Strong Economy

[Novanglus]

The Dow reaches a new record, oil prices dropping, and it seems to me as though the economy is doing a lot better than the media is implying.

Granted, the price of oil isn't too stable, and all it would take is a large terror attack or some strong shoving from OPEC and maybe the market wouldn't be doing as strong, but still, things are going well.

Real Estate isn't doing the greatest, but it's a normal, forecasted up and down in that market.

So why does the media act like we're upon another recession? Oh, it's because the media is run by liberals, and God forbid something good be happening as we near the end of the Bush era. "Quick, things are going well...let's convince the nation that hard times are right around the corner!"

Sad.

[hiss srq]

yeah you hit the nail on the head liberal media is all about hype they have very minimal footing in life so they have to stir pots to gain support or attention.

[moose135]

The Media is only as liberal as its conservative owners allow it to be.

The newspaper advertising business affords a good look at the economy as a whole and in individual sectors. A few highlights...
- The automotive category is on an extended downturn as sales continue to be soft, especially for larger cars and SUVs
- Real Estate is down as rising interest rates have slowed the market. Long Island is especially hard hit with high cost of living, taxes, etc.
- Retail is down - consolidations (department stores, for example) have resulted in fewer, larger companies. Layoffs in high-tech, manufacturing and other market segments (as those jobs move overseas, or due to consolidation or cost-cutting) result in reduced consumer spending
Yes, for the top end, the economy is doing well. For the vast majority of people, that isn't the case. Little or no increases in wages, continued cost-cutting (to win favor with Wall Street) that results in fewer, lower-paying jobs, loss of promised pension programs all result in a widening gap between the "everyday" worker and the highest echelons of society. For many the "American Dream" is dead.

We see this every day in the airline industry - companies laying off workers, using bankruptcy to cancel pension plans while executives walk away with large bonuses, pressure to do more with less time and staff all lead to the situation we find ourselves in today.

[PhilDernerJr]

Honestly, Moose, I think a lot of that is misleading.

What you mentioned about the auto industry is true in the sense that sales are down for larger vehicles and SUVs. That doesn't mean that industry is doing bad. It's just a market shift. Though gas prices are lower, the effects from the higher prices are still upon us...which just means that people are buying smaller, more fuel efficient cars. It's doesn't mean the industry is doing bad, but just the individual companies that can't keep up with the trends are negatively affected.

I've not heard that retail is down. You're right that their are larger companies, but the consolidation of bigger retail companies has been happening for decades....I even remember Ron Howard's Dad complaining about bigger hardware stores on Happy Days. We are now entering the earlier than ever holiday season...retail is on its way even higher.

I thought the airline industry was bouncing back, too, no? Things have been looking up from the financial reports I've been hearing about.

No matter how great the economy is doing, some areas of it will not be doing as well. Each industry has its own cycle lengths, and when it comes together for most, some will still be left out.

[T-Bird76]

yeah you hit the nail on the head liberal media is all about hype they have very minimal footing in life so they have to stir pots to gain support or attention.

Hiss just some food for thought could you please stop posting in every thread without some substance to your posts???

The Dow is only "ONE" indication of how the economy is doing. While I don't think our economy is in a recession growth is slowing. The prolonged high price of fuel has had a dramatic effect on the economy.

As Moose pointed out some already, last month also saw a huge amount of layoffs across the nation.

Real estate is one of the biggest driving forces behind our economy. New construction is like a domino effect. When it slows there are hundreds of industries that slow as well. Take that into effect and looking at the big picture people will simple have less money to spend.

I think however it is dumb to blame the current Administration. Policies put in place by the Federal Gov't often take years to impact on the economy. Its economics 101, the economy is a cycle; it grows, peaks, shrinks, and grows again. The economy we saw in the 90s was a result of a wave of new technology (invented in the 80s) and progress that now has matured. As other leaps in technology and progress come around we'll see the economy grow again.

[T-Bird76]

What you mentioned about the auto industry is true in the sense that sales are down for larger vehicles and SUVs. That doesn't mean that industry is doing bad. It's just a market shift. Though gas prices are lower, the effects from the higher prices are still upon us...which just means that people are buying smaller, more fuel efficient cars. It's doesn't mean the industry is doing bad, but just the individual companies that can't keep up with the trends are negatively affected.

