Your Thoughts [Archive] - NYCAviation Forum

NIKV69

2006-11-02, 03:36 PM

Yet I could buy a high end Nikon/Canon and just sit there and take the same boring angles and shots over and over again, on a sunny day, and poof, I'll be the top Anet uploader.

Yea and your average views would be 500. BTW don't you own a high end Canon camera? :mrgreen:

You've also got to understand that for various reasons whether they be not having a great camera, not getting to go spotting much or whatever it might, that some people don't have the same opportunities to get good photos and upload shots as some of the rest of us might. So when they get a chance to upload something, it feels special to them to get an acceptance, even if it might be the same plane as last time.

I can not speak for Tom but I think he may have meant photogs with good equip who spot frequently. You can do searches and find the same regi at the same airport 5 times from the same angle. This is done for one purpose, to boost pic count so you can brag to your friends. Your right there is nothing wrong with it. It does however do what Tommy says, it dilutes the DB.

Tom_Turner

2006-11-02, 11:23 PM

This sort of discussion really didn't come up until the digital influx...and even then, not right away.

The only bad thing I can say about it is that is makes the experience boring when browsing the database on an open search (open date/airline/aircraft etc) of any given airport - if the uploader has dumped all their shots in one sitting. In fact its the sole reason I don't browse A.net the way I used to; but its hardly something anyone else participating in uploading should (or will) worry about.

But think about the big picture here for a moment. What, after all, is the standard 50mm K64 side-on slide - taken perfectly. Its the same shot over and over again - no different than high approach shots (in a way). What difference would a reg make, or an aiport, - aesthetically, it is of the same value.

Same thing for a wing over a blue, or gray sky.... a row of seats in same class/airline/airliner type..so on and on.....

I do think however, if you take A.net as an actual "database", there *is* (or ought to be) some value to a "repetitive" shot - departure, arrival, side-on whatever, as it IS a *different* DATE whether at the same airport/different airport whatever.

Is it exciting for everyone to look at? No, probably not, but the irony is that the "beast" - the viewing public - with an extensive database to browse, seems to want/hunger for more *new* shots ALL the time. Try cutting A.net down to accepting, say, the "best" 50 shots a day (by whatever criteria you choose) and I bet you'd watch the viewership sink dramatically.

As for the more unusual shots... reflections, plane across a moon scape, snow, or whatever, they'll always be popular..and won't hurt for much, but yeah, other more easily obtainable shots will devalue under the onslaught of repitition.

On a personal note, at one time A.net was one-stop shopping in terms of aviation photography on-line, but, for better or worse, the subject matter has been atomized, and while still the best, (in my view), its late in the day for me to worry about the sanctity of the database, once certain folks packed up and bowed out. And, its especially irrelevant as there is an Admin, and by extension, a team of screeners that makes those decisions anyway of what goes in, based on their own thoughts which, only in passing, have anything to do with me or the average individual that contributes their images for possible inclusion.

In fact I think anyone who wants to call whatever file lands into the A.net database "ART", (and even some of those that don't :) ) should at least have their own individual set of criteria by which they would've crafted their own "rules" of what is worth looking at or not. And, I think most of us DO... The moment one wonders why someone is uploading in a certain way, or the site accepting (or **** canning) certain images, is the moment you part ways in vision with what A.net is (at any given moment...)

Nick - as for bragging about total images I don't see how that doesn't compare to boasting or coveting a high "Average Views" stat. If all things were equal, high average views would indicate nothing more than popularity...but as it is, all things are not equal. It depends on subject matter more than anything, (skill, access, kit, other things..) and if the high average views are obtained by rarely uploading, its simply a meaningless numbers game, because we introduce time as the key variable. Which is, if we are talking about standard airliner shots, (usually) why folks that upload frequently have a low Avg View..(of course). And, as much as I might find "card dumping" annoying to look at, at the end of the day, those that have uploaded in volume can at least say they've shared their passion for the hobby with others (even if they've put me, or you, or someone to sleep), but someone that holds back uploading to have a "high average" ??? what are they sharing? Their stats? What validity do they gain through that?

Inflated Average Views by non participation... just another side of the coin to spamming the database with thousands of shots really (*if* the reason is to brag about numbers...and I am not sure that is everyone's motivation).

At any rate, I am reminded of what a "Head Screener" once suggested: The elimination of stats on A.net. I don't personally agree, because I think the stats are "fun" in a way...but I am sympathetic to what I think he was getting at....

Anyway.. flame away... . :)

Tom

mikephotos

2006-11-03, 01:19 AM

Well said Tom. What it comes down to is shooting what YOU enjoy shooting and uploading what YOU enjoy. If you start shooting or uploading only what you think someone else might want to see, something that will get you high hits or just to pump up your quantity than you've lost the whole concept of this hobby....personal enjoyment.

I agree that dumping (uploading) a whole days shoot of similar shots and then doing it again in a few weeks to be somewhat overboard but who am I to tell someone what to do or not to do. If that's what he/she enjoys and if they're doing it for personal satisfation and the images are accepted by the sceeners than so be it. If you enjoy trying to be unique and upload only those types of shots, great. Just don't do it because of the stats...be it high quantity or high hits, which like you said is really the same.

