Israel launches offensive inside Lebanon

[Midnight Mike]

This could be the start of war....
:evil:
Israel launches offensive inside Lebanon
7 Israeli troops die in fighting; soldier kidnappings called an ‘act of war’
MSNBC News Services


Updated: 8:21 a.m. PT July 12, 2006
MARJAYOUN, Lebanon - The Israeli army on Wednesday said seven soldiers were killed in fighting with Hezbollah guerrillas after a cross-border raid in which the Lebanese group captured two other soldiers and dozens of Israeli troops crossed the frontier with warplanes, tanks and gunboats to hunt for the captives.

Israel’s Channel 10 reported Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz authorized a campaign of air strikes targeting Hezbollah guerrilla installations and Lebanese civilian infrastructure — a second front in the fight against Islamic militants by Israel, which already is waging an operation to free a captured soldier in the Gaza Strip.

The report described the planned blitz as part of Israel’s response to the capture of two of its soldiers and killing of several others in a Hezbollah border raid earlier in the day.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called the soldiers’ capture “an act of war.”

Striking deep
Israeli jets struck deep into southern Lebanon, blasting bridges and Hezbollah positions and killing two civilians, Lebanese security officials said.

The Israeli military planned to call up thousands of reservists, and residents of Israeli towns on the border with Lebanon were ordered to seek cover in underground bomb shelters.

Israel’s Defense Ministry said the Lebanese government was responsible for the two soldiers’ safety.

The United States, U.N., European Union, France and Germany expressed deep concern about the fighting. U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan called for the immediate release of kidnapped Israeli soldiers and condemned Israel’s retaliation in southern Lebanon.

Arab League concerns
The Arab League planned an urgent meeting on the crisis Thursday amid “fears of widening of tension and possible Israeli strike against Syria,” which backs Hezbollah, a senior league official in Cairo said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

Syrian Vice President Farouk al-Sharaa blamed Israel for the escalating violence in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories and denied his country had a role in either abduction.

“It’s up to the resistance — both the Lebanese and the Palestinian — to decide what they are doing and why are they fighting,” he told reporters in Damascus.

The top U.N. official in Lebanon, Geir Pedersen, met with Lebanon’s prime minister and denounced Hezbollah’s incursion across the border into northern Israel, known as the Blue Line.

“Hezbollah’s action escalates the already tense situation along the Blue Line and is an act of very dangerous proportions,” he said in a statement.

U.S. Assistant Secretary of State David Welch, on a visit to Cairo, Egypt, said the soldiers’ capture was “a very dangerous escalation.”

He accused Syria of interfering to prevent a solution to abduction of Israeli Cpl. Gilad Shalit, who was seized by Gaza militants.

“We are dismayed that so far there are some who are intending to interfere,” he said.


Jubilation in south Beirut
Meantime, jubilant residents of south Beirut, a stronghold of Hezbollah, and Palestinians in the Ein el-Hilwa refugee camp fired in the air and set off firecrackers for more than an hour after the capture of the Israeli soldiers was announced.

Hezbollah also called for major "celebration rallies" to be held in Lebanon on Thursday and had started to organize them, NBC News' Richard Engel reported. In the past, similar celebrations have attracted tens of thousands, or even several hundred thousand people.

Hezbollah sources also said the “Palestinians are very happy,” clearly showing Hezbollah’s solidarity with Hamas.

Hezbollah supporters were seen setting off fire crackers and distributing sweets in the streets of Beirut. Similar scenes were reported across Lebanon.

Turning back the clock
Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz warned the Lebanese government that the Israeli military will target infrastructure and “turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years,” if the soldiers are not returned, Israeli TV reported.

Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 and withdrew after high casualties on both sides.

A top Hamas leader said his movement did not coordinate with Hezbollah on the capture of the soldiers, but said it was “natural” for the two groups to work together in their demands against Israel.

“Now Israeli has to decide on its choices,” Osama Hamdan, Hamas’ spokesman in Lebanon, told The Associated Press. “It is early to talk about details of the exchange, but no doubt the operation carried out by Hezbollah today will strengthen our demands to exchange the captives.”

