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lijk604
2007-07-13, 08:27 AM
Ending a Limit on Kennedy Flights Increases Passengers and Delays

By KEN BELSON
Published: July 12, 2007
Correction Appended

In the past six months, Richard W. Petree Jr. has reluctantly settled into a routine. He boards an evening flight at Kennedy International Airport, sinks into his seat and waits for the pilot to tell passengers that their departure will be pushed back an hour. Then he returns to his BlackBerry until the next broadcast about further delays.

“An hour and a half to two hours in a queue on the tarmac is now absolutely typical,” said Mr. Petree, an investment banker from Manhattan who flies frequently to Budapest, Dubai, Istanbul, London, Riyadh and other points overseas. “No one looks up from their reading anymore when the announcement is made. And the airline acts as if we should expect delays.”

The situation is increasingly common at Kennedy, where delayed departures are now as bad as at Newark Liberty International and worse than at La Guardia.

The main cause was a federal decision at the start of the year to remove the limit at Kennedy on the number of arrivals and departures between 3 p.m. and 8 p.m. Not surprisingly, airlines rushed to offer new flights, quickly clogging the airspace, runways, taxiways and gates at Kennedy.

In many cases, smaller regional jets that seat only up to 70 passengers account for many of the new flights, yet the demands they place on air traffic controllers are similar to those of larger jets.

This helps explain why the number of flights at Kennedy surged 26.4 percent in the first four months of this year compared with the same period last year, even though the number of passengers increased only 12.9 percent over the previous year, according to monthly figures compiled by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates the airports. In all, Kennedy handles about 1,200 flights a day.

At La Guardia, where the limits are still in place, flights decreased 1 percent, and at Newark, where the limits were not in place, flights rose 6.9 percent.

To handle the additional traffic, the Federal Aviation Administration has started allowing Kennedy to use three of its four runways at the same time for longer periods during the day. Still, the Bureau of Transportation Statistics says that from January through May, 29.1 percent of all departures there have been delayed, up from 18.1 percent in the same period last year.

“The bottom line is you can only get so many planes in,” said William R. DeCota, director of aviation at the Port Authority. “The airspace and runways can probably be handled more efficiently, but that requires new procedures and technology.”

Beset by delays, in May the Port Authority set up a task force made up of airline executives, regulators and other officials to consider ways to loosen the current bottleneck at Kennedy as well as handling the additional 25 million passengers a year that are expected by 2015 at the area’s three major airports.

The task force, which will meet for the first time on Wednesday, can discuss such things as management of the taxiways and gates and issues related to the size of the planes — all factors related to the bottleneck — but it is not permitted to bring up scheduling because of antitrust regulations. In addition, the Port Authority has no jurisdiction over the airlines, many of which support using regional jets.

“There are a lot of markets where the distances aren’t that great, and for fuel and scheduling purposes, it makes more sense to use smaller planes,” said Sametta C. Barnett, director of government affairs at Delta Air Lines. “You have to have domestic feeds to get people from across the 50 states to the international flights.”

In the case of Delta, flights on smaller regional jets account for about 61 percent of Delta’s departures to 86 cities from Kennedy.

The airlines, while deploring the delays, do not speak in a single voice. JetBlue, which does not use any regional jets, says the delays penalize low-cost carriers that do not discount fares. As a result, JetBlue asked the aviation agency last month to reimpose traffic limits at Kennedy if delays cannot be reduced.

“The F.A.A. has a responsibility that demand at the airport does not outstrip capacity,” said Robert C. Land, senior vice president for government affairs at JetBlue.

International carriers, which bunch their departures for Europe and the Middle East at night, are also frustrated because their jumbo jets must also jockey with regional jets on the taxiways.

“The delays are wreaking havoc because we have to pay our airport staff more overtime and folks are missing connections at our hubs in Germany,” said Jennifer Urbaniak, a spokeswoman for Lufthansa. “In every one of these cases, we try to make up for the delays by flying as fast we can. But that’s not the answer.”

The Port Authority is trying to persuade the airlines to cut the number of flights and use larger jets by reminding them of how delays affect their bottom line. Delivery companies like DHL, for instance, promise to repay customers whose packages are not delivered on time. JetBlue has a Customer Bill of Rights that entitles passengers whose scheduled departures are delayed to vouchers for discounts on future flights.

The Port Authority may also prefer that airlines use larger planes because they pay higher landing fees, which are based on an aircraft’s weight. The agency also collects $4.50 from every departing passenger with a paid ticket. That money goes toward airport improvements, and even though passenger numbers are up, this is another reason to use larger planes with more seats.

“If we get more people in, we get more money in,” Mr. DeCota said. “It means you pay off projects faster.”

For the longer term, the aviation agency is introducing new technology that will allow jets to fly more efficiently. It is certifying flight crews to use satellite-based systems that enhance a plane’s ability to make more precise turns as it prepares to land. By doing so, fewer planes to Kennedy will be on paths that overlap with flights heading to La Guardia, reducing delays there.

Some JetBlue pilots are already using the system in clear weather at Kennedy.

