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Thread: Newark P4 roof level - 10/5/13

  1. #16
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    "Those" new comers seem not to have the same respect as they should towards the group or the site. Now that's a shame! Stop being on a one track mind and just listen to what some of the older members have to say, that is how it's done, not putting your foot down and blowing off the advice you are given. When I joined this site, I sat back, listened, watched and learned in every way possible and gained my respect, wouldn't dare to come on here and run my mouth. This is what I personally have been seeing my self lately with some new members, wanting to just take control and acting like they know it all.
    Last edited by Roush6NY; 10-08-2013 at 08:48 PM.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mldoc View Post


    I had a positive experience here, at an airport that is not known for positive experiences. It does not mean that others will have the same experience that I had. It also doesn't mean that we should be planning the EWR planespotting meetup for next October with 100 planespotters from around the country. But to say that sharing a positive experience is a bad thing simply because of where it happened is just plain foolish.
    I have had many positive experiences at EWR long before you came along. I accomplished this by using my head and not posting about them in a public forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by wunaladreaming
    The rules have NOT changed. And that's because these theoretical rules NEVER existed publicly. The issue is this new flock we have here seem to feel entitlement to do spot however and wherever they see fit without again using consequential thinking in regards. This is not a direction we as a group should be taking.
    Very good point.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  3. #18
    Senior Member lijk604's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mldoc View Post
    And I would tread very carefully with your generalizations regarding the "new flock". Grouping everybody who hasn't been planespotting for several years together and then bashing that group is definitely not the direction that this group should ever be taking. I joined this community because of how accepting it was towards those looking to enter the hobby. Some here seem to have lost that level of acceptance lately. And that's a damn shame.
    Ben, when I joined this group way back when, I looked to guys like Nick, Eric & Moose (as they were the guys I saw most) I listened to what they had to say and learned what were the "hot" places to do a grab and run, WITH that being the only expectation. Pull up, shoot your shot, and move on. You can dig through the archives to find stories of people who took liberties with info that should not have been made public and we lost some good locations.

    The "new flock" here seem to take everything people say and only hear what they want, that you can get a shot wherever you are, and get pissed and complain when the police pull up and ID check them. Phil has done some amazing work to try and get the Port to understand us, however, the security teams still do not get it. Is T5 a decent spot? Well, if you like to pay through the nose for parking and taking heat hazed shots in the middle of the day, fine. Honestly, if I see that T5 was the only spot to shoot, I'll stay home. I'd rather shoot at Bayswater, Costco or the Mounds where a group can get together hang, shoot the ****, and have a bunch of laughs.

    This thread is getting way off topic, but Phil has spent many years building NYCA into a well respected site, and the lack of respect from some of the "new flock" is damaging all that he has done.

  4. #19
    First of all, any time Nick V gets involved in a thread, you must know that it just got real. I can't help but echo what everyone else has already said, but with the addition that along with a small group of other members, I was "victimized" (as you call it) by Port Authority. There were no rules prohibiting our hobby then, and there are none now (as I understand it, thanks to Phil's amazing work). You can read all about that incident in the other forums. The difference with our experience, was that we all chose to learn and grow with the community's guidance. And that guidance came from the experience and wisdom (sorry if that makes you feel old guys) of people like Nick, Eric, and Moose, along with several others. Some of the members I was with have moved on with their lives, and others have continued to spot very humbly. ALL of us learned a huge lesson in DISCRETION. Since the topic of discretion obviously hasn't resonated with some members, I'll draw some parallels.

    1. Just because you CAN drink a 750mL of vodka on your own, doesn't mean you should. Odds are, your liver will suffer, and you may lose lots of friends.
    2. Just because you CAN be naked in public in Vermont, doesn't mean you should exploit that and start dry humping things. I need not continue.