Phil you honestly need to restate your statment that the auto industry in this country is doing well, that's simply false. Sales are not just down for larger cars and SUVs. Sales at the big three are down across the board. The domestic auto makers here in the U.S are in the worst shape they have ever been. Both Ford and GM aren't to far from declaring Chap 11. GM’s subsidiary Delphi is already working under Chap 11. GM earlier in the year offered all of it factory workers buyouts in order to reduce staffing; Ford has just done the same. Nothing like that has ever happened in the U.S auto industry.

The failure of the U.S auto industry in this country would be a devastating blow to our economy with hundreds of thousands being out of work. While I do not think that will be the case, you can't say the big three are doing just fine because that is totally inaccurate.

[hiss srq]

and part of it is no one wants to work anymore. So if you cannot get quality work why not go someplace where you can find it. This nation is becoming a service based economy for a reason. Everyone wants to go out there and have it handed to them for minimal effort. You see it every day people come to this nation with nothing and make something of themselves. Meanwhile the average joe complains unfortuneately. My generation is a perfect example. We hit such an upturn in the economy during the Clinton administration because the goverment took care of everything for everyone and now we are a lazy people. Granted the upper levels have some corruption in them but there is a reason some are makeing it and others are not and it is not because everyone is corrupt. Alot of the top enders made it up there the hard way or thought for themselves. Some areas like the arlines and corruption in the top levels is just total crap like the top end at UAL or AA but in other industries it all makes sense. You get what you create and we created a lazy people. When people decide they want to work again things will get better. Let us look at oil for example. I do not agree that they should be doing what they are doing and the power to make as much as they make without a little regulation of how they make it but we could have more control over things if the liberals and treehuggers would allow us to tap into our own nations huge petroleum resources. So for them to put the hit me sign on GWB is just stupid. They want cheap oil etc etc... but we cannot so much as put a shovel in the dirt in someplaces with out Activist Annie comeing out and tossing a fit than shes gets to the gas pump and it is near 3 dollars a gallon and shes complaining about how rediculous it is. Well compromise is the issue. When people put in a honest days work they get an honest days pay. Unions kill business in alot of areas. I am not saying palces like the airlines do not need a union in place in some cases to hold it together and make it fair but for instance in Florida at the company I was with. It was a joke we would hire rampers they would go to school watch the videos etc. take the classes and than they get out on the ramp and oh my gosh you mean I have to get up into a bin and work or dump a lav?!! You mean I do not get to sit behind the desk and relax all day?! Come on! You cannot be serious and we are supposed to have pity on people who wont get out there and go an extra mile to save their lives

[PhilDernerJr]

I just got a new Razor cell phone that r0x0rs!!1!1 Does that count as a leap in technology?

But seriously, as I said, Real Estate is most certainly slowing down, but from what I've been reading (granted, MSN's Money Central isn't the be-all or end-all) it doesn't seem as though it's going to be as big of a dip as most think it is.

Working in the construction field (if you'd call it that), I'm seeing first hand that the architects and builders that are being hurt by this recent slowdown are the ones that just can't keep up, the folks that we fakers trying to make a quick buck. I'm no economist, but I think this is just a short shaking out of the posers.

[PhilDernerJr]

To add, a big example is the stone world. Even the Kiplinger Letter has been saying that one particularly strong hit area of the market is stone fabrication. Why? Because guys that had nothing but a handsaw and a garage were trying to compete with established fabricators....and succeeding. Now, the dealers, archs and builders are hiring the small shops are seeing the truth....and the only people in the stone industry doing bad are the ones that sucked anyway.

Similar things have been happening in developments as well. Though I don't want to name names here (PM me, I'll gladly name a couple), there are a few builders that are just losing out the more respected players in the industry. Wait six months until these guys have officially closed shop and the construction side of the industry will no longer be oversaturated and you'll see it start to recover.

Taxes are a good point, though, Moose and Tommy. Again, I'm not saying we are doing great, but it's just not as bad as implied.