And no, I do not feel the boring shots are a waste of DB space. Take away all of those boring shots and you no longer have a DB, you have a gallery of so-called artsy pretty pictures that are fun to look at but for some of us have no purpose. The DB needs all types of pictures to satisfy all types of views. My views are not going to be the same as yours and that's what makes the hobby so great. I personally tend to find the so-called artsy, unique, 'different' pictures to be in the of the way of the really beautiful gems, the perfect sunny side-on ramp shot :)

Of course that is just my opinion and what I enjoy. I don't look down on others for what they enjoy. In the end, it's just a hobby and well, we all have real lives to worry about :)

I do have to say that everyone here (and even those not on this site) are really pumping some great photos from JFK & LGA into the DBs, keep them coming. It's nice to see we all don't enjoy the same types of shots, that's the beauty of it.

Mike

NIKV69

2006-11-03, 08:35 AM

I don't see how that doesn't compare to boasting or coveting a high "Average Views" stat. If all things were equal, high average views would indicate nothing more than popularity...but as it is, all things are not equal. It depends on subject matter more than anything, (skill, access, kit, other things..)

Whether we care to admit it Tom. (And most of us won't) One of the bigger reasons anyone takes pictures is so that people will look at them and like them. If this wasn't the case, and we all just shot "for personal enjoyment" then none of us would upload to anet or JP and none of us would post the links to our pictures in the sticky thread here the minute they get accepted. As far as popularity goes, there are a lot of things that go into making a pic popular. Aircraft, place, where it was shot from but there is also the skill factor. These all make up the equation. I have to agree at times I get a little baffled as to why cabin shots are so popular but that is how it is. Your Thai shot that got over 40K hits is a good example. Your skill and other factors came into place and you took a great photo, hence the people want to look at it.

And, as much as I might find "card dumping" annoying to look at, at the end of the day, those that have uploaded in volume can at least say they've shared their passion for the hobby with others (even if they've put me, or you, or someone to sleep), but someone that holds back uploading to have a "high average" ??? what are they sharing? Their stats? What validity do they gain through that?

Tom you can share your passion for this hobby without uploading the same aircraft five times from the same airport at the same spot at the same angle. Come on. I see photogs that do this and it has nothing to do with anything but driving up pic count for status. I am surprised the anet screeners even allow that. If you catch a special scheme or something that is great there is no reason on this earth to upload it again unless maybe you are at a different airport. You know what Tom. You don't have to shoot everything that goes by. You can actually put the camera down when the same B6 scarebus goes by that you have seen half a million times.

Inflated Average Views by non participation... just another side of the coin to spamming the database with thousands of shots really (*if* the reason is to brag about numbers...and I am not sure that is everyone's motivation).

I disagree with this theory Tom. It is not non-participation it is originality. How fun would the DB be if everyone uploaded everything they shot? There would be so much WN and B6 and other boring stuff there wouldn't be enough time in the day to look at anything. Not to mention the queue would be 20000 pics to be screened at any given time. After you have seen 10 or 20 regular scheme WN or blue and white A320s it's enough, if you catch a special WN scheme fine by all means upload it but keep it somewhat interesting.

Well said Tom. What it comes down to is shooting what YOU enjoy shooting and uploading what YOU enjoy. If you start shooting or uploading only what you think someone else might want to see, something that will get you high hits or just to pump up your quantity than you've lost the whole concept of this hobby....personal enjoyment.

So why do you or any of us upload then? Why do you sell slides? If this hobby is just about shooting pics we like to look at and the friends around us when we shoot them why do we go home and edit and upload them? Mike I get enjoyment from all aspects of the hobby, going to the airport, taking the pics, the people that share the hobby with me. BUT, I also enjoy people looking at my pics, adding them to their albums, emailing me to buy prints, even when someone here at work looks at a pic of mine on the screen and likes it. It's all part of the equation. I don't know why people have to deny this fact and proclaim it's just about the people and your own satisfaction but I don't buy it. The facts on both the two big sites (anet and JP) say otherwise.

mirrodie

2006-11-03, 10:47 AM

this discussion has expanded beyond the limits of my cerebral capacity.

I upload what I love, that's it. But I have diverse tastes, as you can tell by looking at my pics, hence I upload a lot of different angles, etc. I am passionate about my photos but once it comes to putting them on Anets DB, I am realizing that my goals differ from that of Anet, so I move forward. I shoot what I love and upload to a site that recognizes passion of aviation.

I have simple goals.

a) to upload shots that I love.

b) to have Anets highest rejection rate.

I already fulfilled my third goal, which only became a goal after Nik pointed it out. ;)...which was to have Anets most notorious and controversial reject. It was uploaded with good intention, (ie. a different motive for a beach that is shot to death) but in the END it was poorly received by some screener.

Life's too short.... shoot pics and have a ball

T-Bird76

2006-11-03, 10:58 AM

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-03, 11:27 AM

Hits, most photos, going for side-ons, going for artistic shots, getting your first and only photo accepted ever, or whatever else might be your motivation, I think the important thing is that we are DOING something in this hobby, in the many ways there are to pratice and enjoy it.

There's no right or wrong with any of it. It's not even what Anet tells us it is.

