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Thread: Very Recent JFK Incident at T6 Parking Lot

  1. #16
    Senior Member yankees368's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zee71 View Post
    A side note: I work in an environment that is strictly driven by regulations, policies and procedures just to name a few. I want to see the written word that states all this illegal hullabaloo of photographing or looking at planes. If I don't see the written word it may be likely made up or they don't know. I am done!
    You can't see it, because such a rule does not exist but for the officers head.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzalu View Post
    I am sorry but, entertaining ANYONE without proper identification themselves is just plain silly. As a matter of fact, and Jason may correct me here, if you claim to be a police officer when you aren't really one is illegal...

    The first thing a police officer should do is properly identify themselves with ID, not even a badge will be sufficient unless you are in full uniform. What can I say... silly to even have more than a casual thank you very much have a nice day, sir!

    Pretty sure that is a felony, even.
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  2. #17
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    Hey guys,

    Thanks a lot for your encouragement and support! It means a lot. I wonít be commenting on this further because the PA is looking into this and it isnít wise to comment on an open investigation.

    Thanks again!

  3. #18
    Senior Member Cary's Avatar
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    Well, unfortunately, sometimes these things won't ever change until someone opens a lawsuit. Some of you might be familiar with Washington DC spotter, Jerome Vorus, who was detained twice for taking pictures - the first at DCA, and the second while taking pics of a traffic stop. Although I believe the lawsuit centered around the recording of law enforcement in the second instance, Jerome won the case, and the Metropolitan Police Department had to clarify that it was perfectly legal to record law enforcement, as long as it didn't interfere with their duties. Here are some links regarding the incidents and lawsuit:

    http://reason.com/blog/2012/07/23/dc...re-photography
    http://www.pixiq.com/article/dc-phot...ctures-of-cops
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...with-a-camera/

    I don't mind law enforcement checking me out and asking some questions, but when they start spouting off fake laws about watching or taking pics of airplanes - or [Elizabeth PD] yelling at me to leave from a public area, it becomes ridiculous.
    Last edited by Cary; 10-17-2012 at 03:24 PM.
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  4. #19
    Senior Member gonzalu's Avatar
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    Mark and I have experienced this during UN week a year ago when a VERY POLITE and PROFESSIONAL Nassau County PO asked us to not take pictures at North Woodmere. When I challenged him, he could not really offer a real violation and only that he was asked to tell folks not to photograph due to UN week security while seemingly others were allowed to stay and fish in the public grounds. Lucky for him they switched from the 4s to the 31s and so we left but the officer was well aware that our civil liberties would be violated. We had a friendly discussion on the subject and he appreciated us politely complying and leaving.

    I am not about to start an argument or endanger our hobby but it is always wise to politely and courteously challenge these encounters and at the very least always ask what laws are being violated, state that it is legal to take pictures in public places of publicly visible things as long as they are not in a known off-limits list such as US Military Installations or I believe also Nuclear Power Plants are off limits now... and I really don't care about taking pictures of Cooling Stacks...

    Now, what if I like taking pictures of clouds and blue skies and a plane gets in the way? Would my rights as a cloud and blue skies lover be protected by the officer?

    BTW, you have seen this, right? It is an absolute must read

    http://www.apath.org/creating_religion.html
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  5. #20
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    I love how everyone is offering this enthusiast that many of you haven't met, so much support.

    I'm writing something up that will be live on the site soon. As mentioned already here, there is no OFFICIAL rule from PANYNJ about photography or planespotting, and the lack of guidance is what leads to treatment like we see here. It is not acceptable, and though calling for an official rule from them may end the use of certain locations, I want to see an end of spotters being treated like we are a criminal threat, and harassed and insulted by people whose salaries we pay.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  6. #21
    Senior Member yankees368's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil D. View Post
    I love how everyone is offering this enthusiast that many of you haven't met, so much support.

    I'm writing something up that will be live on the site soon. As mentioned already here, there is no OFFICIAL rule from PANYNJ about photography or planespotting, and the lack of guidance is what leads to treatment like we see here. It is not acceptable, and though calling for an official rule from them may end the use of certain locations, I want to see an end of spotters being treated like we are a criminal threat, and harassed and insulted by people whose salaries we pay.
    I don't have a problem with the PA creating a rule banning photography on their property. If one is created, so be it. What we all should have a problem with, is their offers and employees making up law as they go, which is unacceptable. I support anyone who was harassed by a PAPD officer.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzalu View Post
    Mark and I have experienced this during UN week a year ago when a VERY POLITE and PROFESSIONAL Nassau County PO asked us to not take pictures at North Woodmere. When I challenged him, he could not really offer a real violation and only that he was asked to tell folks not to photograph due to UN week security while seemingly others were allowed to stay and fish in the public grounds.]
    Was that this year? If not, that happened this year as well. A new parks employee at NW Park called the police, and a NCPD officer rolled down to talk to us. After we had a little chat, he said he knows it's not illegal, finish what we were there to do, and he wouldn't kick us out. How nice is that?
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  7. #22
    Senior Member gonzalu's Avatar
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    "Hello ma'am ... I understand you're just walking with your baby on a nice summer day. Please finish what you are here to do and I won't have to kick you out..." how nice is that?
    Manny Gonzalez
    Thrust Images | General Photography | R.I.P. Matt Molnar 1979-2013
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  8. #23
    Senior Member megatop412's Avatar
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    Phil I was going to ask if you wanted to jump in on this topic but didn't want you to feel like your position obligated an official response so I bit my tongue. That said, thanks in advance and I/we look forward to your advice.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Zee71's Avatar
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    I am sure you are all aware there were plane spotters during World War II. So plane spotting shouldn't be illegal because the US Government sanctioned it. Here is an interesting link about spotters during WW II

