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View Full Version : Port Authority: Fourth Big Airport May Be Needed In Metro NY



Futterman
06-20-2005, 10:43 PM
http://www.wnbc.com/news/4632214/detail.html

The news report on TV said that McGuire and Stewart AFBs are viable alternatives...

It's an interesting concept, but I find it amazing how our current airport situation purportedly can't handle these hundred million people. There are obviously snags in efficiency at JFK, LGA, and EWR (don't ask me what), so before anybody jumps the gun and dredges up a Kansai, perhaps some funds can be allocated towards the modernization and streamlining of what we already have.

Brian

USAF Pilot 07
06-21-2005, 12:56 PM
I don't see how McGuire would be a viable alternative.

I would think the problem lies mainly with LGA and somewhat with JFK, rather than EWR. McGuire would just attract people away from EWR and PHL and not really help the situation at LGA and JFK.

Stewart AFB, again I would think, is too far north to attract flyers from the Tri-State area on a large enough scale to make it a major airport, and alleviate some of the problems at JFK and LGA. Plus, many passengers from the side West of the Hudson use EWR so they don't have to come into NYC.

There's really no room in NYC for an additional airport, except for land around existing airports (such as Floyd Bennett Field). I would think an additional airport at Floyd Bennett Field would be useless and dangerous as it would interfere with JFK ops.

THe only other alternative is somewhere on Western L.I. or in NJ. The problem with Western L.I. is attracting NYC (other than Queens and Brooklyn) fliers. You'd have to be very convincing to get people from Manhattan, Bx, SI and Western Qns and BK to travel to Long Island to fly, when LGA and JFK are much closer.

Me thinks that ISP needs to be focused on more, and given much more attention than it currently is getting.

ISP needs to become more like ONT or LGB, that are close to LAX, but attract people mainly from the outskirts of LA.

Worse come to worst, you could turn TEB into a commercial airport, offer a one seat rail ride from Manhattan to TEB, and then rezone some land in NJ and make it a "super" business airport.

Just some ideas.

Tower Air
06-21-2005, 01:34 PM
that'll be the day

PhilDernerJr
06-21-2005, 02:41 PM
People act as though the 3 NYC airports are running at capacity, when they aren't.

JFK is dead to me it seems. A lot of this is because of the economy and NYC not being as high in ranking among business cities in the world like it was. If/as those economic conditions change, you might see an upswing, but I just don't know.

As for LGA, when an airport that size has 50% of its traffic being RJs....it doesn't matter how many flights out of it you have a day....that's not running at capacity. You have a slot for a 50 seat RJs that could be used to a 300 passenger 767-400. Same with wasted gate space. A CRJ at the Air Canada gate where there could be a 767-300.

And that's what I think we need in NYC. I think LGA is the only airport that would grow if given the chance. Once you remove the RJ flights, you open up more chances for medium range flights.

So if we could get an airport like TEB that is close just to handle the regional flights, that would help a lot. Leave TEB with corporate flights, though. I don't think the two can be mixed, as then it would really be packed.

PhilDernerJr
06-21-2005, 02:42 PM
Oh, and it would be nice if they made the Airtrain a little more useful at JFK. Transferring. Stupid.

GrummanFan
06-21-2005, 04:05 PM
I remember seeing this show on PBS where they discussed a new flight system being developed by NASA or some other group. It involved slowly getting rid of the bigger jets and the hub-and-spoke system of today and replacing it with many, many smaller, local airports. Airlines at these airports would fly smaller jets that would accomodate no more than 50 ppl per flight. The result would be more flights, more ppl moved per a period of time, less of a wait, and possibly a better flying experience. Air traffic would get much denser, but that wouldn't be too much of a problem if better GPS and navigational systems were devleoped. Obviously this kind of thing would be wayyy in the future, and certain bugs can be worked out of todays airports to make them work more efficently now, but do you think that this could be a possible solution to overcrowding in the future?

Futterman
06-21-2005, 04:14 PM
...a new flight system being developed by NASA or some other group. It involved slowly getting rid of the bigger jets and the hub-and-spoke system of today and replacing it with many, many smaller, local airports. Airlines at these airports would fly smaller jets that would accomodate no more than 50 ppl per flight...

Phil already mentioned how this is being applied at LGA. Neither futuristic nor a cureall.

I've seen shows that discussed theories similar to the one you mentioned, only they emphasize GENERAL aviation instead of huge airlines and aircraft. Many small airports and pilotless aircraft flying established highways in the sky, ferrying people who don't know how to fly from point A to point B. A network of AirTaxis, I believe they called it.

Brian

IslipWN
06-21-2005, 05:48 PM
Can someone say ISP????