However, I'd break it down like this: There are people who shoot planes, and there are photographers. One takes pictures to doucment planes (foir collective or historial reasons), and the other tries to create artistic expression whether it be for personal collection and display, or sharing on the internet, etc.

Airliners.net is actually geared more towards the doumentation, which is why we see the conflicts of motive and so forth.

I understand the feeling of someone getting slightly frustrated when a photo that "deserves" more attention gets pushed back in the listing by other "boring" photos, but keep inmind that there are also people out there who get eqaully as frustrated by the "registration-less" sunset photos. Also keep in mind that some people search through the photo databses through different ways of sorting the shots, so the "pushing back" doesn't affect the photo and the people viewing them as much as you might think.

The thing that excites me is that everyone here has a different level of interest in the variables of uploading....whether they be getting the most photos, hits, unqiue aircraft, etc. One person might be cautious with uploading to only their best work, while the next person, the person that the otehr guy was standing RIGHT next to at Howard Beach, wants as many of his shots as possible to be represented and archived in an onlien database.

That's what I love. We all do our own thing and we all still hang out in the same places, on the smae sites, and still meet up for dinner together once the sun goes down.

mikephotos

2006-11-03, 12:59 PM

So why do you or any of us upload then? Why do you sell slides? If this hobby is just about shooting pics we like to look at and the friends around us when we shoot them why do we go home and edit and upload them? Mike I get enjoyment from all aspects of the hobby, going to the airport, taking the pics, the people that share the hobby with me. BUT, I also enjoy people looking at my pics, adding them to their albums, emailing me to buy prints, even when someone here at work looks at a pic of mine on the screen and likes it. It's all part of the equation. I don't know why people have to deny this fact and proclaim it's just about the people and your own satisfaction but I don't buy it. The facts on both the two big sites (anet and JP) say otherwise.

That's the thing Nick. I've been doing this for many many years before ANET/Jetphotos and will do it for years (if I'm still alive) after. You could tell me that I can never sell/trade a slide ever again or never upload/show a picture to anyone and you know what, I'd still shoot 80 rolls of Kodachrome on a outing at LAX/MIA/whereever. Why? I f'in enjoy it. I work my butt off during the week, I care and support a wife and 3 kids and it's my way of relaxing. It's nice to have but I don't need ANET/Jetphotos/My site/any other site to still enjoy this hobby.

Sure, I upload to share my photos and love doing so but I DO NOT shoot only because of ANET/Jetphotos/uploading like a lot of people do. If those sites shut down today, I would still be shooting like always, nothing at all would change because I do this for me, myself and I. You have to remember, I started shooting (like some of us here) waaaaay before the internet and uploading pics. No one is saying that uploading is not part of the enjoyment nowadays but for the true enthusiast it's NOT the only enjoyment.

Now, to more important things...when the F are we going to meet up and shoot :)

Mike

mikephotos

2006-11-03, 01:31 PM

b) to have Anets highest rejection rate.

Mario my good friend you have achieved the ultimate rejection anyone on this earth that has ever wanted to upload a shot to A.net. I quote Johan "The photo is crap." That is a badge of honor that you should wear proudly!

Mario is too modest to show his award certificate so let me do the honors... :lol:

http://www.mikephotos.net/forum/marioaward.jpg

Mike

mirrodie

2006-11-03, 02:10 PM

Sniff, sniff,....I,... I,

I don't know what to say.

YOu like me, you really like me.

Mellyrose

2006-11-03, 02:30 PM

Hahahah! And I'd like to present the post of the week award to Mike McLaughlin! :)

mikephotos

2006-11-03, 02:41 PM

Sniff, sniff,....I,... I,

I don't know what to say.
YOu like me, you really like me.

What's not to like. Anyone who takes great pics is okay in my book. Even guys like Nick who can't take great pics are cool ;)

I never said you had to. I just wish we would be a little more truthful about this topic. There is nothing wrong with uploading to anet or JP but be honest. We all get a level of satisfaction when our pic gets accepted and then takes the next step and gets a lot of hits. Then the ultimate step of getting a request to buy it. We all strive for this and it's ok to do so in addition to enjoying the people and your own photos.

Who's not being truthful? I never said uploading, getting the hits, etc. is not fun/satisifing but (to me) it's not everything. I'm just saying don't base your whole hobby/shooting style around it, that's all.

Whenever I get an invite!

What are you doing early Sunday morning? I might go out and grab a few arrivals depending on which runway is in use. Call me.

Mike get is right. Johan called it an "incredible crappy photo"!

Corrected, hit refresh :)

Mike

NIKV69

2006-11-03, 02:46 PM

Well it's nice to see a long post that I took the time to write out has been deleted and the email I got gave me a multiple of reasons but was not very specific. Once again I find this whole anet database issue to be tiring. In the email I got from the mods there was a quote from someone that responded to me that seems to think that the anet DB is full of pics that are only in the DB cause they have been photoshopped to death. If that is the thinking well I will just cease to bother to voice my opinions. It seems that anet will always be the target of people here and be accused of being bad for photogs and bad for the reasons we shoot but like I have said the fact remains that everyone uses anet as their primary place to upload photos. Seems very hypocritical to me. I will cease to voice my opinion because it has become a waste of time, time which I can be using to go shoot and edit and enjoy the hobby in my own way.