Fates of 9,000 prisoners at stake
Hamas-linked militants have demanded the release of at least some of the estimated 9,000 prisoners held by Israel in exchange for Shalit’s freedom. Hamdan’s comments suggested the group now may toughen its stance.

Shalit, 19, was captured June 25 by Hamas-linked militants on a cross-border raid into Israel from Gaza.

The Israeli offensive in Gaza since Shalit’s capture has killed more 60 Palestinians, most gunmen but about a dozen civilians. One Israeli soldier has died in that operation, shot by fellow troops.

[T-Bird76]

At this rate the progress that was made over the last 15 years will be totally erased. I just hope this doesn't escalate over into Syria. Get ready for oil to be $95 a barrel!

[Ari707]

it will go into Syria if they don';t for the terrorists to release the soliders, knocking of syria will be the best that can happen for both Syria and Lebanon

With Israel calling up the reserves means that they are in it for the long haul and this isn't a quick raid

[Hyder]

Israeli government has lost their mind.

[Midnight Mike]

Israeli government has lost their mind.

Really? So, it is ok for these countries to kidnap their Soldiers & continue to fire rockets into Israel?

[Hyder]

You act as if Israel hasn't been doing the same thing. except in Israel's case it's most likely seen as a prisoner of war, while in every other sense it's a terrorist organization kidnapping.

[T-Bird76]

You act as if Israel hasn't been doing the same thing. except in Israel's case it's most likely seen as a prisoner of war, while in every other sense it's a terrorist organization kidnapping.

Well explain to us what category these folks who fight for no country fall into? Israel has every right to do what its doing. I don't take a war hawk stand all to often but in this case I hope Israel wipes these people off the face of the earth. Terrorists and the countries who support them have no place in civil society. Countries like Syria and Iran have made it clear they want no part of modern society and need to be dealt with accordingly. Israel has taken the gloves off and they'll be successful. I'm not Jewish but I fully support the Israeli stance on never allowing antisemits to attempt to destroy their people.

[Hyder]

Wow i didnt know fox news posted on this board, but seriously all these people fall into the context of human beings.

Israel in my eyes will always be an illegal occupation of land that was never theirs and I like a lot of logical minded people in this world do not recognize it as a legal entity. That so called country alone has gone against so many UN treaties (i forgot the technical term, it could be sanctions) than Iraq ever did yet they are left alone because of their affilation with the US. Israel is just as bad if not worse than Hamas. Both sides are lunatics, because like america they dont believe in peaceful negotations and only war.

Irans leader maybe quite off key, but besides being heavily misrepresented in the press from his quotations, he did extend a call to our own president to sit down and talk about how we can move foward. But of course Bush, like israel, act like 5 year olds and refuse to even talk about a comprimise. They just say they're all terrorists and we don't negotiate with them. What good does that lead to exactely?

That's like a friend or acquaintance you constantly have to deal with say to you "Hey i know we have our differences, lets talk so we can work things out" and the other person says "**** you, im not even talking to you i think you're a *********". What possible progression can you make for peace when BOTH sides aren't talking and only fight? You can't make any.

It may seem like i'm taking the palestine side on this WHOLE thing, but i think both sides are equally as stupid the way they conduct themselves, and i think our president is a bona fide retard over his mentality to middle eastern countries.

[T-Bird76]

Israel in my eyes will always be an illegal occupation of land that was never theirs

Hyder here's a newsflash it’s not the Palestinians land either. You want to get real technical the only people in "Palestine" before the Jews were the Bedouin. All Palestinians are descended from other Arab nations who generally came to the land to seek a better life. So the claim it’s the land of the Palestinians is BS. The word Palestine came from the Romans who after destroying and kicking out the Jews remaned the land.


Iran’s leader maybe quite off key, but besides being heavily misrepresented in the press from his quotations

I'm not sure how you can miss quote someone who says the Holocaust never took place?? My god anyone with even a grade school education who says the Holocaust never took place has some serious issues and this guy is running a country seeking nuclear weapons.

