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Thread: Newark P4 roof level - 10/5/13

  1. #31
    Senior Member Jared Blech's Avatar
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    LOL thanks MoUse. Tell me when you come up... The only problem is jericho is a long walk to jfk... I could try to run but uk... I kid, But my parents usually are very good to me so ill most likely have a ride...

    As to what Phil said. We were so intolerable about Speedbird1, who we realized is an older gentleman, who just tried what we all failed to do... Talk about our passion and love for flying machines, instead we were so involved in personal battles that we turned this into a place to just insult people publicly. I think we should like phil said, have a gathering... I'm going to have to miss the bar one as i am a designated drive ;) and it would be no fun for me. but how bout a classic NYCA Spotting outing... like i used to hear the old timers talk about...
    Probably the youngest spotter ever to walk up the face of the mounds.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Idlewild's Avatar
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    Being an "old-timer", I must say seeing the reaction to the OP boggles my mind. It does seem like yesterday when a young spotter, such as myself, could easily glide anywhere throughout the major three and shoot pics to the heart's content. As well as approach airline personnel and pilots, and ask for PR stuff such as postcards, wings, pins, cups and even a sit-down in the cockpits of parked aircraft. All of which never aroused suspicion or a Q&A by law enforcement. I have lived where fellow spotters and myself would trade info and stories visiting other airports; especially EWR since it was so out of the way and they were a base for a slew of CL-44Fs and World Airways, to chastising people for posting about spotting at EWR. I know times have changed. Spotting at the major three changed 16 years before 9/11 when the Pan Am Rooftop had an 8ft (from my perspective) chicken wire installed around the perimeter in 1984, thus, ruining the aesthetic of spotting. That we have to sneak around and not report some of what we do within airport boundaries really is sad and makes me think the terrorists have successfully changed our lives so much that basic plane-spotting is looked at as suspicious and almost deviant. Very ironic considering the NYC area is a landmark in history for a lot of commercial aviation. Something else that seems to have been abandoned and not really cared about in this town. All of this nonsense is just incredible to me. But, like I keep hearing "9/11 has changed the world". End of my incoherent rant.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil D. View Post

    This "debate" has nothing to do with EWR.
    I think it does. If we were talking about JFK this wouldn't be happening. Though I think we should not post about any private property shooting. Even if PA is tolerating it. We still have to coexist with people who want to hassle us. Whether right or wrong and IMO less said publicly the better.

    OP may actually have a point that EWR may be getting a little more tolerant. Though the day may have had something to do with it I think posting about shooting at that location was irresponsible. I think it's better handled in house and not published so outsiders can get wrong idea and set us back by flocking to these spots right away. As we have seen as time passes things slowly change but it does also need some common sense. Many valid points have been made here.

    I don't think EWR should be considered a no go. You just have to treat it differently than LGA or JFK and do it in doses. If you want it to be accessible in the future.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  4. #34
    Senior Member Fighting_falcon_51's Avatar
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    Jared, I would just like to say you deserve a medal for what you just posted.

    Just like you I am a "youngin" and I joined this site when I was 13. Since then I have met people and had experiences that people could only hope for in a lifetime. This website has had an influence on me all throughout high school and now in college (although the school work is overwhelming and spotting has been on the back burner for a little bit) and I honestly hope you have the same experience here as I did.

    As far as the "new comers" go, I understand we all go through the phase of "oh crap, I shouldn't have said that" or "oh, crap I shouldn't have done that." But once you are corrected multiple times there really aren't many excuses.

    NYCA is like a second family to most of us and it is open to anyone who wants to genuinely join, but once you start bringing us down and start the "family" things usually do not end well.

    That's my two cents anyway.
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Delta777LR's Avatar
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    Jared- Although we were there to talk you down with a lot of info on AVspotting and editing etc, but I gotta admitted to you my friend, you are totaly incredible. And I give you an A plus on that post..
    Sergio has been a huge Delta Air Lines fan since 1992!!