[moose135]

Honestly, Moose, I think a lot of that is misleading.

In an article posted today:


WASHINGTON (Marke****ch) -- With Ford Motor Co. eliminating tens of thousands of jobs, U.S. corporate layoff announcements surged by 54% to 100,315 in September, according to a unscientific monthly tally by outplacement firm Challenger Gray & Christmas released Tuesday.
The 100,315 figure for layoff announcements was the most seen since January, and it marked the second straight month that such announcements had mushroomed. In July, job reductions totaled just 37,178. The figures are not seasonally adjusted.

The job reductions are increasingly being tied to the slowdown in the U.S. economy, said John Challenger, chief executive of the outplacement firm.
Cuts related to the housing slowdown are surfacing at companies such as Pulte Homes and do-it-yourself retailer Home Depot , he said. In addition, consumer-product companies announced 9,031 cuts in September. "Combined with still-low initial jobless claims in late September, we do not believe recent jobs-related reports point to a broad-based weakening in the labor market," said John Ryding, chief U.S. economist for Bear Stearns.

The report comes four days before the Labor Department releases its September jobs report. Economists are looking for another lukewarm month for hiring, with nonfarm payrolls expected to rise by about 125,000 after 128,000 jobs were created in August. The unemployment rate is expected to remain at 4.7%, near the lows of the past five years.

In the Challenger survey, September's total was 40% higher than the 71,836 layoffs recorded in September 2005, the firm said.
Job-reduction announcements rose 12% in the third quarter, reaching 202,771 from the second quarter's 180,580. For the year to date, layoffs are down 18% to 739,229 from the first nine months of 2005. By comparison, corporations announced 1.07 million total job cuts during all of 2005, the fifth straight year of more than 1 million.

In September, the auto industry announced plans to shed 33,745 jobs, the most for the industry since January's 36,299. So far in 2006, 111,642 job cuts have been announced by automakers and auto-parts manufacturers. The automotive cuts were dominated by suppliers, which are starting to feel the ripple effects from production cutbacks at Ford, General Motors Corp. and DaimlerChrysler, Challenger said. The computer industry planned to cut 10,600, mostly at Intel. The telecommunications industry announced job reductions of 10,059.

The Challenger report covers only a tiny fraction of those who lose their jobs each month. In July, for instance, a total of 1.42 million workers were discharged from their jobs involuntarily, about 1% of total employment, according to the latest data from the Labor Department. Twice as many workers quit their jobs voluntarily in July.

The layoff announcements tracked by Challenger could take place immediately or over time. The reductions could be accomplished by voluntary means such as retirements or workers leaving for other jobs. They could be offset by hiring in other divisions of a company.

[T-Bird76]

This nation is becoming a service based economy for a reason.

I can't believe I'm saying this but... Your 100% correct. We have moved away from a production based economy to a service based economy. Retail has replaced the factory worker as the biggest employees in the nation. As we want more and more the service industry will expand and grow. Its rather sad IMO

[NcSchu]

and part of it is no one wants to work anymore.

That's just a bit of a jump. I wouldn't say nobody wants to work. I think everybody wants to work, maybe not for the same reasons, but you have to admit that everyone loves to get that paycheck.

Personally I never listen to when people say that the economy is bad or good. It's one of those things that has so many variables that are all changing constantly, that it's impossible to sum up in a simply word like "bad" or "good". I never like to trust analysts either, they can't predict the future, only what we do now can set the future.

Oh, and does anybody notice that when the media criticizes republicans or bush people call them "liberal media" and when the vice versa happens they are called the opposite? I like getting much of my news from the BBC, that way I can see everything from an outside perspective.

Just my 2 cents..

[PhilDernerJr]

Moose had to kill it but shutting it down with an article disproving all. Come on man, trying to get some exciting convo goin! Besides, that's a liberal media artcile anyway. ;)

[hiss srq]

and part of it is no one wants to work anymore.

That's just a bit of a jump. I wouldn't say nobody wants to work. I think everybody wants to work, maybe not for the same reasons, but you have to admit that everyone loves to get that paycheck.