I vote ISP as a new candidate for this fourth airport! Whos with me?

moose135
06-21-2005, 06:33 PM
The only other alternative is somewhere on Western L.I. or in NJ. The problem with Western L.I. is attracting NYC (other than Queens and Brooklyn) fliers. You'd have to be very convincing to get people from Manhattan, Bx, SI and Western Qns and BK to travel to Long Island to fly, when LGA and JFK are much closer.

I don't think a western LI location works. Just thinking theoretically, it would have to offer a wide mix of flight times and destinations to get people away from the city - as you say, with JFK & LGA in Qns, they are the logical departure point for most city residents. You may get Nassau & Western Suffolk residents there, but Eastern Suffolk is going to use ISP. I flew out of ISP for the first time a couple of weeks ago (I'm in Syosset, eastern Nassau), and was amazed at how easy is was.

Now as to the real world - a new airport in Western LI just ain't gonna happen - there is absolutely no place to put it, and even if you find a spot, the local NIMBYs won't let you get near the design stage, let alone groundbreaking. They are talking about upgrading/widening the taxiways at FRG, and the locals are just about ready to chain themselves across the runway because the think it's a plot to lengthen the runways and allow more and bigger jets in.

I think on LI, the only way to go is to further develop ISP.

Futterman
06-21-2005, 06:54 PM
In my original post, I alluded to an island-airport, which is always a possibility.

Granted, even aquatic space is limited with few bodies of water both unprotected and big enough for serious development. JFK's enough for Jamaica Bay, and LGA tops off Flushing Bay. The LI Sound is too far away, and most other places just don't work.

Perhaps the most viable would be just off of the Rockaways, in the Atlantic Ocean. You'd have a bit of an Orion's Belt constellation of airports, with LGA on the top of Queens, JFK at the bottom, and XYZ two miles past the end of Cross Bay Blvd.

Dredging this amount of land for an airport is nothing new, especially on a local scale--80 years ago, almost all of the land JFK and LGA are currently on was either water or just really really wet. Japan's been having some fun with island-airports, too. The only thing I'm not sure of is how deep the ocean is offshore, and if it's even possible. But still.

I can't see a 15 minute drive from JFK being such a hinderance to people that already find JFK and LGA convenient, and once you go out into the Atlantic, there aren't really any hard constraints on size. There shouldn't be many NIMBYs, and airspace should not pose much of a threat to Kennedy's (if they can't even be integrated with eachother).

Haha...NIMBYs in the middle of the Atlantic...

Brian

Matt Molnar
06-21-2005, 06:57 PM
Reclaim Roosevelt Field!

http://www.opencockpit.net/aline/Roosevelt_Field.jpg

jetBlueAtJFK
06-21-2005, 10:42 PM
Reclaim Roosevelt Field!

http://www.opencockpit.net/aline/Roosevelt_Field.jpg

LOL, isn't that where Roosevelt Field Mall is now. If it is, then NO. Where will we shop, lol.


I watched something on News12 this morning about this and they said it is possible that ISP will grow with more flights in the future.

jetBlueAtJFK :D

Matt Molnar
06-21-2005, 11:20 PM
LOL, isn't that where Roosevelt Field Mall is now. If it is, then NO. Where will we shop, lol.

Online! Malls are so, like, 1994. :)

USAF Pilot 07
06-22-2005, 12:47 AM
I can't see a 15 minute drive from JFK being such a hinderance to people that already find JFK and LGA convenient, and once you go out into the Atlantic, there aren't really any hard constraints on size. There shouldn't be many NIMBYs, and airspace should not pose much of a threat to Kennedy's (if they can't even be integrated with eachother).

Haha...NIMBYs in the middle of the Atlantic...




LOL... Yea instead of NIMBY's we'd be dealing with environmentalists, PETF (People for the ethical treatment of Fish.. lol) and many of thoes nuts...

Although the idea isn't terrible, building such an airport would surely costs BILLIONS of dollars the city along with the PANYNJ doesn't have.

USAF Pilot 07
06-22-2005, 12:48 AM
Can someone say ISP????


I vote ISP as a new candidate for this fourth airport! Whos with me?


Yea read above. I said ISP needs to be given much more attention to, and needs to become similar to what ONT and LGB are to LAX.

USAF Pilot 07
06-22-2005, 01:04 AM
As for LGA, when an airport that size has 50% of its traffic being RJs....it doesn't matter how many flights out of it you have a day....that's not running at capacity. You have a slot for a 50 seat RJs that could be used to a 300 passenger 767-400. Same with wasted gate space. A CRJ at the Air Canada gate where there could be a 767-300.

And that's what I think we need in NYC. I think LGA is the only airport that would grow if given the chance. Once you remove the RJ flights, you open up more chances for medium range flights.



Yea but then you compromise service for size.