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69 View Post
    I think it does. If we were talking about JFK this wouldn't be happening. Though I think we should not post about any private property shooting. Even if PA is tolerating it. We still have to coexist with people who want to hassle us. Whether right or wrong and IMO less said publicly the better.

    OP may actually have a point that EWR may be getting a little more tolerant. Though the day may have had something to do with it I think posting about shooting at that location was irresponsible. I think it's better handled in house and not published so outsiders can get wrong idea and set us back by flocking to these spots right away. As we have seen as time passes things slowly change but it does also need some common sense. Many valid points have been made here.

    I don't think EWR should be considered a no go. You just have to treat it differently than LGA or JFK and do it in doses. If you want it to be accessible in the future.
    My sentiments exactly in this thread as it was in another tread in this forum. That is until I was told to "tread carefully." I don't think a get together is good at this point. There is at least one person who should not share a room with me. The best thing for me to do is join the list of old timers who have migrated away from the site altogether. It is becoming a struggle to sit by and watch something I enjoyed get tarnished by a few with apparently no recourse (and that so were crystal clear does not pertain to all the newbies as my words yet again have been twisted to say). If anyone who doesn't have my info wants to keep in touch shoot me a pm.
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  7. #37
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Sorry, Kenny. I think it's time we all man up and put our garbage aside to come together. If at that point we see it doesn't work, then we can at least move forward knowing we tried and have some sort of way to interact to avoid each other. But this internet stuff that's been going on is for the dogs.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  8. #38
    Senior Member MarkLawrence's Avatar
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    Holy moly guys!! As the old saying goes - can we just get along????

    This is from an outsider that has visited NY a few times over the years and has had nothing but incredible interaction with everybody there. That being said, there have always been issues with Port Authority and Law Enforcement as a whole there. I remember having to produce my Florida drivers licence at the Mounds only to be asked by the certain LEO "You came here to do this for the weekend". I am lucky, down here in Florida, we don't have that sort of attitude from LE or the airports - heck - in Miami, there is a group that meets with MIA people all the time (the Deputy Director all the way down to security) to see how we can best do our hobby and help them in any way. At our airports, LE comes out and joins us.

    What am I trying to say? Well, it all comes down to common sense - and - use that as your guide. Our hobby lives on that precarious line in a lot of places around the country/world - a lot of them it is tolerated more than other places, but, as I say, it comes down to common sense (of course Kenny never uses his wearing shorts in 34 degree weather on a very cold Sunday morning - no - I will NEVER let you forget that one man!!).

    And - yes - I need another trip up there soon! At least I entertain some people - right Nick V?????
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil D. View Post
    Sorry, Kenny. I think it's time we all man up and put our garbage aside to come together. If at that point we see it doesn't work, then we can at least move forward knowing we tried and have some sort of way to interact to avoid each other. But this internet stuff that's been going on is for the dogs.
    I'm going to move forward Phil. Don't worry about that.

    Quality > quantity.

    Have a good one guys.
    Last edited by wunaladreamin; 10-09-2013 at 12:30 PM.
    R.I.P. Matt Molnar 1979-2013
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  10. #40
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkLawrence View Post