    http://www.colebrookhistoricalsociet...rs of WWII.pdf
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  10. #25
    Senior Member Gerard's Avatar
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    From one of my threads, I hope PAPD doesnt see this

    ......http://rt.com/usa/news/lapd-suspicious-photo-sar-553/

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil D. View Post
    I love how everyone is offering this enthusiast that many of you haven't met, so much support.

    I'm writing something up that will be live on the site soon. As mentioned already here, there is no OFFICIAL rule from PANYNJ about photography or planespotting, and the lack of guidance is what leads to treatment like we see here. It is not acceptable, and though calling for an official rule from them may end the use of certain locations, I want to see an end of spotters being treated like we are a criminal threat, and harassed and insulted by people whose salaries we pay.
    Thanks so much, Phil. I really appreciate the kind words and support and it does make me feel better, although I am still feeling really let down because I really did have a lot of respect for the Port as an organization before and even applied for several jobs there.

    Like I said, I can't say anything more because the Port is actually going to investigate this.

    Once again, thanks for the support. This is truly an awesome community and I hope to meet many of you guys soon at a NYCaviation get-together.

  12. #27
    Senior Member megatop412's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zee71 View Post
    I am sure you are all aware there were plane spotters during World War II. So plane spotting shouldn't be illegal because the US Government sanctioned it. Here is an interesting link about spotters during WW II

    http://www.colebrookhistoricalsociet...rs of WWII.pdf
    Interesting you should bring that up Mark, as my father was one of these folks that was trained to be a spotter in his days with the Coast Artillery before migrating over to the AAF and being sent to Europe. More on that, along with some recently scanned photos, for an upcoming Veterans Day thread

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzalu View Post
    I am sorry but, entertaining ANYONE without proper identification themselves is just plain silly. As a matter of fact, and Jason may correct me here, if you claim to be a police officer when you aren't really one is illegal...

    The first thing a police officer should do is properly identify themselves with ID, not even a badge will be sufficient unless you are in full uniform. What can I say... silly to even have more than a casual thank you very much have a nice day, sir!
    The whole thing smelled suspicious to me. My suggestion in a situation where two people who claim to be police officers yet refuse to properly produce ID would be to call 911, tell them where you are, and that you have two people claiming to be police yet refusing to show ID in a manner that you may inspect it. Request that they send a uniformed officer in a marked car. This way, if they are not cops, you're going to get legitimate help in a (hopefully) timely manner. If they ARE cops, then they will hopefully learn the error of their ways. Plus, you have the 911 recording to back up any claims you have should you decide to make a complaint or press some kind of charges down the road.

    How can they fault you as long as you're polite? They can't say you're resisting or putting up a fight; after all--you're calling the police! If they are cops, they don't even need to call for reinforcements--you're doing it for them.

    On a personal level, I always carry a camera when I fly. Next time I go to JFK, you can bet that while I'm doing my preflight walk around, I will have my D300 with me and make liberal use of it on the ramp. I'd love to get stopped...

  14. #29
    Senior Member Mateo's Avatar
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    It's very telling and somewhat sad that none of us are surprised at the actions of the Port Authority Police.

    As per the ID question - there was a Supreme Court decision about 5 years ago, someone vs. Nevada, regarding when you had to show a police officer ID. There are limited exceptions, but generally, yes, you have to.

    The other legal distinction is that when you're being questioned by police, you are in one of two states. You are either under arrest, or you are not under arrest. There's nothing stopping you from asking the officer "am I free to leave?" If yes, you can turn heel and walk away. If no, then you are under arrest, and subject to the protections given to you in Miranda, which means you don't have to answer anything else, although you might not make your friend's pickup (but will probably enjoy later suing the Port for arresting you without reasonable suspicion).

  15. #30
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snydersnapshots View Post
    The whole thing smelled suspicious to me. My suggestion in a situation where two people who claim to be police officers yet refuse to properly produce ID would be to call 911, tell them where you are, and that you have two people claiming to be police yet refusing to show ID in a manner that you may inspect it. Request that they send a uniformed officer in a marked car. This way, if they are not cops, you're going to get legitimate help in a (hopefully) timely manner. If they ARE cops, then they will hopefully learn the error of their ways. Plus, you have the 911 recording to back up any claims you have should you decide to make a complaint or press some kind of charges down the road.
    Word for word what I was going to say. Great points.
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