Personally I never listen to when people say that the economy is bad or good. It's one of those things that has so many variables that are all changing constantly, that it's impossible to sum up in a simply word like "bad" or "good". I never like to trust analysts either, they can't predict the future, only what we do now can set the future.

Oh, and does anybody notice that when the media criticizes republicans or bush people call them "liberal media" and when the vice versa happens they are called the opposite? I like getting much of my news from the BBC, that way I can see everything from an outside perspective.

Just my 2 cents..


Perhaps everyone wants to work but no one wants to put any effort in past bare minimal in this day and age.

[T-Bird76]

The illegal immigrant problem in this country is proof Americans don't want to work! We think some jobs are below us. I remember only a few years ago landscaper crews were full of American teens and college kids, now their all Mexican. Why because this is below little Johnny now. Hey when you have bills to pay you do what it takes, that's the American way, hard work!

[Midnight Mike]

The illegal immigrant problem in this country is proof Americans don't want to work! We think some jobs are below us. I remember only a few years ago landscaper crews were full of American teens and college kids, now their all Mexican. Why because this is below little Johnny now. Hey when you have bills to pay you do what it takes, that's the American way, hard work!

Tommy

Yes, no, maybe.

The Illegal Alien problem shows many things:

(1) Employers will do anything to pay the lowest possible wages,
(2) There are some jobs that people will not do at tooooo low of a wage.

For goodness sake, you have Illegal Aliens working as Construction Workers & the Meat Packing Industries, these are jobs that are high paying jobs, but, by hiring Illegals, the Industry was able to lower wages & push people out....

http://graphics10.nytimes.com/images/2006/06/19/business/0619-nat-sub3ILLEGALweb.jpg

[hiss srq]

Labor is "below" this generaqtion, mainly because most parents spoiled and lacished kids because of the short upturn during the Clintion era. Everyone had a sudden burst of money and so on and so fourth and people got lazy. It is not that they can hire them based on lower wages they can force them to live by but most do not wantto do those jobs because it requires LABOR! That is in where the issue is and those that go out there and do it and do it good they deserve to make the money. Bottom line, do not expect much from this spoiled generation because that might be asking too much or unfair to put responsibility of survival on their own on the kids sholders according to them. Daddy's little princess is going to be daddy's little broke loser in a few years because daddy's little girl is too good to do anything other than get her nails done and drive daddy's bmw around on his tab

[PhilDernerJr]

I was going to respond to Tomym with what Mike siad about companies going after the cheaper labor in order to compete.

The solution? Pay the immigrants more. If you force up wages of immigrants so to that of normal standards, there is no longer the incentive for companies to hire them, and they'll go back to skilled, American workers for production.

But then, how do you prevent companies from producing overseas and shipping it back? No idea. All of the solutions I can think of either restrict capitlism and other forms of trade, or there will be too many loopholes. Like I said, tight spot.

But in order to make higher wages worth it, we need some better goods to produce that are better than elsewhere in the world.

To do this, we need mroe engineers. We need our education system to step it up a notch.

But the big problem I see which also pertians to immigration and doesn't pertian to Mexico....are the foreigners who come to our nation to study. I have no problemw ith them coming here, in fact, I want them to. My issue lies with their visas expiring the second they leave school, and we send them back to their country to offer Pakistan or Thailand another freshly honed, American-educated engineer.

No only do we need to stop cancelling their visas, but we need a job program or some sort of incentive to get them to STAY HERE. We NEED them on our team.

[T-Bird76]

Mike my point is we as Americans are getting very lazy and picky when it comes to jobs. We rather sit home complaining then get off our asses and pick some carrots! Why simply is it that if the job pays crap money we think its below us?

[PhilDernerJr]

Mike my point is we as Americans are getting very lazy and picky when it comes to jobs. We rather sit home complaining then get off our asses and pick some carrots! Why simply is it that if the job pays crap money we think its below us?

I think that Americans do have that mentality, but as for this immigration issue, I don't think it applies, because a legally residing American can't support himself, much less raise a family, on $3 an hour.