    I hope you get the point. Just because the rules say you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. I don't mean that in the sense to say DON'T spot at EWR, but DO exorcise proper judgement and discretion by NOT posting about it in a public forum. That point has been made, and beaten to a pulp. Anyone here who has seen in the forums and various other publications what Phil has achieved in working with the various authorities for our hobby KNOWS that he has done incredible work. However, I feel that VERY few of us can truly APPRECIATE the work that he has done, unless you've been working directly with him on those efforts. I for one, can't claim to appreciate his work in the truest sense. Let's cut the entitlement crap, learn some respect for the people who have been through it all before (regardless of new rules or old rules), and make the community a better place.
    Have you ever seen a grown man naked?

  5. #20
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    There will always be debate on whether certain locations should or shouldn't be discussed in a public setting. And that is a fine debate.

    Personally, I am surprised at the tone at which some people are approaching this particular topic. We can express our views without being rude to kind, fellow spotters. There is a nicer way to approach things when you disagree.

    For me personally, EWR is a terrible place, and we have nothing to really lose there. So since Port has finally been willing to admit that there is no rule against photography, I'd have no problem testing that a little bit (still not enough to make me want to enter NEW JERSEY, but that's another topic). So if someone does want to test those waters in a location that isn't bad news and has a good experience...then the Spotter Blotter is exactly for that.

    Some may feel that is still shouldn't be posted. But again, it's not like doing so is going to ruin this great location that people have been enjoying on the low all this time (or have they? PM me if so).

    Ultimately, we are all in this together. We should be approaching our disagreements in a more friendly manner.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mldoc View Post
    Of course the rules have changed. Just because they have chosen not to make them public for whatever reason does not change the fact that they know what the rules are now and that we know what the rules are now. These are rules that were just confirmed to me last week by somebody inside of the Port Authority. They may not be publishing them, but they sure aren't hiding them either.

    And I would tread very carefully with your generalizations regarding the "new flock". Grouping everybody who hasn't been planespotting for several years together and then bashing that group is definitely not the direction that this group should ever be taking. I joined this community because of how accepting it was towards those looking to enter the hobby. Some here seem to have lost that level of acceptance lately. And that's a damn shame.
    What rules?!?! You have a buddy who has a law degree and allegedly specializes in research. Find me the old rules and find me these new rules.

    Tread lightly? Is that supposed to be a threat Ben? Because I'm not one to stand for that crap. I'm not out to bash anyone but what some of the new folks here need to do is check their ego at the door and realize that many MANY sacrifices were made in paving the way for the new guys in regards to ease of spotting. NOBODY IS ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. GET OFF OF YOUR HIGH HORSE KIDDO.

    i joined this community for many of the same reasons as the majority. And like that majority I kept my mouth shut, my eyes and ears open, paid some of my own dues in regards to LEOs, and I still try to help the next generation as I was helped along the way. I went out each and every time with no sense of entitlement, with no made up "rules" folded away in my pocket, puffing my chest out and expecting everyone else to back off. If you want to earn the respect of many of us, I suggest you follow suit. Otherwise whatever ends up in your signature like some others here will only be an empty title.

    Tread lightly lol most of us have more time in the urinal than you have in the field.
    Last edited by wunaladreamin; 10-08-2013 at 10:54 PM.
    R.I.P. Matt Molnar 1979-2013
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Jared Blech's Avatar
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    Sorry for the long essay.
    I'M BEING COMPLETELY NEUTRAL ON THIS ONE. I would like to try and share my thoughts on valid points from BOTH SIDES OF THIS DEBATE. Both sides have their fair and notable points, and are both well stated.