    And - yes - I need another trip up there soon! At least I entertain some people - right Nick V?????
    You bet Mark! You epitomize the fun there is to be had. Shooting and then dinner with a beer. I hope you either come up or I come down soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil D
    Sorry, Kenny. I think it's time we all man up and put our garbage aside to come together. If at that point we see it doesn't work, then we can at least move forward knowing we tried and have some sort of way to interact to avoid each other. But this internet stuff that's been going on is for the dogs.
    I have to say I think the moderating or lack thereof has more to do with this. We see way to many low quality threads, flamebait and off topic stuff. Without moderation it just goes downhill fast. I also believe threads containing posts about shooting anywhere but public property should be handled better. Even if PA is tolerant. In the long run it's better for everyone involved if this is discussed privately.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  11. #41
    Senior Member megatop412's Avatar
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    Now what in the hell happened here, Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick this issue is like the textbook definition of the Streisand Effect. I like the posts about using common sense but people have to realize the wide degree of interpretation people have with that. Nobody had to sign their name in blood to join this group, and it is a free country. If someone wants to ruin their day by being too visible @ EWR and then having to deal with the PA, let 'em have at it. Everyone keeps saying 'all the work that Phil's done could be jeopardized' and I joined the chorus of thank-yous to him for everything he has done, but really, did anything that Phil did make things even the slightest bit easier for us AT EWR? No, and on top of that, we're all screaming at each other like a bunch of rat bastards. If you are an 'old timer' here, you should know that you can't make the horse drink, all you can do is lead them to the water. Remember the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If you're new here and don't want to listen to people that know better, why are you here instead of out there showing everyone how much you don't need NYCA. Don't bitch when no one responds to your threads. There is nothing to 'lose' at Newark Int'l. I was there 2 months ago to grab the damn ecojet and no one slammed me about it. And even if they did, so effin what, life is full of decisions you do the best you can with. It's when you're careless with those decisions that real problems occur. Phil I would love to come down to schmooze and drink that Tuesday but I have to take a rain check so I don't piss my new boss off, you're right, the internet really sucks sometimes.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Jared Blech's Avatar
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    Nick, I do agree about the low quality threads, but I just think we should just stop pointing fingers, putting blame on whom or what. It's really a shame on how this turned out, and so sad to see this happen to such a special and talented group of people like us. I mean, this used to be or (Still is) a site where one could really feel like family, now its just a website full of personal-based posts about jealousy, and ego's.

    Can't we all just try to remember how much fun chasing a special is... the rush of being out there waiting for a good catch to come in. I really believe we can recover some of the magic that the site had back in its heyday if some of the Old timers posted a spotting review... I don't think I've seen Cary, Kaz, or some of the other well-respected spotters post a review in ...like...ever since I've been here. Not calling anybody out, saying...Why don't you post!? or saying that they are the problem, because they are clearly not. I just feel like if I saw Cary, or the other guys I've only heard about, post some from their outing... it would give young spotters like me some motivation... At leasts thats what I was driven by when I started. One day I would look at some of these A.net shots from the past and go, "wow, I wanna do that!". I really don't think anybody here would not enjoy some classic Aviation Art from some of the Oldies...

    Lastly, I really love what NYCA has done... It has made me a more sociable person in general... Being in this day in age, with all the scares about children be "taken" and "stranger danger", I will admit I was nervous about meeting some guy 20-30 years older than me... in the middle of a field. Especially off the internet, to do what most people call "weird and crazy". So I really encourage other young spotters to come forward (as long as they feel comfortable) to go spotting so we can carry the hobby in a positive direction that the founding fathers pointed it in.

    Have a good night everybody.
    Probably the youngest spotter ever to walk up the face of the mounds.
    Jared B. -Boces Aviation Ops Student, Jericho NY

  13. #43
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Blech View Post
    Nick, I do agree about the low quality threads, but I just think we should just stop pointing fingers, putting blame on whom or what. It's really a shame on how this turned out, and so sad to see this happen to such a special and talented group of people like us. I mean, this used to be or (Still is) a site where one could really feel like family, now its just a website full of personal-based posts about jealousy, and ego's.
    That is what life is though. Emotions like jealousy are going to be prevalent anywhere and much more so behind the safety of the keyboard. Just because you are at NYCAV doesn't mean things will turn into the Garden of Eden where everyone loves each other. I am afraid you are asking a bit too much.