[hiss srq]

but Mexican families somehow are surviving. If you need to do it you can do it. For how many years did people make it with the bare minmum for unfair pay etc etc... and some bacame massive. You make sense Phil but I just do not beleive it is excuse for Americans to not work or not do things to their best no matter what they are making an hour. If Julio can support 5 kids cutting grass for bare minimal whether it be day to day or not they manage to do it and you never see them complain about it and we have the ability to legally support ourselves by a better means than them and we moan groan etc etc.. .and they are smileing and greatful.

[T-Bird76]

[quote="T-Bird76":2719f]Mike my point is we as Americans are getting very lazy and picky when it comes to jobs. We rather sit home complaining then get off our asses and pick some carrots! Why simply is it that if the job pays crap money we think its below us?

I think that Americans do have that mentality, but as for this immigration issue, I don't think it applies, because a legally residing American can't support himself, much less raise a family, on $3 an hour.[/quote:2719f]

People can't support a family on 8 bucks an hour that Walmart pays either, but somehow we think that's better then picking carrots or collecting grass clippings. We need to stop this BS about being better then the next.

[hiss srq]

wow me and tommy agree this is getting frightening! :lol: :wink:

[T-Bird76]

but Mexican families somehow are surviving. If you need to do it you can do it. For how many years did people make it with the bare minmum for unfair pay etc etc... and some bacame massive. You make sense Phil but I just do not beleive it is excuse for Americans to not work or not do things to their best no matter what they are making an hour. If Julio can support 5 kids cutting grass for bare minimal whether it be day to day or not they manage to do it and you never see them complain about it and we have the ability to legally support ourselves by a better means than them and we moan groan etc etc.. .and they are smileing and greatful.

Bad example, most of that money is sent back to Mexico, living conditions are far far less costly then here. I'm not arguing the point about how much money you need to survive I think a core problem with our country right now is the down right ****ty work ethic that exists.

[PhilDernerJr]

The peopel making $8 an hour at Walmart arethere while they're in school or using it as a secondary income. That's not a production company either, which is where the wages we are dicussing is referring to.

The comparison would be factories and small task construction, where immigrant workers earn those smaller wages. These are companies where middle-class Americans used to work and raise their families with their job, earning a decent amount of money with benefits, a retirement plan and so forth.

[NcSchu]

If the government puts more pressure on companies then they won't have any incentive to hire illegal immigrants. By hiring them, companies don't have to pay them high wages nor do they have to supply health insurance or pay taxes, because all of them are undocumented. Stopping them from crossing the border won't help until we stop the reason they want to come here. Small tangent, but it would probably help our economy. More legal Americans that have jobs = more tax money for the gov't = less deficit (well..maybe) = more money to spend on goods. I'm not really an economics expert, but this is the way I look at it.

[PhilDernerJr]

But once the wages go up, then the cost of production goes up, and cost of living goes up.

[T-Bird76]

The people making $8 an hour at Walmart arethere while they're in school or using it as a secondary income. That's not a production company either, which is where the wages we are dicussing is referring to.

The comparison would be factories and small task construction, where immigrant workers earn those smaller wages. These are companies where middle-class Americans used to work and raise their families with their job, earning a decent amount of money with benefits, a retirement plan and so forth.

Phil outside the Tristate area Walmart in many cases is the sole employer. In towns all over the Midwest where a factory once employed the town a Walmart is now the sole employer. These people aren't working there for a second income or just a college job. They work there because they have no where else to work. Hence my example of a once production economy turning to a service based economy.

In many ways the fight going on with Walmart right now over worker rights reminds me of the early 20th century when workers weren't treated fairly. Yes I know its not the same but in spirit its the same.

The latest trick Walmart is up to is to begin to employee up to 40% part time workers for their entire work force. This way they don't have to pay benefits. Walmart is currently the largest employer in the nation. Think about the millions of people who will be without benefits.

[Mellyrose]

Tommy's just mad because his cousins in Ireland all work at Walmart.

[dlx737200]

Tommy's just mad because his cousins in Ireland all work at Walmart.

HAHAHAHAHA! Way to break the seriousness of this thread Mel!