Cheers.

mirrodie

2006-11-03, 02:59 PM

Yeah Nik, sorry about that.

Talking specifics, realize that when I moderate on Anet and here, the templates are different and sometimes confusing. So when I went to reply to your post, I ended up toolishly typing OVER what you wrote. SNAFU.

mea culpa.

Back on topic, I wrote that I agree that anet demands certain things. BUT

You say high quality photos and that is where I disagree. Anet does not want high quality photos as much as it demands quality photos that are PSed to a certain standard. That is a fact. There are a large amount of high quality photos that are rejected because they are not photoshopped in a way that Anet likes. Sorry but that is fact.

And to support that fact:
I'll prove that very simply....I've uploaded a photo, had it rejected for soft just changed how it was PSed and it was accepted. That supports what I am saying.

The quality of the photoshopping was key, not the quality of the photo.

Nik, I don't give a toss about it anymore but here is one other thing to consider. Maybe some of the users here post their feelings about Anet just to get a rise out of you, since you think the sun rises and sets down in Anets and Johans pants?? ;)

I think we just like getting a Nik rant every once in a while

NIKV69

2006-11-03, 03:16 PM

Talking specifics, realize that when I moderate on Anet and here, the templates are different and sometimes confusing. So when I went to reply to your post, I ended up toolishly typing OVER what you wrote. SNAFU

That's great but I still have no idea what you are talking about or why my post was deleted.

Nik, I don't give a toss about it anymore but here is one other thing to consider. Maybe some of the users here post their feelings about Anet just to get a rise out of you, since you think the sun rises and sets down in Anets and Johans pants??

I don't think the sun rises and shines off of anyone, I just accept the fact that it is the best site of it's kind and that everyone here uploads there. The fact that the site would like you to level and remove some dustspots in addition to sharpening doesn't mean that the site doesn't want your pictures. Why was PS created? To do the same thing airbrushng and other methods of improving pictures shot on film was. Nothing more. Every magazine did these same things to pictures taken on film before the boom of digital. They just want the best possible pic. Doesn't mean they are discouraging photography or people adding their photos.

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-03, 03:20 PM

Nick, I sent you an email explaning it more detail. If you have further questions based on that, please just reply and I'll try help you as best as I can.

mirrodie

2006-11-03, 03:45 PM

I love you Nick, you are so passionate and protective of Anet :)

relax, we enjoy the occasional Nick rant just as much as you enjoyed "Moon Over Maho Beach."

up for shooting this Monday?

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-03, 04:09 PM

It seems that anet will always be the target of people here and be accused of being bad for photogs and bad for the reasons we shoot but like I have said the fact remains that everyone uses anet as their primary place to upload photos.

Whenever you have anything that involves rejections of any kind, you're going ot get complaints, no matter what amazing rules Anet implements. There iwll always be rejections and everyone will have something to say about them.

Tom_Turner

2006-11-04, 12:05 AM

[quote="NIKV69"]

<<Whether we care to admit it Tom. (And most of us won't) One of the bigger reasons anyone takes pictures is so that people will look at them and like them. If this wasn't the case, and we all just shot "for personal enjoyment" then none of us would upload to anet or JP and none of us would post the links to our pictures in the sticky thread here the minute they get accepted. >>

I don't post in the "sticky" thread.. :) but I did notice in looking up the outside links to my images on A.net, that NYCAv does generate decent traffic to A.net shots.

I think you make a fair point Nick. But, "Personal enjoyment" *is* how alot of guys got started that like aviation and bought a cheap camera and went to airports to take some pictures for themselves. (Heck, I still occasionally meet guys, even these days around JFK, LGA and EWR that still shoot prints and they don't have access to the internet at all).

Since then, well, Al Gore created the Internet.

And Digital photography made taking "good" pictures easier.

I will admit being highly motivated by A.net over the years. (I had to be...considering my mountain of rejections..:) ) However, the initial reason was seeing what nice work the NYCBoyz were doing, but that had to do generally with the internet, not exclusively A.net. Alot of the "old timers" had their own personal sites back around the time of A.net's inception.

Yes, A.net did inspire me to start shooting.

However, I was basically a dedicated spotter since 1968.

<<Tom you can share your passion for this hobby without uploading the same aircraft five times from the same airport at the same spot at the same angle.>>

No doubt about that Nick. I think we are in agreement :)

Without travelling though, I will take our area as the example I would know best....and suggest that the "spots" around JFK/LGA/EWR are limited. There are some variations, but we're looking at similar shots..and not only that, at one time most of the spots used now actually had to be "found". There are a set of folks that "discovered" those spots in recent years, and before that most of those spots (or similar) were "discovered" previously. It's kinda like Christopher Columbus...was he first? :)

But in any event, it wasn't simply a case of logging into A.net/JP/NYCAv/Photovation etc. and have 15 guys every weekend converge on known spots - thats contributing to the mass uploading people here are expressing displeasure in seeing and I suppose depressing more selective shots.

A.net is popular; the hobby keeps growing. Does it matter if one guy uploads 50 shots from one day, or 5 guys upload 10 shots each from the same day?