    Just my two cents, MY PERCEPTION, of what I think has been going on lately on the site. Many of you have met me, and I'm so new here, it's very difficult for me to interpret what has happened in the past so I do not and will not have any opinion on the past. I am aware that things like this happen in communities like this, arguing will occur occasionally, people will have small grudges on one another, and different opinions will be defended. But at the end of the day, I personally believe a lot of us are all here because we love Aviation. Whether it be helicopters, heavy airliners, or general aviation...photographing them, flying them, or just sitting back, taking in the smells, sights, and sounds... I think most of us have some sort of passion for things that fly. Again, I'm pretty new and I enjoy being friendly with everyone here, most of the people here are extremely kind and helping. I would just like to state that even if I agree with someone's statement, it doesn't mean anything but, that they make a valid point. I agree and disagree with various points from both sides.

    Ben mentioned earlier
    "I joined this community because of how accepting it was towards those looking to enter the hobby. Some here seem to have lost that level of acceptance lately".

    I have to agree with him on this, In January of this year I went to Cosco for the first time for about 6 hours, that was one of the best experiences of my life still to this day. I never really got the chance to just sit and realize how amazing these machines were because of the fact that I never knew that spotting was an actual thing until NYCAviation. In march, I finally decided to create an account and posted a few images from my backyard that day, nothing but compliments and warm welcomes. Thats why I came to NYCA. Nothing but kindness and friendliness from all. I gazed at usernames that i've recognized from A.net, "legends", with over a thousand photos in the Database, and I was getting advice and tips from these guys... These were the people who inspired me to pursue aviation and to further indulge myself into learning aviation photography. From what I've seen Since joining and becoming an active member, things have gotten a little sour between members, again I'm sure it happened before i came here, (not disregarding the fact it happened just because I wasn't here to see it), but some members have kind of been pushing newbies away, Not necessarily me, but in general. (IMO)

    Kenny also states a valid and well stated point,
    "The rules have NOT changed. And that's because these theoretical rules NEVER existed publicly. The issue is this new flock we have here seem to feel entitlement to do spot however and wherever they see fit without again using consequential thinking in regards. This is not a direction we as a group should be taking".

    Although Phil has made some incredible steps for all of us, and we thank him greatly, the fact of the matter is, IMO, The rules only changes when everybody is informed...Security, police, and other agencies we encounter while spotting. Yes, the PANYNJ legal department may know about who we are and what we do, but unless the information is shared with Allied barton, PA cops, etc... The "rule" is basically the same.

    As I'm writing this, there have been several posts just put up, I just think as phil said, we have nothing to lose at EWR. I rarely ever go through NJ... I don't need to, but just use good judgement... From what I've been told from older members, cosco and the mounds used to be cold to spotters on occasion, but just last week (UN week), there were about 30 or so at cosco and the mounds both days. When I spot at the mounds now... It's like the soccer players are so used to us... they don't even turn their heads, I'll take that any day. Be smart out there and remember what we all came to this site for.

    Lastly, I would like to take the time to thank some members who helped and inspired me. Manny inspired me to pursue AVphotography, I can't thank him enough. And all others like Cary, Don... He's like a second "planespotting father" to me, helping me along the winding road of life in general, Kenny, also thank him a lot for coming over to me on a crowded Jones beach and making me feel like one of the guys. Ben, Sergio, Mark, Akie, Kaz, Phil, Eric and so many others... Thank you all so much for the guidance and help with both editing , shooting or just life in general. I hope theres years to come!
    Last edited by Jared Blech; 10-08-2013 at 11:27 PM.
    Probably the youngest spotter ever to walk up the face of the mounds.
    Jared B. -Boces Aviation Ops Student, Jericho NY

  8. #23
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    Jared, you're a good egg bro and it's been a pleasure to get to know you. Knowing that the proverbial torch is being passed to people like you will mean the hobby as it has been to me will live on.
    R.I.P. Matt Molnar 1979-2013
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  9. #24
    Senior Member Jared Blech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunaladreamin View Post
    Jared, you're a good egg bro and it's been a pleasure to get to know you. Knowing that the proverbial torch is being passed to people like you will mean the hobby as it has been to me will live on.
    Thanks ken, means a lot coming from you. Hope to see you out there soon.