Two years ago I taught a class on the Holocaust at a local college I'm very well versed in the horrors that were committed to the Jews. What most of us see or have learned without deeper study on the holocaust is just the tip of the iceberg. Here's a chilling thought, the only Synagogue left standing in Nazi controlled Europe was in Prague. Hitler left it standing because after the war he wanted a museum of extinct people. Don't for one second tell me the President of Iran has been grossly misquoted! He would like nothing more then to see every Jewish person on this planet extinct. Say the people of Iran may have been misquoted since I'm sure they are required at gun point to attend these rallies but DO NOT say the President of Iran has been misquoted.

I fully support any actions Israel takes to defend the Jewish people including complete destruction of their neighbors if it came to that unfortunate conclusion..


because like america they dont believe in peaceful negotations and only war.

Whether or not you support the war in Iraq which I don't by the way do not say this country does not believe in peaceful means to resolve conflicts. When you speak of America I'm sure you are speaking of our leadership, or at least I should hope so. The people of this country are perhaps the most peaceful giving people that have ever graced this Earth. I'd wager a years salary any average American would rather see peaceful talks rather then war. What we did in Iraq was wrong and goes against our founding father George Washington's doctrine of never invading a nation without due cause.

As far as terrorists falling into the context of human beings, I'm sorry but they do not.

[Hyder]

I'm not sure how you can miss quote someone who says the Holocaust never took place?? My god anyone with even a grade school education who says the Holocaust never took place has some serious issues and this guy is running a country seeking nuclear weapons.

My granduncle is fluent in arabic and persian, he tells me that the leader of Iran is being misquoted especially on the topic of which you just said. Iran's leader never said that "the holocaust never happened", what he actually said that the number of jews killed were exaggerated. He never ever said that it never took place. Dude if you want certain areas to come to the 21st century, nuclear power is the only way. You're deny them that right for research and technology, it's the idiotic suspicions of our government who are keeping so many middle eastern countries behind the times because they suspect every single arab of being a terrorist. They have the full right to do nuclear research and supply their country with nuclear power. If you feel that they're doing this to attack us, just remember which was the only country in history to actually use nuclear force, and now see how ironic it is that they're the ones saying that other people can't have it. What the american government is doing is just straight foward not allowing anyone else to have power and a say in this world...to go back to my first statement...they're being bullies.

Our media has misquoted the leader of Iran, because they're doing their absolute best to justify making him a madman who wants to kill us. It was easy with saddam, because he practically was what he was. But this guy is nowhere in the ballpark with what saddam was. He's just a guy trying to bring his people to the 21st century. I just think that he has been misrepreseted in a very wrong way just because our media and government would want us to see him that way. A comedian once made an excellent point and said

The way fox news shows us a terrorist saying "death to the jews & infidels" is the same way al jazeera will show a kkk member saying "death to all muslims, blacks etc.". Of course these people don't stand for their people, but our media has a clever way of making us think that they do.


When you speak of America I'm sure you are speaking of our leadership, or at least I should hope so.
To be very blunt, you're a fool if you thought i spoke of the people. I don't need a lecture on what the people of this country believe, but i am quite happy you can recognize the faults in our government.


As far as terrorists falling into the context of human beings, I'm sorry but they do not.
But this i have to address because if you thought that's who i was referring to, i think you have problems. But that also has to put in question what you define as terrorists. When i say "all these people", i do mean all Israeli's and Arab's who just want peace. That's why i consistently made the distinction by saying "israeli gov't" as opposed to just israeli's.


including complete destruction of their neighbors if it came to that unfortunate conclusion..
This right here scares the **** out of me, something like this i would expect to hear from a radical. But no logical minded person in this world could ever say something like this. and don't even try to say that "it's a last option"...No. Remarks like that are what causes so much suffering in the world, i'd expect those type of words to be uttered by like an Osama. Not an american. It's the same thing what i said before, you're letting the wrong people represent an entire civilization. To call for the mass destruction of people makes you no different than the fools themselves.