-Justin :D

[NIKV69]

The latest trick Walmart is up to is to begin to employee up to 40% part time workers for their entire work force

Tommy it is not a trick it is a way to do business. If you don't want to work at Wal-Mart nobody has a gun to your head. Many of those part timers are retirees anyway. Don't try to paint Wal-mart as this big bad thing for employees. Like I said there is no gun pointed at your head to work there. They are the same as any other big retail operation, my mother was an executive with TSS and they did the same thing and how long ago was that?

[PhilDernerJr]

I agree with Nick. I don't blame Walmart. We live in capitalism and if a company has a way to make more money, then that's the point.

The thing to do is to remove the incentive for companies like Walmart to do that, and to give decent-paying jobs to the Americans who need them.

[T-Bird76]

Nick and Phil you both make one critical error in your statements about Capitalism. We do not live in a pure Capitalist society, our economy is regulated by the gov't therefore it is not a pure capitalist society.

Oh btw Nick your flip flopping. I said the same thing about the TSA, that no one is forcing them to stay at their jobs and you went on about how that was a thankless job, and that working with the public is hard and what not. Try to keep to one view.

There is a difference here that I really think the two of you need to do some research before making statements like "there is no gun pointed at your head to work here" and "if a company has a way to make more money, then that's the point. " In towns all over the Midwest where people have lived, raised a family, and worked all their life and all of a sudden bye bye Ford plant and now Walmart comes in and that's the only place hiring, where else do you go Nick? Please don't post that "oh you just move” That’s BS and something easier said then done. When there's only one company that's hiring you might as well have a gun pointed to your head if the you need to pay your mortgage.

Phil your statement lends the reader to believe you feel whatever a company has to do to make money they should be allowed to. Does that include changing accounting figures, moving operations overseas, incorporating overseas, and contracting out work to cheaper foreign labor? As I stated we do not live in a pure capitalist country, business has been and always will be regulated for the protection of the worker and society. Look back 120 years ago when we didn’t regulate company’s it wasn’t pretty.

There's also something called Social Responsibility that many companies follow, Walmart is not one of them or it doesn't appear so. Social Responsibility gives back to the communities they serve by helping the communities directly and also the workers. Many of Walmart's actions in the past 10 years have not been in favor of the community or the worker.

As far as saying Walmart is this big bad company, you know I believe they are, just like Ford, GM, Standard Oil, and the Railroads were in the early 20th century. Its narrow mined to believe a company can't employ modern day tactics to maximize profits at the expense of their people.

I don't shop at Walmart because of how they treat their people. Am I, one little person going to make a difference, no but it’s my principles and I stand by them. Will Walmart fail, no absolutely not. Sadly with all crap Walmart is dragging behind them, i.e. child labor in the Far East, lawsuits here for breaking workers rights they will continue to succeed. The mind of most American's towards Walmart goes something like this "oh that really is too bad.....WOW THAT'S A GREAT PRICE."

Walmart is an integral part of our economy but they need to be held to certain standards so that the people they serve are treated fairly.

[PhilDernerJr]

You grouped outsourcing to cheap foreign labor with switching account figures? One is illegal, and one is very common practice. One is flat out wrong, and the other we just wish that they wouldn't do it.

No one wants our companies to go overseas, but it's allowed. And you're right, until regulation is made that forces them to dootherwise, it can be labelled only as something that sucks for middle class workers.

I know we live in a regulated system. And because of that, we need to create regulation that prevents companies from paying immigrants less, forcing them to choosed more skilled workers.

We're on the same page, but the fix isn't getting mad at Walmart. The fix is taking advantage of the fact that we need to create regulation to prevent thigns from happening that are currently very legal and not as unethical as you imply.

[NIKV69]

Oh btw Nick your flip flopping. I said the same thing about the TSA, that no one is forcing them to stay at their jobs and you went on about how that was a thankless job, and that working with the public is hard and what not. Try to keep to one view.


Tommy there is no flip flopping. These are two statements that are totally independent of each other. As far as the TSA my point had nothing to do with that. It had to do with your comments that insuated that the TSA was trying to hurt biz travelers. The TSA has nothing to do with this discussion. It is true that none of them are forced to work there and that their job is thankless. These are both facts but should be left in that thread. Has nothing to do with this.