We can wish all we want that there should be 200 hundred folks show up at Planeview and then think they shouldn't upload their shots, but guess what.... if NYCAviation and the Port Authority sponsored a bus tour every weekend of the ramps at JFK and LGA you'd have the same result on the ramp as you see from the perimeter. And, if we ever get viewing terraces open again, you'll see the same thing there.

But what is the alternative? Not help people out? Show people spots and give them contacts on the understanding they won't upload in mass?

Does it become pointless then to upload alot similar shots?... yeah, its begging the question, I agree... One of the reasons I do alot of Maritime Photography in my spare time now instead and I still am inspired to shoot at the heliports. JFK and LGA seem in good hands these days...even amongst the "boring" shots, people are kicking ass out there now.

<<Come on. I see photogs that do this and it has nothing to do with anything but driving up pic count for status.>>

Maybe your right. Or maybe they want to make photo sales... I don't know..

<<I am surprised the anet screeners even allow that.>>

You can't underestimate the vanity factor. If A.net drives 600 newbies into uploading elsewhere guess what happens? Those photographers will go elsewhere to genuflect upon their creations....

<<You know what Tom. You don't have to shoot everything that goes by. You can actually put the camera down when the same B6 scarebus goes by that you have seen half a million times.>>

Hey, my camera's shutter is not broken since I bought it in 2001. There's a reason for that... :)

<< How fun would the DB be if everyone uploaded everything they shot? There would be so much WN and B6 and other boring stuff>>

I don't disagree really.. and Amsterdam, St Maarten, Heathrow..and JFK/LGA nowadays...its all arguably "overshot". Hard to say where's its all going.

<<I don't know why people have to deny this fact and proclaim it's just about the people and your own satisfaction but I don't buy it. The facts on both the two big sites (anet and JP) say otherwise.>>

I go for the planes and not the people..but having said that, my trips out to JFK were sparse this summer..and three of the best times were hanging out with you at Howard Beach, Mario at the cargo area, and Phil & Tommy at Bayswater... short and sweet to be sure. but those were nice times.

Tom_Turner

2006-11-04, 12:41 AM

[How fun would the DB be if everyone uploaded everything they shot? There would be so much WN and B6 and other boring stuff there wouldn't be enough time in the day to look at anything. Not to mention the queue would be 20000 pics to be screened at any given time.

Well, thats ironically perhaps how other sites (JP, ATI etc), are one of the best things that ever happened to A.net. The popularity of the hobby as it relates to uploading shots to the internet just exploded.. If JP or similar did not exist, the sheet volume of dropped into the upload queue would be unmanagable. and, too, you'd have hundreds of disgruntled moaning, whining attacks on the screeners, demands that things be done differently and all the rest you already have, but it'd be magnified beyond belief. Either that, or shots would be added every minute, and no views due to absolute saturation.. :)

Its a compliment to A.net as well, that its influence is so strong, much is simply a copy of that site in terms of content.. as you say, much of it is just common sense and wisdom.. level the horizon and so on...that helped improve many of us in some basic skills...but I still feel an opportunity may have been lost in there somewhere for an alternative...slightly different emphasis in aesthetics....but thats another topic..

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-04, 12:42 AM

I see photogs that do this and it has nothing to do with anything but driving up pic count for status. I am surprised the anet screeners even allow that.

Tom you can share your passion for this hobby without uploading the same aircraft five times from the same airport at the same spot at the same angle.

The facts on both the two big sites (anet and JP) say otherwise.

What “facts” are you talking about when you say it's obvious they do it only for status? Status of what?

Honestly, Nick, you always seem to go back to the hits and Anet status stuff. There are many other reasons that people upload their photos.

Like Tom Turner said, maybe they are looking for photo sales. I've seen and I would call it fact that the more you upload and the more recent you keep your portfolio on the databases, the more sales you'll get.

Either way, it shouldn't have to be explained. I don't see what the actual PROBLEM is with someone posting for example, a shot of N504JB from a rear 3/4 angle from the cargo area on multiple days.

Does it hurt anyone in any way? Why does it bother you so much? If you think it’s boring, then don’t click on it.

I don't know why people … proclaim it's just about the people and your own satisfaction but I don't buy it.

Why don’t you buy it? If Anet didn’t exist, I’d still take pics, and I’m sure almost everyone else here would, too. Do you think we’re all lying?

NIKV69

2006-11-04, 02:01 AM

What “facts” are you talking about when you say it's obvious they do it only for status? Status of what?

Come on Phil. You just the other day used the famous. "How many pics do you have on anet?" Ever since I met the area group this phrase has been used as a way to give credibilty to peoples opinions on anet, how anet screens etc. I am not saying you personally do this but your remark in that thread the other day on anet whether consciously or unconsciously is used in this fashion. In fact my first slide show dinner I was asked how many pics I had in the DB by someone who shall remain nameless. This was asked while the person asking knew the answer already. Plenty around here know that for a few people around here total pics in the anet DB equals some sort of higher status. If you don't know the meaning of the word "status" in this context I can't help you, but this thinking is total BS. If you also don't see the problem with someone uploading the same pic of shades of blue from the same angle sitting on the ramp multiple times well again I can't help you. It wastes space, screeners screening time and our time. There are thousands of other planes out there and 400 other B6 AC to shoot. Go shoot them.

mirrodie

2006-11-04, 10:09 AM

"How many pics do you have on anet?" Ever since I met the area group this phrase has been used as a way to give credibilty to peoples opinions on anet, how anet screens etc.