The reason why both of these governments are failing their people are because nobody is talking with eachother anymore because either one country views the other as terrorists, or the other country views them as having no right to even be there. These are child'ish attitudes to resolving this extremely huge issue. your comment on wiping out a mass group of individuals...what the **** is the matter with you? you know more innocent lives are lost than the ones who are responsible, so how can the complete destruction of a people ever resolve anything? i'd really hate to be one of your students.

As for who "owns" that land, i'll come back with an answer for this, very soon. Not because i don't know, i just want my facts straight.

[T-Bird76]

My granduncle is fluent in arabic and persian, he tells me that the leader of Iran is being misquoted especially on the topic of which you just said. Iran's leader never said that "the holocaust never happened", what he actually said that the number of jews killed were exaggerated

I fail to see the difference in the meaning? Whether it was one million, two million, or six million, one is too much. For any leader to even attempt to downplay the holocaust is sickening. The President of Iran has called for the complete destruction of Israel, this is not the word of a madman? Please tell me why we should trust Iran? Their track record has been less then stellar. Are you prepared to risk allowing them to have unrestricted nuclear technology? We trusted Hitler in 1936 and look what happened. I don't think the world needs to take that risk again.


But this i have to address because if you thought that's who i was referring to, i think you have problems. But that also has to put in question what you define as terrorists. When i say "all these people", i do mean all Israeli's and Arab's who just want peace. That's why i consistently made the distinction by saying "israeli gov't" as opposed to just israeli's.

Who I define as a terrorist in the Mideast is simple, the Muslim extremists who fight for no country and represent no collective group of people. I do not consider the uniformed soldiers in the Israeli armed forces to be terrorists. They are defending a sovereign nation and the free citizens of that nation.

You call me an extremist?? I hardly think so...the simple fact of the matter is when it’s the end of the day the people of Israel have a choice to make, their way of life or the end of their culture and their people. The destruction of the Jewish people has been attempted far to many times throughout history. To think it will not be attempted again if the opportunity presented itself is foolish. Israel will do what it takes to keep its people on this earth and I support their cause.

[Midnight Mike]

My granduncle is fluent in arabic and persian, he tells me that the leader of Iran is being misquoted especially on the topic of which you just said. Iran's leader never said that "the holocaust never happened", what he actually said that the number of jews killed were exaggerated. He never ever said that it never took place. Dude if you want certain areas to come to the 21st century, nuclear power is the only way. .

You have plenty of nations, not just the United States, that simply, does not trust Iran with a Nuclear Program. It was the EU that had been negotiation with Iran for years, for Iran to give up its Nuclear Program, same Nuclear program that they had started in secrecy.

The President of Iran said the Holocaust did not exist, same president that called for Israel to be wiped off the planet, same president that refuses to that Israel is even on a map.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/interna ... 60,00.html (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html)


Ahmadinejad: We don't want to confirm or deny the Holocaust. We oppose every type of crime against any people. But we want to know whether this crime actually took place or not.


SPIEGEL: Are you still saying that the Holocaust is just "a myth?"

Ahmadinejad: I will only accept something as truth if I am actually convinced of it.


Ahmadinejad: Precisely that is our point. Why should you feel obliged to the Zionists? If there really had been a Holocaust, Israel ought to be located in Europe, not in Palestine.

[Midnight Mike]

Israel in my eyes will always be an illegal occupation of land that was never theirs and I like a lot of logical minded people in this world do not recognize it as a legal entity. That so called country alone has gone against so many UN treaties (i forgot the technical term, it could be sanctions) than Iraq ever did yet they are left alone because of their affilation with the US. Israel is just as bad if not worse than Hamas. Both sides are lunatics, because like america they dont believe in peaceful negotations and only war.


Land was given to Israel in 1948 by the United Nations, and what do their Arab neighbors do, they lauch an invasion. Again in the 1950's, & again in the 1960's.

Yes, Israel is not exactly an innocent in this, but, they certainly inflame the issue and are constantly instigating the conflict.

[Tom_Turner]

Israel is being attacked from Gaza and Southern Lebanon...areas they've pulled out of.... by Hamas and Hezbollah... sponsored by Syria and Iran.

Israel has the right to self defense... and a right to survival.

