOK (Westhampton) or choose another aircraft.

[LGA777]

Couple more coments from LGA777. Hearing the death toll is now 200, and sadly many from the building are possibly TAM employees. Also there where 14 deadheading TAM employees on the flight in addition to the working crew, probably pilots and flight attendents, RIP to all onboard and on the ground, and sympothy to families and all TAM employees.

I am still at work, and over the years have learned of many accidents over the years while working. I remember one such night, we did not have the internet, and the TV was in the ramp breakroom, several floors down. After hearing bits and pieces my shift ended and I went to that breakroom and after clocking out I stayed and watched news coverage for several hours. That night was exactly ELEVEN years ago tonight, and the acccident was TWA 800. I have had enough sadness for one night, so I am leaving and going home to what's really important to me, my Beautiful wife and Beautiful 9 month old daughter.

Goodnight from LGA

LGA777

[bonanzabucks]

I have been to Brazil on four different occasions and I almost moved to SP three years ago. I know a lot about the country, but I don't really want to comment on the society there.

I will say a few things about CGH as I have been there before. CGH is a very small airport and it's the busiest airport in South America. It's got two really short runways, but usually only one is used at a time -- the inner one, which is the longer one. The airport itself is kind of built on a small plateau and it's really small. I know I said it before, but you really can't emphasize that enough. I'd even venture to say that it's smaller than LGA.

These pics give a good idea of the airport:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0634881/L/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0297560/L/

Anyways, as you can see, the runways literally stretch from one end to the other and they're SMALL. And, as you can see, the runways begin and end at the edge of the plateau. It's a steep step down afterwards. You really got to see it yourself because it's quite amazing to see really big planes, like A332s', take-off and land from this small airport. It's also amazing how busy it is (even busier than GRU), especially considering how small it is and how close it is to the city center. And ironically, they recently renovated the main terminal building and it's quite nice inside.

They were planning to expand GRU and add a new terminal building and runway. There was even talk of closing CGH and transferring all the flights there (which would be impossible since GRU can't really handle that much more). I know they had a dedicated space for the new terminal building, but not sure about the status of the runway. But knowing how Brazilian bureaucracy works, I don't think they were too far forward with their plans. But then, the business men would not want to close CGH because of its location and GRU is really far away and in a dangerous part of the city.

Anyways, this is really a terrible tragedy and my thoughts and prayers go to everyone who suffered.

[PhilDernerJr]

Excellent perspective for this tragedy, Ron.

[bonanzabucks]

My friend lives three blocks from CGH. Apparently, her brother and mother were driving by the building the plane hit three minutes before it happened. Scary! Thank God they're OK.

[Iberia A340-600]

Another terrible aviation tragedy for Brazil and a sad hit for TAM as they are expanding so much.

My condolences for the families of the passengers and to the passengers themselves.

I was in Brazil last month and was quiet surprised by the vast amount of aviation involvement in the country and how crowded everything is in the airports and how crowded the airports are with aircraft. ATC must have such a load on their hands but it is still no excuse for accidents like these to happen.

GOL has overcome the crash as I am sure TAM will.

[Matt Molnar]

New details have emerged.

-- First official death toll is 189, and could rise. 162 passengers + 18 employees on board + 6 crew + 3 dead on the ground.
-- The fence at the end of the runway and the cars on the adjacent highway were untouched, indicating the pilot was attempting to take off again when the plane hit a TAM building and a gas station.

More: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... &catnum=-1 (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QF5DTO0&show_article=1&catnum=-1)

[NIKV69]

I have been to Brazil 5 times. SP is a nice city but does carry a very high crime rate. It is very crowded too as a huge amount of people and traffic are stuffed into a small space. Daylight muggings are not rare and the police are not like here and have corruption problems. From what I saw the dirt poor are mixed right in with the rich and most crime I would guess is strictly for survival. Brazil's prisons are probably the worst in the world as well.

As for CGH it is like Midway in Chicago, but much more busy. From what I am reading it is very possible the failure to allow for the drainage may be the cause here. If this is true that plane was on ice skates and the pilot had no chance. We are not talking about ice or snow, we are talking about rain and even though the runways are short it is enough distance to land. Just not enough to allow a plane rollout in case the brakes or traction fail. Whenever you have an airfield smack dab in the middle of housing and developments this can happen. The WN overrun is one instance in which one life was lost and this was much worse.

[LGA777]

Couple more from LGA777. I agree with Nick, CGH is a lot like MDW, and even busier, the big differance is at CGH, there are very significant drops offs at both ends of the parallel runways.

A question for Bonazabucks, do you know or if not could you ask your friends, what was the function for Tam of the Tam Express building the aircraft hit ?

Thanks

LGA777

[bonanzabucks]

A question for Bonazabucks, do you know or if not could you ask your friends, what was the function for Tam of the Tam Express building the aircraft hit ?

Thanks

LGA777

I'll shoot off an email to her tonight, but I can't promise I will get a response right away. When I spoke with her, she was really distraught and in total disbelief.

[hiss srq]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070719/ap_ ... lane_crash (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070719/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_plane_crash)


The crash may come to haunt Brazillian Goverment officials

[Matt Molnar]

Video of the landing and fire: http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3257.html

[bonanzabucks]

To answer the question, that TAM building was like a cargo office. This was from another friend. Her brother's girlfriend knew two people working in there and they were both killed.

[PhilDernerJr]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291781,00.html


"...the pilots were unable to activate the spoilers..."


"...one of the plane's throttles was in the wrong position as it touched down, causing it to speed up instead of slow down."

Looks like the runway will no longer be to blame. What went on there? No spoilers and reverse thrust problems. Pilot or mechanical?

[hiss srq]

I still think that the runway was at least partially to blame. If you look at performance specs for airplanes and have a general knowladge of operations, aircraft performance etc etc... an ungrooved runway and contamination are bad juju from the get go. I have to pull out the stuff from my classes and see what the numbers for an A-320 on a runway with contaminaton granted it is not with an IAE powered airbus but a CFM. It should generally be the same though the question of asymentrical thrust is intresting.. Spoilers put weight on wheels a little faster though too. Another note and this is general for jets is that thrust reverse is not something used in the calculation of stopping distances for an airplane according to the manuals though there are addition al specs. Any additional stopping distance realized is a plus in a case like that. I think though that this airplane may have been overweight for a landing at that airport given the current weather and runway conditions. If a 320 is landing restricted at CLT during wet runways conditions and they have ten grand to play with I would imagine that the numbers would not add up there. Again, for the specifics I need to dig back a little from school.

[Nonstop2AUH]

Ryan I know you are a bit familiar with the A320, do you (or does anyone else) have any idea of what would cause one of the throttles to be in the wrong position? I know from watching Airbus landing videos that there is an aural warning to "retard" the throttles on touchdown. What would happen if this was not done? Could that be an issue here?

[hiss srq]

I do not know the answer to that and the information I would have to work with will probably not be able to answer that but I will do a bit of research and see what I can find. I will ask a crew tomorrow as well. Now this is just out of speculation on my part but it could be possible that they ad inadvertantly left the auto throttle engaged and were "fighting the computer" so to speak. It could be as simple as the crew was not handleingthe throttles properly too though. A million possibilities there though. I will do a little information hunt tomorow.