THat's all old rhetoric. :roll:
"how many pics do you have on anet?"
"how many hits do you have on anet?"

When you can start saying
"how many ultimate rejections have you had by Johan",
baby, now you are in a class all your own. I push myself and push the limits beyond what some website tells me.

NIKV69

2006-11-04, 12:22 PM

Ok, I had to just post the link. Scroll down to the mighty Johan! Too funny.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/av ... ain/229974 (http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/229974)

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-04, 12:35 PM

You just the other day used the famous. "How many pics do you have on anet?" ... this phrase has been used as a way to give credibilty ... your remark in that thread the other day on anet whether consciously or unconsciously is used in this fashion

No, he was complaining about the screening process. I was asking that o tsee how much experience he might have with Anet's screening process. It had nothing to do with questioning his credibility as an aviaiton photographer. It was an Anet discussion abotu Anet, andmy comment pertained to that. So, it doesn't even apply here.

If you don't know the meaning of the word "status" in this context I can't help you

Ok, here's the deal with status. I'd hate to drag his name into it, but I'm going to use Art Brett.

Do I have a lot of respect for him becuase he's got 5,000 Anet shots? Yes.

But, if he didn't upload to Anet at all, I'd still have the smae amountof respect for him, becuase he'd still have amillion shots (whether he uploads them or not), he has been doing this for so long and has shots that I love seeing from before I was born, and he's one of the nicest people I've ever met.

On the flip side, I can think of a couple people who have MANY MANY shots on Anet but have zero status in my mind.

My point is that Anet can contribute, you don't earn status just from anythign pertianing to Anet. It takes a lot more.

If you also don't see the problem with someone uploading the same pic of shades of blue from the same angle sitting on the ramp multiple times well again I can't help you. It wastes space, screeners screening time and our time.

This, you need to explain more. Because if it was a problem, they'd make more rules preventing it. It doesn't waste the screeners' time any more thanpeople uplaoding bad shots do, which is by the thousands.

In fact, Anet has a bad_common and bad_double rejection to deal with that. So if it still gets accepted, it obviously can't be that big of a problem.

Why does YOUR opinion of what wastes screeners' time matter so much in a hobby where the goals for being in it is so diverse?

There are thousands of other planes out there and 400 other B6 AC to shoot. Go shoot them.

Maybe that's not what people's goals are in this hobby. Maybe they want to keep their photos as current as can be, uploading newer photos of something or from a different angle so to have the most up to date stuff regardless ofwhat they might have previously uploaded.

NIKV69

2006-11-04, 02:22 PM

No, he was complaining about the screening process. I was asking that o tsee how much experience he might have with Anet's screening process. It had nothing to do with questioning his credibility as an aviaiton photographer. It was an Anet discussion abotu Anet, andmy comment pertained to that. So, it doesn't even apply here.

Just because he doesn't have any pics in the DB doesn't mean he can't voice an opinion Phil. Which is what your comment was saying whether directly or indirectly. How many people that upload to JP lurk in that forum? I would think a few. It borders on eliteism thinking and even if you meant it another way why would you not just ask him how someone with no uploads can voice an opinion on the screening process? Why do you have to ask him "How many pics do you have in DB?" When it was clear you already knew the answer to the question? It's clear you were trying to lower his credibility as #1 a photog and #2 as a member of a site with a complaint just because he hasn't gotten a pic accepted.

Ok, here's the deal with status. I'd hate to drag his name into it, but I'm going to use Art Brett.

Arts name doesn't belong in this thread. His # of pics on anet is irrevleant. He has never used the "How many pics do you have on anet" routine and he is one of the most down to earth people. He treats everyone equal regardless of their success rate on anet. Which he proved with me. He treats me the same way since I had no pics in the DB as now.

This, you need to explain more. Because if it was a problem, they'd make more rules preventing it. It doesn't waste the screeners' time any more thanpeople uplaoding bad shots do, which is by the thousands.

They really need to make a rule. Shooting the same regi at the same airport even on different days is ridicoulus. I mean if it is from an entirely different angle I can see maybe allowing 2 of the same shot but 4 or 5 from the same motiv and angle?? It's lunacy.

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-04, 02:50 PM

Just because he doesn't have any pics in the DB doesn't mean he can't voice an opinion Phil. Which is what your comment was saying whether directly or indirectly.

Nick, I know why I asked that question, and if I tellyou what I meant, then that's what I menat. I'll admit anything,a ndthere is no need ot further analyze or tell me what I menat when I said something.

I asked him that because I was curious about howmuch experience he had uploading. Granted, a better question would have been "Have you ever tried uploading to Anet before?" as his complaints about the screening system seemed like he didn't know anything about it, which would make me wonder why he was complaining about it so.

Why do you have to ask him "How many pics do you have in DB?" When it was clear you already knew the answer to the question?