There is no sustainable negoitiatable settlement unless Syria and Iran want there to be one. I doubt they'll feel the need until the WAR comes to them..which it will in the next couple of years - maybe sooner, because Israel recognizes this, as well as what is likely to happen if a nuclear device winds up in the hands of genocidal Islamic organizations.

[Hyder]

Israel is being attacked from Gaza and Southern Lebanon...areas they've pulled out of.... by Hamas and Hezbollah... sponsored by Syria and Iran.

It also makes total sense that Israel has taken this giant offensive for two captured soldiers who aren't being hurt at all. It's also funny while Israel has been pulling out of certain settlements, it's perfectly fine that they bulldoze other palestinian settlements with people living in them. They're hipocrites.



Israel has the right to self defense... and a right to survival.
Palestine is doing the exact same thing, they're backs have been against the wall since day one. I don't agree with people blowing themselves up, i think it's cowardly and has no connection with Islamic law, but these people have become so desperate for maintaining their homes and lives. They lost so much in these 50+ years because Israel just takes more and more of what's not their own.


Land was given to Israel in 1948 by the United Nations, and what do their Arab neighbors do, they lauch an invasion. Again in the 1950's, & again in the 1960's
I'm glad they did. Because none of the arab nations even agreed to the partition, just because the UN delegates a law, it doesn't exactely constitute it as making sense especially when a comprimise was never landed with neighboring countries to begin with. How could the UN think this plan would work when majority if all other arab nations didn't agree to this.




You have plenty of nations, not just the United States, that simply, does not trust Iran with a Nuclear Program. It was the EU that had been negotiation with Iran for years, for Iran to give up its Nuclear Program, same Nuclear program that they had started in secrecy.

The President of Iran said the Holocaust did not exist, same president that called for Israel to be wiped off the planet, same president that refuses to that Israel is even on a map.

Wasn't russia in talks with Iran not too long ago about this matter? And i've said it before and i'll say it again. The man was misquoted beyond death. and yes the holocaust was a great tragedy, many people died... how many times will the jews wave that flag for sympathy. From what i know the holocaust didn't become "the holocaust" until maybe 20-30 years after the war. Since then "jewish" historians have been doubling and triple'ing the number of jewish people killed. When majority of the jews realized hitlers ideals, majority of them fled from germany. Otherwise there is no possible way we could have the number of jews we have today...especially if the number the "jewish" historians claim were killed in the holocaust. It's a point the leader of a Iran has the full right to say.


The President of Iran has called for the complete destruction of Israel, this is not the word of a madman?


I fully support any actions Israel takes to defend the Jewish people including complete destruction of their neighbors if it came to that unfortunate conclusion
Are these not words of Mad men? hahaha

How does a soldier, 1 SOLDIER, being taken captive give Israel the right to invade a foreign territory, and bomb and kill innocent civilians?
This country (USA) condemns other places as terrorist states and yet support Israel who are obliterating the lives of so many innocent people over 3 captured soldiers. There is nothing to justify that. Israel is nothing but a terrorist state of its own.

a person i know made a very good point
"As long as there is an Israel, there will never be peace in the Middle East. I mean, they only STOLE the land because they think they have some God given right to it. If they had a right to it, they probably wouldn't have lost it in the 1st place....."

It's also interesting to note that in the Quran and Bible, the jews are the ones who are depicted as ones who constantly turned their back on God and killed his messengers (Prophets) and yet somehow they believe they are entitled to this land. Go figure.

[Mellyrose]

how many times will the jews wave that flag for sympathy.

I find that statement extremely offensive. The killing of the Jews was the among the largest acts of genocide toward one group of people in history (I'm not 100% on whether it was absolutely THE largest, but I am pretty sure it was). Poland alone lost 90% of it's Jewish population...3 million. The Jews do not wave a flag for sympathy...it's history. It's not going to go away. Every day, all different minorities dwell on things that happened to their people in the past, it doesn't mean they are crying for sympathy....and it affects our social dynamic no matter what views you have.