In addition, another kind of satellite technology will enable planes to fly closer together, particularly in bad weather, reducing potential delays, and the aviation agency is redesigning the region’s airspace to redirect the flow of arrivals and departures more efficiently.

“We’re talking about satellite systems with a lot more precision that will change the role of air traffic controllers,” said Mike Cirillo, vice president for system operation services at the Federal Aviation Administration. Still, these are long-term solutions for current problems and are cold comfort to passengers waiting for hours to arrive and depart at Kennedy.

Victoria Printz, a business consultant from Manhattan, found that out while circling the airport for 90 minutes on a recent flight from London.

“The pilot said it was his longest approach to J.F.K. since he started flying,” she said.

lijk604
2007-07-13, 08:31 AM
Maybe the Air Transport Association folks who want to blame private jets for the ATC problems should read this carefully. There is not one mention of private aviation in this article, YET, there is this telling statement:


In the case of Delta, flights on smaller regional jets account for about 61 percent of Delta’s departures to 86 cities from Kennedy.


61% of Delta's traffic to JFK is RJ's! This doesn't calculate AA's regional traffic, but I'm sure that's over 30% of thier business as well.
Bottom Line: Corporate Aviation is not the scourge it's made out to be, it's the DAMN RJ's clogging up our airways.

Nycfly75
2007-07-13, 09:15 AM
Maybe the Air Transport Association folks who want to blame private jets for the ATC problems should read this carefully. There is not one mention of private aviation in this article, YET, there is this telling statement:


In the case of Delta, flights on smaller regional jets account for about 61 percent of Delta’s departures to 86 cities from Kennedy.


61% of Delta's traffic to JFK is RJ's! This doesn't calculate AA's regional traffic, but I'm sure that's over 30% of thier business as well.
Bottom Line: Corporate Aviation is not the scourge it's made out to be, it's the DAMN RJ's clogging up our airways.

Tommy will argue with me again about this, but I do think RJSs are one of the main problems here. Its not the only problem, but when you hear Delta's ops are 61% RJs, it says something. Why not try to limit RJ departures between 3 and 8pm.. Totally banning them is out of the question but slot controlling them would help.

T-Bird76
2007-07-13, 09:48 AM
The main cause was a federal decision at the start of the year to remove the limit at Kennedy on the number of arrivals and departures between 3 p.m. and 8 p.m. Not surprisingly, airlines rushed to offer new flights, quickly clogging the airspace, runways, taxiways and gates at Kennedy.

What a load of horse ****! The airlines aren't going to rush to have empty planes sit burning fuel and losing money, they are responding to consumer demand. ITS NOT THE AIRLINES FAULT!


In many cases, smaller regional jets that seat only up to 70 passengers account for many of the new flights, yet the demands they place on air traffic controllers are similar to those of larger jets.

Stop blaming the RJs.....Will people ever realize you can't simply operate one flight a day to cities like PVD, ALB, ROC, and other like cities with one 767...consumers want choice and a flexiable scheule, therefor you're going to fill JFK, LGA, and EWR with a ton of RJs and there nothing that can be done about it.


“The bottom line is you can only get so many planes in,” said William R. DeCota, director of aviation at the Port Authority. “The airspace and runways can probably be handled more efficiently, but that requires new procedures and technology.”

BINGO! You win the prize! The FAA needs to get up off its ass and upgrade our ATC system which is using 30 year old systems. When half these procedures and systems were put to use no one ever heard of an RJ.


The Port Authority is trying to persuade the airlines to cut the number of flights and use larger jets by reminding them of how delays affect their bottom line.

The Port should be reminded that it will also effec the bottom line of the airlines if they don't have the choices the customers want. If one airlines reduces services another one may very well pick up the slack and you'll have a shift of customers to another airline.

The bottom line is the FAA is totally at fault here plain and simple but no one is just coming out and saying it.

Nycfly75
2007-07-13, 10:06 AM
I nominate Tommy to be the Pax rep on the aforementioned task force. :)

T-Bird76
2007-07-13, 10:31 AM
Tommy will argue with me again about this, but I do think RJSs are one of the main problems here. Its not the only problem, but when you hear Delta's ops are 61% RJs, it says something. Why not try to limit RJ departures between 3 and 8pm.. Totally banning them is out of the question but slot controlling them would help.

Ok Vin's let get at it....hehe Really though you can't limit those RJs, those RJ's feed all of Delta's international departures, without them those flights would go out empty or even more empty then I hear they are. You know in some way we really have nothing to complain about. It wasn't even a few years back that we hardly had any real domestic service out of JFK and now we have choice and we complain.

Delta's problem is they are basically putting the cart before the horse, they want to use JFK as a hub but they just don't have the space to do it. Perhaps this is a dumb suggestion but why not reopen the Tower Air terminal to Delta? Move the RJs there and bus people to T2/3 or something to that effect. It’s an empty space right now doing nothing with plenty of ramp space. JFK could easily cut down on taxiway traffic if more space was opened to get the RJs to a gate quicker.

lijk604
2007-07-13, 10:54 AM
Delta's problem is they are basically putting the cart before the horse, they want to use JFK as a hub but they just don't have the space to do it. Perhaps this is a dumb suggestion but why not reopen the Tower Air terminal to Delta?