There is a difference here that I really think the two of you need to do some research before making statements like "there is no gun pointed at your head to work here" and "if a company has a way to make more money, then that's the point. " In towns all over the Midwest where people have lived, raised a family, and worked all their life and all of a sudden bye bye Ford plant and now Walmart comes in and that's the only place hiring, where else do you go Nick? Please don't post that "oh you just move” That’s BS and something easier said then done. When there's only one company that's hiring you might as well have a gun pointed to your head if the you need to pay your mortgage.

Tommy, these things happen. How about when IBM outsourced? Or the steel plants closed? Big companies go through growth and then go through cuts it's the way it is. So your saying that since Wal Mart is the biggest employer for a said geographical area that they have to hire all full timers? Do things a certain way? No they don't. They are not a bad company at all. As for your "just move" comment you may not want to accept this but sometimes you have to move to areas that have more potential for good jobs. You wouldn't understand this because we live in an area that for the most part if you are able bodied you can get a decent job to live on in a number of fields and companies. Yet someone in a town in the sticks has little or no oppurtunities. Why do people from the midwest move to LA or NY? It happens all the time.


I don't shop at Walmart because of how they treat their people. Am I, one little person going to make a difference, no but it’s my principles and I stand by them. Will Walmart fail, no absolutely not. Sadly with all crap Walmart is dragging behind them, i.e. child labor in the Far East, lawsuits here for breaking workers rights they will continue to succeed. The mind of most American's towards Walmart goes something like this "oh that really is too bad.....WOW THAT'S A GREAT PRICE."


Tommy take off your "Walmart is evil" cape already. Do you have any idea how many companies use child labor from the far easy? Nike, Kathy Gifford and many others use it. It's no secret, to try to single out Walmart for using them is foolish. Walmart is not only about price but selection too. WalMart and Target are great stores and are for good reasons.

[T-Bird76]

You grouped outsourcing to cheap foreign labor with switching account figures? One is illegal, and one is very common practice. One is flat out wrong, and the other we just wish that they wouldn't do it.

No one wants our companies to go overseas, but it's allowed. And you're right, until regulation is made that forces them to dootherwise, it can be labelled only as something that sucks for middle class workers.

I know we live in a regulated system. And because of that, we need to create regulation that prevents companies from paying immigrants less, forcing them to choosed more skilled workers.

We're on the same page, but the fix isn't getting mad at Walmart. The fix is taking advantage of the fact that we need to create regulation to prevent thigns from happening that are currently very legal and not as unethical as you imply.

Acutely Phil to use Enron and WorldCom as examples some of the things they did were perfectly legal. What Enron did was to state sales for lets say the third quarter they felt were almost certainly going to be booked but weren't going to come in until the fourth quarter. What happened was some of those sales they put on the books never came through. So these companies were misstating facts and not going back and restating figures. It wasn't illegal then to state income you thought you were going to receive in one quarter for another quarter; the problem was it got out of control and collapsed on them. New rules and regulations now make that illegal.

This goes to your example that whatever companies need to do to make money they should. Should Walmart be allowed to do the same? Even if "TODAY" it’s legal. Not just to use Walmart as an example but your the big kid on the block your a target. In certain communities the gov't should force Walmart to provide "reasonable" benefits and wages to their people. Ok you can say Walmart will close up and move but I tend to disagree with that.

Any company that is making money and will still make money will remain. The long term affects also will be positive for them. If your paying more and giving your people a stake in the company loyalty will develop, turn over will go down, the community will embrace them, and sales will go up. If a company is to do business in a community they need to be a part of it. Employee locals, pay them a fair wage, and give back to the community.

[PhilDernerJr]

Acutely Phil to use Enron and WorldCom as examples some of the things they did were perfectly legal. What Enron did was to state sales for lets say the third quarter they felt were almost certainly going to be booked but weren't going to come in until the fourth quarter. What happened was some of those sales they put on the books never came through. So these companies were misstating facts and not going back and restating figures. It wasn't illegal then to state income you thought you were going to receive in one quarter for another quarter; the problem was it got out of control and collapsed on them. New rules and regulations now make that illegal.