From what i know the holocaust didn't become "the holocaust" until maybe 20-30 years after the war. Since then "jewish" historians have been doubling and triple'ing the number of jewish people killed. When majority of the jews realized hitlers ideals, majority of them fled from germany. Otherwise there is no possible way we could have the number of jews we have today...especially if the number the "jewish" historians claim were killed in the holocaust.

I just have a couple questions. First of all, why are you referring to Jewish Historians in quotations?

Also, do you yourself really believe that the Holocaust was exaggerated? Estimated figures from the Nazi regime records indicate numbers from 5 to 7 million. Millions of innocent people were murdered. Women, children, the mentally and physically disabled....completely helpless.

I think that any kind of questioning whether this was as terrible as it is portrayed is just awful. It is something that should be left alone.


Nevermind the fact that what is going on in Lebanon has nothing to do with what historians say about the Holocaust.

[Novanglus]

A couple of thoughts in my head:

I don’t know how Israel “stole” anything, if it’s what the UN gave them.

Israel not existing would not bring peace, because the Muslim extremists are against Western Civilization. They don’t like the fact that we sell water, fruit and natural things from the Earth for money. They hate the Western way, Israel or not.

To counter your friend’s quote, I’d like to share a quote from a great Dennis Miller rant:

“… Five hundred million Arabs; five Million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a Pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, Everyone will be pals.”

Read the rest of his rant here: http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/betar1068477052.php

I think Dennis is right when he says that the Palestinians have had their chances for peace and to come to a deal, and would rather occupy their lives with the hobby of having someone to hate.


the jews are the ones who are depicted as ones who constantly turned their back on God and killed his messengers (Prophets)

I must have the Fox News version of The Bible, because I don’t exactly recall that.


… none of the arab nations even agreed to the partition

That’s why you join the United Nations and VOTE on their resolutions. That’s what voting and the democratic process is about….sometimes you lose….and you deal with it.

At this point in the game, each side is wrong in my eyes.

[PhilDernerJr]

This debate is going well, I think. I just want to remind people to refrain from name-calling and going on the personal attack. Attack the post, not the poster.

Thanks guys, and keep sharing!!

[Midnight Mike]

Quote:
Land was given to Israel in 1948 by the United Nations, and what do their Arab neighbors do, they lauch an invasion. Again in the 1950's, & again in the 1960's


I'm glad they did. Because none of the arab nations even agreed to the partition, just because the UN delegates a law, it doesn't exactely constitute it as making sense especially when a comprimise was never landed with neighboring countries to begin with. How could the UN think this plan would work when majority if all other arab nations didn't agree to this.

You are honesty, & your feelings echo the sentiment that exist in the Middle East, they simply do not want Israel there. So with that, they think it is ok to launch attacks against Israel.

They teach children that it is god's work to kill Jews, any kind of attack against Israel is ok. With this, now matter what Israel, there will never be peace in the Middle East.

[Midnight Mike]

The man was misquoted beyond death. and yes the holocaust was a great tragedy, many people died... how many times will the jews wave that flag for sympathy. From what i know the holocaust didn't become "the holocaust" until maybe 20-30 years after the war. Since then "jewish" historians have been doubling and triple'ing the number of jewish people killed. When majority of the jews realized hitlers ideals, majority of them fled from germany. Otherwise there is no possible way we could have the number of jews we have today...especially if the number the "jewish" historians claim were killed in the holocaust. It's a point the leader of a Iran has the full right to say.



Yes, the death count during the Holocaust changed numerous times, there were no official records, there were times that they would find a burial spot & that up the number of how many people died...... Remember, they had mass burials...

Look what happened during 9/11, & how many times the death count changed.....

[T-Bird76]

It also makes total sense that Israel has taken this giant offensive for two captured soldiers who aren't being hurt at all. It's also funny while Israel has been pulling out of certain settlements, it's perfectly fine that they bulldoze other palestinian settlements with people living in them. They're hipocrites.

Hyder you don't understand the mind set going on. One Jew is too many for Israel and that one person represents the entire Jewish population of Israel. It is an attack on their way of life. You may find that hard to understand but thats how the Jews think. That way of thought is a result of thousands of years of prejudice.