Tommy, this is an excellent suggestion! There is a lot of wasted space over there at JFK, and there ARE 2 taxiways on that side of the field. So even if they were using 13R for takeoffs, the "RJ express" could still congo down one of the taxiways without backing up departures.

Nycfly75
2007-07-13, 10:54 AM
Tommy, You are right with all your points. It just get frustrating to see all those long haul craft begin held up by RJS. After so many years of JFK not growing, its wonderful to see how JFK is flourishing now. Delta needs a new terminal. They cant continue to do what they are doing long term and be successful. ATC issues and technology are the main source of the problem now. If those issues get fixed a huge burden would be lifted. But given the current state of things until those ATC issues are resolved something has to be done and I think preference should be given to a heavy from London or LA before an RJ from Rochester or Cleveland. Oh and I always viewed the old Tower complex as a perfect place for Southwest to set up shop someday ;)

Matt Molnar
2007-07-13, 10:59 AM
What a load of horse ****! The airlines aren't going to rush to have empty planes sit burning fuel and losing money, they are responding to consumer demand. ITS NOT THE AIRLINES FAULT!
Consumers demand lots of things from airlines, like friendly employees, meals, pillows, blankets, not getting stranded on the tarmac for 12 hours, yet most airlines don't deliver on those demands. The airlines aren't being forced to do anything. If they offer fewer flights on bigger planes, where are travelers going to go, Amtrak? HAHAHA.

My theory is after 9/11, airlines were too quick to scrap their older larger jets. Of course they were in no position to replace them with new ones of similar size. Instead they used these independent regional carriers, who used their own money to buy RJs, costing the major carriers practically nothing. Six years later and still none of the legacies have brought any significant new full-size jet capacity online, so they continue using the RJs under the guise of "it's what customers want!"

So yes, the government could force reduction of RJ service, but the airlines don't have any full-size planes to pick up the slack. This is the airlines' fault, not the desire of the flying public.

hiss srq
2007-07-13, 11:00 AM
I think it extends, everyone complains abou the RJ but in reality the RJ is the industry save for the internation service and even Canada and Mexico see RJ's from the USA> I think like someone else said it is management ofairport space in reality. LGA is RJ city but it is the heartbeat of LGA on the other hand, now manageing that flow is the issue.

bonanzabucks
2007-07-15, 01:36 PM
I'm curious about JFK. In the early afternoon, when the arrival traffic is greater, why don't they ever use the 22's or 4's exclusively for landings and take off from 31L at KK? Wouldn't that be more efficient since they arrival traffic isn't interfering with the departure traffic? I've never seen them use this pattern before. Usually, they're land on the 31's and take off on 31L or land on 13R, 13L and 22L and take off from 13R.

T-Bird76
2007-07-15, 10:25 PM
What a load of horse ****! The airlines aren't going to rush to have empty planes sit burning fuel and losing money, they are responding to consumer demand. ITS NOT THE AIRLINES FAULT!
Consumers demand lots of things from airlines, like friendly employees, meals, pillows, blankets, not getting stranded on the tarmac for 12 hours, yet most airlines don't deliver on those demands. The airlines aren't being forced to do anything. If they offer fewer flights on bigger planes, where are travelers going to go, Amtrak? HAHAHA.

My theory is after 9/11, airlines were too quick to scrap their older larger jets. Of course they were in no position to replace them with new ones of similar size. Instead they used these independent regional carriers, who used their own money to buy RJs, costing the major carriers practically nothing. Six years later and still none of the legacies have brought any significant new full-size jet capacity online, so they continue using the RJs under the guise of "it's what customers want!"

So yes, the government could force reduction of RJ service, but the airlines don't have any full-size planes to pick up the slack. This is the airlines' fault, not the desire of the flying public.

To point one Matt...No the consumers won't travel on Amtrak; they also won't use the airlines either. If the schedule isn't conducive to the consumers needs they simply won't travel. The airline industry is purely consumer driven and one or two flights a day to small and midsize cities simply will not work.

To point 2, the airlines had no choice but to dump their older planes, they'd be all out of business if they tried running their 727s and other 3 man flight deck fuel guzzling birds with half empty cabins.

The airlines could easily pick up full size planes on the second hand market but they'd be faced with a huge increase in expenses they can't afford. As the population grows and more people travel the FAA needs to step up. Its no secret they are years behind on they're projects. Its comes down to leadership in our gov't and for the past few years the traffic concerns of our airports is nothing more then a blame game.

hiss srq
2007-07-15, 11:30 PM
Not only that but something that most do not realize is regional airlines are paied on a completed flight basis no matter what the loads are. The regionals are not affected by flying these routes and certain routes get a higer rate due to thinkgs like being prone to delays on a particular route etc... The airlines are filling the planes, it is making money, and it is getting the job done. Now if the pot being the FAA would stop calling the kettle black and get their act together with our promised new procedures and get the new equipment on the way we would be in much better shape as far as I am concerned. RJ's are not the issue, the FAA and PANJNY are.