But that's just it. Laws were modified and REGULATIONS were created to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. The men who did that are in jail now. Though what they did was unethical but 'legal' in that way, htye paid the price. I'd say the American people one in the end, no?


This goes to your example that whatever companies need to do to make money they should.

Not what I meant. Of course I meant that they should exercise what they can do, within the law and fair ethical standards. Don't liek what they are doing? Then a new regulation needs to be made to change that. That's all.


Should Walmart be allowed to do the same? Even if "TODAY" it’s legal.

There's no comparing Walmart's giving jobs to immigrants or changing workers to part-time, to the action of Enron or Worldcom. Walmart's actions are widespread and practiced by many. THe thing is that if you don't like, then we just need regulation.


Any company that is making money and will still make money will remain. The long term affects also will be positive for them. If your paying more and giving your people a stake in the company loyalty will develop, turn over will go down, the community will embrace them, and sales will go up. If a company is to do business in a community they need to be a part of it. Employee locals, pay them a fair wage, and give back to the community.

While your community argument is true, the same doesn't hold true outside of middle America. Big cities like NY and others have too many options for shopping as opposed to one big Walmart supercenter. The thigns that will get people in the stores, or more importantly, keep them out, are high prices which will come from higher costs of labor.

I agree with you that changing to part-time employmees is not in the BEST interest of the average job-hunting American. I don't think it's as crushing as you imply.

I don't think that what a lot of companies are doing and have done (like in all the Flint, Michigans around the US), are so cut and dry. It's not that unethical of them to move production to overseas. All I'm saying is that we just need to make regulations to prevent them from doing it in certain ways.

[T-Bird76]

Nick I'm using Walmart as the example; I agree that other companies use child labor and other practices that are not ethical. Walmart is the most visible and easily used as the poster boy.

I think it’s very unethical of companies to move large groups of production over seas to save a buck or to. Eventually it’s going to come back around and slap you in the face. If your closing plants, call centers, and other employment centers you’re destroying your customer base. Do you think it’s unfeasible that the hundreds of thousands that have lost their jobs are willingly going to buy from those companies?

I think GM and Ford are a great example of this backlash. They moved so much production to Mexico their quality has fallen off because of cheaper production methods used across the boarder. The fact is they're not selling cars here in the U.S. Just the opposite though, Toyota, Honda, Nissan are selling cars. They use highly skilled workers in either Japan or here and people are buying their cars. How are they successful using Americans and their own countrymen to build their products and GM and Ford aren't?

[PhilDernerJr]

Ford and GM were already sucking before they moved. Cutting production costs was the only thing we could still do to compete around here, even among our own people.

Remember our need for better engineers? IF we can't make a decent product, then it doesn't warrnat paying someone $38,000 a year to make it.

[Matt Molnar]

The hiring of part-timers isn't a Wal-Mart-centric idea. Many retailers, even those with, gasp, union representation, hire as many part time employees as possible. Yes, Wal-Mart is the biggest single private employer, but still many more people work for other companies than work for them.

The thing that worries me most is that much of the consumer spending that is occuring is being financed with credit cards. I think much of the gas price increase has been absorbed not by consumers shelling out more cash, but by filling up using 20% interest cards. In the long run this can turn out to be a bigger problem for the economy...some go as far as predicting a collapse of our banking system should some of the large banks who issue all this credit falter as their cardholders default on their payments. I'm not sure that scenario would be allowed to happen, but there will definitely be some long term consequences.

As for the new Dow record, here's (http://www.smartmoney.com/aheadofthecurve/index.cfm?story=20060929) a good piece about how meaningless it is. Basically the author (a Dow Jones employee, as am I) points out that the 30 companies in the DJI are hardly representative of the equities market or the economy. The S&P 500, on the other hand, which is a much better barometer of the market, is nowhere near its all-time highs.

[T-Bird76]

Matt excellent point about credit card spending. This is going to be our Achilles heal. Our credit card spending is just beyond control. However the banks don't help. I can't tell you how many offers I receive in the mail. As a test once I applied for three credit cards and got approved for all three with very high spending limits, far higher then I could afford to pay off if I maxed them out. My question why is this allowed to take place? Again perhaps some kind of regulation needs to be put in place to control credit card advertising.