I'm glad they did. Because none of the arab nations even agreed to the partition, just because the UN delegates a law, it doesn't exactely constitute it as making sense especially when a comprimise was never landed with neighboring countries to begin with. How could the UN think this plan would work when majority if all other arab nations didn't agree to this.

The Arab nations weren't nations to agree or disagree, they were colonies of England and France. They showed their disagreement when they gained their independence from Europe and proceeded to invade Israel. So if you want to blame someone for firing the first bullet blame the Arab nations.


how many times will the jews wave that flag for sympathy. From what i know the holocaust didn't become "the holocaust" until maybe 20-30 years after the war. Since then "jewish" historians have been doubling and triple'ing the number of jewish people killed. When majority of the jews realized hitlers ideals, majority of them fled from germany. Otherwise there is no possible way we could have the number of jews we have today...especially if the number the "jewish" historians claim were killed in the holocaust. It's a point the leader of a Iran has the full right to say.

Your right about the large amount of Jews who left Germany but take a guess where they went? Poland, France, Belgium, Denmark, and Eastern Russia, sounds to me the very same land that was taken over by Nazi Germany. Guess what they didn't come to England and the U.S, why you ask? England and the U.S didn't want them! Its amazing how similar our mindset and Nazi Germany's mindset was about the Jews back then, very similar. As long as Holocust surviors still roams this earth any god loving person should feel sympathy for them. Will you say the same thing about 9/11 ten, twenty, thirty years from now?

Why do we know almost an exact amount of Jews killed by Nazi Germany in the gas chambers?? Because the Germans were masters at keeping highly detailed records of who was killed. The concentration camps were highly efficient factories of death. The planned destruction of the Jews wasn't a bunch of Nazi's running around killing Jews here and there. It became a part of the industry of Nazi Germany. Take a trip to Berlin and visit the National Archives of Germany. You can get a first hand look in the original record books of the almost six million Jews killed.

I have one last question for you. Where do you place your allegiance, the U.S or the Middle East?

[Hyder]

Where do you place your allegiance, the U.S or the Middle East?

That's my favorite question in the world. I am an American first and foremost, but i do have the right to disagree with our foreign policy towards other countries. And because i do disagree with our foreign policy doesn't shift my allegiance to being an American. And because i may see a situation from another point of view, doesn't make me less American than anyone else.

It's like when people ask "you support our troops or not?". Of course i support my troops, but that doesn't mean i'm not allowed to think that the war they're fighting in is garbage.

[PhilDernerJr]

Well said, Hyder.

[Midnight Mike]

This debate is going well, I think. I just want to remind people to refrain from name-calling and going on the personal attack. Attack the post, not the poster.

Thanks guys, and keep sharing!!

Up yours Phil :lol: :shock: :D :P

[K9DEP]

Where do you place your allegiance, the U.S or the Middle East?

Does it realy matter what would you do if he said Middle East? Your ignorance makes it sound like your going to tell "Big Dubya" that Hyder is putting up a good argument and he needs tio be stopped. I don't think your looking at the whole picture. Two Israeli Soldiers were kidnapped, so now Israel has the right to destroy a settlement filled with innocent women an children (and probably some nuetral men). And in all of this a T.V. station that has been bombed and runways at an International airport (which had to be damaged) had to be brought into the situation.

[T-Bird76]

Where do you place your allegiance, the U.S or the Middle East?

Does it realy matter what would you do if he said Middle East? Your ignorance makes it sound like your going to tell "Big Dubya" that Hyder is putting up a good argument and he needs tio be stopped. I don't think your looking at the whole picture. Two Israeli Soldiers were kidnapped, so now Israel has the right to destroy a settlement filled with innocent women an children (and probably some nuetral men). And in all of this a T.V. station that has been bombed and runways at an International airport (which had to be damaged) had to be brought into the situation.

First off watch who you are calling ignorant, you don't know me from a hole in the wall. It was a perfectly legitimate question, which Hyder answered, and I believe him. You lack the understanding of the Israeli and Jewish culture to make such statements. Read what I posted about the Jewish people and do some research and you will know what the big picture looks like to the Israelis. Whether or not you agree with it or not that is their mindset. That mindset will never change after many other cultures have tried to erase the Jews from the face of the earth.