Wrong again. I had no idea who that guy was. It culd have been Baily's username for all I knew. I don't know if the guy has 8,000 shots or never even saw the uplaodpage, which is why I asked.

Suggesting otherwise wouldbe calling me a liar. Do not do that.

Arts name doesn't belong in this thread.

My reference to Art was how OTHERpeopel treat HIM becuase of how many photos he has, not how he treats other people.

He treats me the same way since I had no pics in the DB as now.

Ok, we agreethere. No one said he didn't. Why did you even say that?

The points I was making was debunking that people look up to other photographers becuaseof how many shots they have on anet. You're talking about how photographers with a lot of shots look down onother people. Two different things.

They really need to make a rule. Shooting the same regi at the same airport even on different days is ridicoulus...It's lunacy.

And that is your opinion. I think it's just a shame that you are pushing that onto other peopel and not being more accepting of how other people want to practice the hobby.

NIKV69

2006-11-04, 02:57 PM

The points I was making was debunking that people look up to other photographers becuaseof how many shots they have on anet. You're talking about how photographers with a lot of shots look down onother people. Two different things.

Exactly. we were talking about the ones who look down on other people with little or none. Which is why bringing Art into the mix didn't make sense to me.

And that is your opinion. I think it's just a shame that you are pushing that onto other peopel and not being more accepting of how other people want to practice the hobby.

I am not pushing anything on anybody but when you see someone with the same exact aircraft from the same exact angle at the same airport even on different days it has nothing to do with practicing the hobby. It's overkill and padding your photo count. Nothing more, nothing less. You also seem to be forgetting that it is your friend Tommy who started this thread with some of the same views toward this practice. Go back to the beginning and read what he had to say.

Mellyrose

2006-11-04, 02:59 PM

Just because it was "Phil's friend Tommy" who started the thread, doesn't mean he has to agree with everything he said. Everyone has their own opinions about these things. :-P

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-04, 03:07 PM

Exactly. we were talking about the ones who look down on other people with little or none.

It's what YOU were talking about, which is why that part of the disagreement came up. That part's over.

...when you see someone with the same exact aircraft from the same exact angle at the same airport even on different days it has nothing to do with practicing the hobby.

Says who? Peolpe can practice it anyway they want. You're still saying that people should practice it in the way that you see fit.

It's overkill and padding your photo count. Nothing more, nothing less.

How are you so sure that people who do that only do it to pad their photo count?

If it it was for photo count, what if they have a reason for doing it like promoting their work to be sold more?

You also seem to be forgetting that it is your friend Tommy who started this thread with some of the same views toward this practice. Go back to the beginning and read what he had to say.

Now you're adding an completely unnecessary personal touch to all of this. I don't even see what your point is there. Are you saying I'm supposed otbe agreeing with him? Or are you saying that I should be replyign to his posts the same way I'm replying to yours?

If it's the latter, it's because Tommy's not being as engaging, and if he was, I'dbe doing the smae thing to him.

nwafan20

2006-11-04, 03:15 PM

Just to step in here, I don't have that many shots on JP.net (none on anet) and I rarely get to go spotting, mabye a few times a year at max, so if there is a shot that I like, I will upload it since it's rare for me to go. Now, granted i'm not going to upload a shot of N223NW taken from the same angle on the same exact day, but if I happen to be out and N223NW comes in, I'm still going to upload it if it's a good shot, even if I already have 5 of it in the database.

Just my $.02

NIKV69

2006-11-04, 03:18 PM

Says who? Peolpe can practice it anyway they want. You're still saying that people should practice it in the way that you see fit.

Not at all shoot it all you want, there is just no need to upload it 5 times. Unless of course you want to brag that you have more pics on anet than someone else. Which is what it is for. What does uploading it multiple times do to help sales? It is the exact same picture.

Or are you saying that I should be replyign to his posts the same way I'm replying to yours?

No it just started to seem you were trying to make it look like I started this thread and that I was alone in this thinking.

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-04, 03:37 PM

What does uploading it multiple times do to help sales?

Because when a company does a search for photos, it's shown that they will go for photos that appear first in the listing, or the newest uploads. This is why.

Also, maybe the shooter like the newer shot better thanthe old one? This would NOt fall into the re-uplaod option, but the shootermight want to better represent their shot if that's what a client might want.

...there is just no need to upload it 5 times.

THAT is what I'm debating you on, though, Nick. Telling people how many shots they SHOULD uplaod of something IS telling them how to practice their hobby.

You haven't expalined why it actually BOTHERS you, and are just so final with it. I mention points but you ignore it and keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

You are ASSUMING that the person is doing it just for total photo count. How would you know what is going on in a person's head that you've probably never met before?

If it was to improve total photos, why are you ASSUMING that it's purely for the status? They might have other motivations.

You so deeply engage in debates on several sites, and it would be great if you actually tried to consider other people's ideas alittle bit more. I've never seen someone apply such attention to a discussion while being 100% closed-minded towards other thoughts. Your whole debate style is how to try to shoot down other people's disagreements with you, not to consider them and dispell with rationalization.

If you're going to keep saying that people SHOULDN'T upload more tha oneof the same plane at a time with no further explanation or logic, then let me know and I'll stop replying and wasting my time with your stubborness.