Plus, many of the RJ and smaller flights, operate to and from small markets to LGA which could not feasibly fill larger planes.
US Airways operates plenty of "low-capacity" daily flights from ALB, PVD etc.. which if you were to replace with a larger plane, would surely reduce the number of daily flights from 3 or 4 to 1, giving people less time options, and causing many of them to find alternative means of transportation, thereby "scaring" their revenue away.

There are some markets I agree with you on, but most regional markets are set up to fill flights and at the same time offer passengers multiple daily travel times. You're probably not going to fill up 1 daily MD80 or 737 SAV-LGA flight, but you may very well fill up the 3 CRJ's DL flies daily on that route.
Plus, it's not like most airlines are flying RJ's between the same market every 15 mintues. The only "frequent" RJ market I can think of out of LGA on the same airline are the AE LGA-BOS and LGA-DCA flights, which operate I believe every 2 hours.

Regional Jets are here and will become even more predominant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember hearing flying RJ's is more expensive per person per mile to fly than a larger airliner (i.e. assuming both are full to capacity). I'm sure if airlines could add larger planes on routes, and fill them up, they would. But, airlines can no longer afford to fly 1/2 empty planes and therefore have gone over to the RJ. By eliminating RJ flights, or making airlines cut down on them, you'd end up hurting the "legacy" carriers even more, as it would most likely force more people on LCC's and you would end up hurting the industry even more.

PhilDernerJr
06-22-2005, 02:48 AM
Can someone say ISP????

I know you're a big fan of ISP and all, but I think the airport is just too damn far. You're talking 50 miles fomr Manhattan. No good rail access and the NIMBYs would lose their minds.

We need something within 10 miles, I think, to make the goal effective.

PhilDernerJr
06-22-2005, 02:53 AM
Regional Jets are here and will become even more predominant. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember hearing flying RJ's is more expensive per person per mile to fly than a larger airliner (i.e. assuming both are full to capacity). I'm sure if airlines could add larger planes on routes, and fill them up, they would. But, airlines can no longer afford to fly 1/2 empty planes and therefore have gone over to the RJ. By eliminating RJ flights, or making airlines cut down on them, you'd end up hurting the "legacy" carriers even more, as it would most likely force more people on LCC's and you would end up hurting the industry even more.

Well, it all comes down to cost.

The PA will sometimes look at gaps i their slots, and then offer incentives for airlines to either move their flights to thsoe slots, or to break up a large aircraft flight into two...so to relive congestion during busy times and spread the traffic.

I'm not sure if or how much they are implementing this, though. But things like landings fees and other incentives or deterrents in order to get airlines to fly bigger planes or whatever they desire can make a big difference.

T-Bird76
06-22-2005, 10:07 AM
Ten years ago there were big plans for ISP. Islip town wanted to build a new terminal on the north side of the airport similar to the likes of BUF and PVD. This was about the time the MTA rebuilt the Ronkonkoma train station and there was suppose to be a light rail system from the station to the terminal. The entire plan feel apart because Islip Town and Brookhaven town couldn't come to an agreement on costs.

As Phil said ISP really is to far from the city to be a relief airport for JFK, LGA, and EWR. It will be interesting once Southwest completes its other four gates, eight gates is a hefty amount for Southwest and they've said they could bring 100 flights a day into ISP.

Another reason I don't see ISP being a relief airport is all the low cost carriers already serving JFK and LGA. Jet Blue, Song, and AirTran's fares are the same or better then Southwest. Why spend the extra money to take the train to fly Southwest?

ISP and Southwet do a good serving the expanding population of Long Island and ISP really is a solely Long Island Airport when you look at all the angles. Southwest doesn't even list ISP as an alternative airport for NYC like they list BWI as an alt for D.C.

Tom_Turner
06-26-2005, 11:34 AM
Plans to make Stewart into a major airport for NYC are well over 20 years old. The original plan then was to provide a (then) high Speed Rail from NYC. You'd need the same now to make that work.

Floyd Bennett is never going to happen, but I don't see it as being inherently a "problem". JFK would control the airspace for both..it'd have to function as a JFK satelite of a sort.

Years ago though, I believe runway extensions (beyond what is already there) into Jamaica Bay were killed so I don't see it happening now.

Also, I suppose Governor's Island could be turned into a very small "city" airport for Dash 8s and such...but post 911, people may not like that idea at all.

The only place for expanision is JFK during the day. Years ago, back in the late 60 s or early 70s, JFK was truly at if not over capacity in the afternoons and early evenings..the Jumbos fixed that but current economics, the airlines are not going to do that at LGA. (and, as pointed out, certain service would be hurt. I see LGA and EWR at reasonable capacity right now. Should be interesting to see what happens.