    As for any new member reading this post right now, who don't have an account and are reading this publicly. If you're thinking about wanting to join us in this wonderful journey called plane spotting, come right along. Argument is part of human nature and without argument, everything would be the same, nothing would ever change. So sometimes a good little debate has some pro's as it reveals certain issues or points that you may have not thought about.

    This Thread is not what NYCA is all about... It's about friendship, and passion all for the same thing. Don't be hesitant to join because of one forum debate you read. As long as you follow the posting guidelines, and follow advice from veteran's, you will turn out just fine. Look at me, Only been here since march and my first A.net acceptance in April... I've already got 25 pictures on A.net. Not too shnabby for a 16 year old kid with very loving parents who take me spotting all the time! thanks mom and dad if you ever stumble across this!
    Last edited by Jared Blech; 10-08-2013 at 11:25 PM.
    Probably the youngest spotter ever to walk up the face of the mounds.
    Jared B. -Boces Aviation Ops Student, Jericho NY

  10. #25
    Senior Member Aviation.High.Guy's Avatar
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    Jared- I would like to echo Kenny's post in that it's great to see "new blood" like you joining the hobby and Aviation in general. I know you'll soar high in the years to come.
    -Don B.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Aviation.High.Guy's Avatar
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    Now if I could only get my kid off Minecraft and out to the field with me some time...
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviation.High.Guy View Post
    Now if I could only get my kid off Minecraft and out to the field with me some time...
    I'm too busy playing Temple Run 2 to find out what Minecraft is lol.
    R.I.P. Matt Molnar 1979-2013
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    LETS GO CAPS!
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  13. #28
    Senior Member Jared Blech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aviation.High.Guy View Post
    Now if I could only get my kid off Minecraft and out to the field with me some time...
    Whats wrong with me??? I'm like the aviation blooded son you've always wanted!
    Probably the youngest spotter ever to walk up the face of the mounds.
    Jared B. -Boces Aviation Ops Student, Jericho NY

  14. #29
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    This passive aggressive internet bull is getting old. I read this thread and I want to gouge out my own eyeballs.

    I'll try to type as simple and direct on this as possible.

    This "debate" has nothing to do with EWR. This is because some people have a negative feeling toward a person and subsequently toward those that are kind toward this person. You all know it. If it were purely about how spotting locations were addressed and not about other personal differences, I know you folks wouldn't be speaking like that toward each other.

    I don't want to play the "who me, he, she" finger pointing. We have a large crowd. Larger than ever before. Not everyone is going to like everyone. Conflict also isn't new in the NYC spotting community. I've just never seen it grow or materialize like this.

    I dare either side to stop for a second and think that regardless of how you may feel, we are all in this to have fun and to take a step toward peacefully expressing your issues with other people in an honest, friendly manner, with the intent to be find a peaceful resolution as adults. Maybe in private, or wherever, a simply "Dude...I gotta say, I feel that sometimes you act like 'this' and it upsets me," is all it would take to start a peaceful dialogue and work to at least co-exist. Even in the end...you don't have to like everyone. But we're all here.

    I regret not voicing my thoughts sooner toward to address the situation both internally and externally at NYCA, so I am to blame and am guilty as well. I'm sorry for that.

    For now, I am going to be at some bar in Queens on October 29th at 7pm (I'll pick a spot as it gets closer), starting off by myself. If any of you guys on either "side" want to join me and talk about it over a beer or 5, be adults and hash it all out, then I would love nothing more. The forums, Twitter...I'm just tired of it. This stuff is public...is anyone else embarrassed by it? I sure am.

    This garbage going on lately isn't what we are about, and every single one of us, myself included, is better than that. And you folks complained about Speedbird messing up the forums? $hit.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  15. #30
    Senior Member moose135's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared Blech View Post
    I think most of us have some sort of passion for things that fly.
    Me? I'm here for the women...
    ;-)

    Hope to get to spot with you next time I'm in NY, Jared.

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