    This is why sites have moderators. So everyone can use the forums and not be subjected to it time and time again. I know Phil tries but the forum here has been like the wild west for a long time. Mostly anything goes and most threads like this one degenerate rather quickly. It is what it is and like Kenny some have just chosen to not post or limit what they post. In a way I think it's better because some things need to be said whether it's good or bad.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  14. #44
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    I'm not getting reeled into this $hitshow of a thread, the only thing I wanted to post was around quality of threads and moderating. Some of you seem to forget that we lost a major contributor to NYCA this year, one who both brought balance to forum discussions as well as moderating. I'd just ask that you guys give Phil and the team a break on that one, there's probably still some stuff to be figured out on that front. Not making excuses, just ask you not to point fingers as it's definitely contributing to the adversarial tone.
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  15. #45
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    If this is the wild west, I'd hate to see your description of what Anet, JP, FlyerTalk or 90% of other aviation forums are like. Not that we are perfect, of course.

    There are areas of the site that took a beating since Matt died, of which some are still trying to recover. To be honest, forum moderation was one area that Matt kept away from because he had so much other stuff on his plate. The forums have been my realm since day one.

    As I've always said...if something needs moderating...please report the post (as many do), because there are things we will miss. If there is a new rule that you feel we need, I am always all ears. In fact, most people have no idea how much moderating DOES go on here...it is constant.

    I can also only moderate if someone violates a rule (double topics, personal attacks, and all the other things we have outlined in our rules). I can't go nuts on a member because someone doesn't like another person, and not because someone doesn't like a topic. I can't delete a thread because people think some EWR spots shouldn't be talked about. There is no clear and direct security issue.

    Think Ben should not post about EWR spots? Then say so nicely or sit down to talk about your concerns. I'm sure there is a compromise. Ben's one of the nicest people around...if he's not friendly or approachable enough...then who is?

    Don't like Jason? Then go have a man to man with him. If by chance he doesn't respond as you'd like, then you can block him here and ignore him in person and you won't have that problem anymore. I am sure he would be equally relieved. Or maybe you two would find there was a misunderstanding and that you can all play nice. Crazier things have happened.

    But those two things are not forum moderator issues, until people start arguing about it or casting personal attacks here. I can moderate all day, but that's not going to make people feel better in person. Ultimately, these are social issues, not forum issues. No rules were violated i n this thread.

    I find it ironic because I know if I did do something like delete this topic, the same person that says it is wild west will then say we are censoring people. I only see one person in this thread complaining about the management of the forums itself. I find great irony in it because this person has the audacity to complain, yet contribute nothing to the community by not only not offering a suggestion on a new rule or solution, but by refusing to offer direct examples of what it is they are complaining about (save for Speedbrd1). This is also the same person who talks about how terrible the forums have been for so long, and yet the only times there have been tremendous flame wars, he is always the active participant, most often the one that starting fights with people, complaining and contributing absolutely zilch. It's like the arsonist complaining that there are too many fires. My personal opinion is that maybe I am too soft on here, because I would have banned you a long time ago, Nick.

    Bring on the complaints! I do love them and I do get them! But help me help you instead of just b*itching.

    "Low quality threads" have been the result of one member, unless there is something people haven't been telling me. That person has received much leniency because he MEANS well and is someone that we do interact with in person. He is a kind man and we have spent a long time trying to correct his behavior so that he can use NYCA to practice his passion for aviation because not everyone has many other options. Call me a softie but it would kill me to deny people a way that they really want to practice their passion. I'm sorry it wasn't solved sooner, but we have found a new solution just recently that we feel will control the problem, which we still implementing. For those whose experiences have been affected by Speedbird1's posts, my apologies. I can definitely take that the blame on that one.

    Otherwise...what exactly is it that people want me to do in this current situation? Anyone? Seriously...because there's little I can do or can think of, because I can't stop people from going to EWR and I can't make people like other people any more or less in real life.

    If we have personal beefs, let's meet up and talk about it. If you don't want to, then I'll drink by myself at the bar on the 29th.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

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