[Midnight Mike]

G-8 leaders demand halt to Mideast attacks

World leaders, managing to resolve sharp differences over an escalating crisis between Israel and Lebanon, declared Sunday that extremist groups in the region cannot be allowed to plunge the Middle East into chaos and must immediately halt their attacks.

The leaders of the world's eight industrial powers issued a strong statement condemning Hezbollah militants but also urged Israel to exercise restraint in its military actions against Lebanon.

The statement said it was critical for Israel to "be mindful of the strategic and humanitarian consequences of its actions." It called on Israel "to exercise utmost restraint" by seeking to avoid casualties among innocent civilians and damage to civilian infrastructure.

"It is a strong message with a clear political content," German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters.

The statement called for two captured Israeli soldiers to be freed, for the attacks on Israel by Hezbollah militants to stop and for Israel to end its military action. It also expressed support for the Lebanese government.

The crisis has dominated talks among President Bush and the other leaders attending the annual G-8 summit of major industrial countries. The Group of Eight is made up of the United States, Russia, Japan, Germany, Britain, France, Italy, and Canada.

Israeli warplanes began striking Lebanon after Hezbollah guerrillas crossed the border on Wednesday and captured two Israeli soldiers. The guerrillas struck back at Israeli cities, and on Sunday fired a relentless barrage of rockets into the Israeli city of Haifa, dramatically escalating the conflict.

Bush and European leaders disagreed on who should be blamed for the violence, and those differences had to be overcome for the G-8 nations to issue a joint declaration.

While other G-8 leaders questioned whether Israel's response to the capture of its soldiers went too far, Bush has placed blame squarely on Hezbollah and its state sponsors — Iran and Syria — and has declined to press Israel for a cease-fire.

Bush described the escalation of violence as "a moment of clarification" that should show the world how Hezbollah is disrupting the peace process.

In their statement, the leaders expressed "deepening concern about the situation in the Middle East, in particular the rising civilian casualties on all sides and the damage to infrastructure." At least 130 people, mostly civilians, have been killed in Lebanon, while about a dozen Israeli civilians have lost their lives.

Merkel, speaking to reporters, said: "We do not want to let terrorist forces and those who support them have the opportunity to create chaos in the Middle East. Therefore we place value on clearly identifying the cause and effect of events."

She said the leaders believe that "first of all, that the Israeli soldiers must be returned unharmed, that the attacks on Israel must stop and that then, of course, also the Israeli military action must be ended."

Merkel also said they are "convinced that the government of Lebanon must be given all support and that the relevant U.N. resolutions regarding the south of Lebanon must also be implemented, and we also demand that in addition to the U.N. activities, another observation and security mission is established. That must be worked out through the U.N."

The U.N. Security Council adopted Resolution 1559 in September 2004, calling for the disarmament of all militias and strict respect for Lebanon's sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity and political independence. Hezbollah, which operates in southern Lebanon, has refused to disarm, saying it is a resistance movement.

Russian President Vladimir Putin appeared to be more in line with European leaders who have condemned Israel's attacks as excessive. Putin has said it was unacceptable for Hezbollah to take hostages and shell others' territory, but also for Israel to use massive force in response.

"It is our impression that aside from seeking to return the abducted soldiers, Israel is pursuing wider goals," Putin said. He did not elaborate.

Putin had molded this year's G-8 summit — the first hosted by his country — to showcase Russia's re-emergence on the world stage after a devastating economic collapse in 1998.

However, he failed to win a much-anticipated agreement with the U.S. on Russia's admission to the World Trade Organization, the 149-nation group that sets the rules for world trade. The United States is the only country that has not signed off on Russia's membership in the WTO, and Bush dashed Putin's hopes for getting in now.

[Tom_Turner]

And in all of this a T.V. station that has been bombed and runways at an International airport (which had to be damaged) had to be brought into the situation.

Yeah, too bad about the infrastructure huh? Should've just allowed rockets to continue to fly across the border aimed at Israeli civilians for the next ten years and not do anything about it.