NIKV69

2006-11-04, 04:07 PM

Because when a company does a search for photos, it's shown that they will go for photos that appear first in the listing, or the newest uploads. This is why.

This may be half right. My maxjet shot is one of the first so thus it appears last and I have gotten three requests for it. I just sold a G4 shot to an airport for a presentation that is two years old, so that pic would be on the bottom of the list. I think Airlines and the like browse the DB a little more thouroughly than you give them credit for.

THAT is what I'm debating you on, though, Nick. Telling people how many shots they SHOULD uplaod of something IS telling them how to practice their hobby.

Phil you have to really get off your horse. I have never said anything like this. It has nothing to do with practicing the hobby. In fact this whole drama about how people enjoy the hobby, how it's about the people and not the hits is so overstated. Put it to bed. Nobody needs a guide on how this hobby should be practiced. All of us here were not even born when it started and we will all be long gone and it will still be going on so let's leave it at that. As far the topic that was started in this thread I believe Tommy is spot on.

You so deeply engage in debates on several sites, and it would be great if you actually tried to consider other people's ideas alittle bit more. I've never seen someone apply such attention to a discussion while being 100% closed-minded towards other thoughts. Your whole debate style is how to try to shoot down other people's disagreements with you, not to consider them and dispell with rationalization

Phil just as you have your thoughts on what is most important in this hobby other people too have theirs. Just as you don't believe in "getting lost in the upload queue" there are some that like to upload to anet and succeed and get aggravated when they don't. It was this aggravation that all the BS about the anet screening policy and other conspiracy crap was born. Just because this is how you felt didn't mean you were getting lost in the upload queue at all. I also remember certain people here saying that if you cared about the upload queue on anet that much you "lost sight of the hobby" I found this to be BS and ridicouolous. It is you that said that everyone practices this hobby a little differntly right? I don't try to shoot anybody down here but IMO opinion people that upload the same regi needlessly (and lets call it 4 to 5 times at the same airport to give some benefit of the doubt) you are doing it simply to boost pic count. It isn't a way of self expression of the hobby, it is not to keep the pic current so potential buyers of a print will see it first when they scroll down either.

Mellyrose

2006-11-04, 04:14 PM

Nick...I think you're a bit out of line throwing around accusations toward people you don't even know on these upload sites. You have no idea what their M.O.'s are, nor should it matter to you. While you're claiming that "Nobody needs a guide on how this hobby should be practiced" you seem to be doing a sufficient job of penning the book yourself.

mirrodie

2006-11-04, 04:19 PM

Phil you have to really get off your horse.

And you need to get your head out of Johan's lap!

Sorry but a bit of humor needs to be injected here! This debate is steamy!

PhilDernerJr

2006-11-04, 04:19 PM

Horse? I'm the one saying that people should be allowed to upload what they want. Anet already has rules in place to prevnet excessive uploading.

As for "lost in the upload queue", I personally believe that people who take the uplaod queue too seriously are losing sight of why they got into this in the first place. I stand by my view, but I don't say that Anet should create rules based on my viewws or push my views on others.

NIKV69

2006-11-04, 04:32 PM

And you need to get your head out of Johan's lap!

LOLOL, good one Mario. Not to mention your Ninja cat makes me laugh.

you seem to be doing a sufficient job of penning the book yourself.

Not really, just pointing out that uploading the same regi from the exact same angle from the same airport 5 times is pointless. Except to boost pic count and maybe to get your name in the "top uploaders" part of the home screen. I never have said how or what people should do. I find it a little needless to see the same pic 5 times with not so much as a angle change or a different motive or anything.

T-Bird76

2006-11-04, 08:27 PM

Ok here are my thoughts on this topic, first I can't believe so much time was wasted on this topic today when it was such a nice day and you could have BEEN OUT SPOTTING!!!! :wink: :wink: j/k I agree with both Phil and Nick on the points they made. First, I like Phil believe everyone shoots and uploads for their own reasons, whatever reasons those are I don't care, everyone has their own personal choices and they should enjoy their hobby. As an example today I was spotting with someone from LA and he just loves the Euro stuff we see each and every time we go to JFK, he was shooting everything and I wasn't. But he loved what he was seeing and that's cool; all of us had a good time.

Nick has a point that there are people who shoot everything in the sky over and over and over and over again and upload it. My point from where I was coming from based off my own tastes is that it’s a waste. If you’re a professional photographer and not a newbie then you should have the good taste to limit what you upload if you know we’ve seen it before, self-screening needs to be done allot more.

I don’t believe in the same rule though for newbies. We have a lot of new guys here that have been taking some really good stuff, as an example Gordon has a really keen eye. Since he is limited to what he uploads when someone comes along and dumps 10 shots of an American 757 from Costco for example it pushes good unique and new photographers photos down the line where not everyone may get the chance to see them. Those are the motives I don't like. Is there a right or wrong answer? No there really isn't, the upload rules say you can upload what you like so hey go ahead. It comes down to basic manners. Take a look at what you have, what you’ve uploaded and ask yourself how does this contribute to the enjoyment of the hobby for others. There’s nothing wrong with shotting everything from an RJ to a Jumbo but this is hobby that is shared by many people, let everyone enjoy it.