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Thread: National Opt Out Day We. 24Nov

  1. #61
    Senior Member megatop412's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emshighway View Post
    No we didn't, Pilots are exempt from the AIT only, they have been all along. The pilot in Tennessee wasn't flying the plane, he was a passenger so subject to screening as every one else.

    Before you post a link to a news article about pilots showing two forms of ID to get past screening it isn't true. It is something the unions put out.
    I never posted any link, not sure what you mean there, unless you meant it as a comment to posters in general.

    I do however remember reading that pilots had to go through the machines and pat-downs like everybody else. If the news media screwed that up, that's ****ty journalism on their part. It brings to light the whole "who is telling the truth anymore" problem in news. Anyway, thank you for clearing that up for me

  2. #62
    Senior Member emshighway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coachrowsey View Post
    Video has been taken down, however National Opt Out Day is one day closer & TSA here is worried about it. They've already had meetings over it.
    Which video? There are always meeting before big travel days to make sure airport, airlines and TSA are communicating. I'm sure there are several meeting and conference calls about the 24th.
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' "
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  3. #63
    Senior Member emshighway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megatop412 View Post
    I never posted any link, not sure what you mean there, unless you meant it as a comment to posters in general.

    I do however remember reading that pilots had to go through the machines and pat-downs like everybody else. If the news media screwed that up, that's ****ty journalism on their part. It brings to light the whole "who is telling the truth anymore" problem in news. Anyway, thank you for clearing that up for me
    Sorry, it was a preemptive general comment so someone didn't link to an untrue story.
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' "
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Gerard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emshighway View Post
    Which video?
    The one you posted from Facebook.

  5. #65
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    That video is on the front page of our site now: http://nycaviation.com/2010/11/video...ew-commercial/

  6. #66
    Senior Member emshighway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerard View Post
    The one you posted from Facebook.
    It's working on my FB page, I took the video right after it aired. This one is much better.
    Last edited by emshighway; 11-21-2010 at 01:16 PM.
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' "
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  7. #67
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    As Chairman of a Frequent Flyer Advocacy Group, I have just made a blog post regarding the new "enhancements". You can read it below-the title is "Find Another Way".

    Having followed the controversy surrounding the TSA's new "enhanced" screening procedures, and the very vocal public response to them, we think it is apparent that the message being sent to the TSA from most Americans, the flying public, and members of Congress to the TSA is definitely "Find Another Way"....and FFOCUS agrees completely!

    In taking another look at the new policies and the incidents to which they are a response, I have made some interesting observations:

    The shoe bomber who tried to ignite his shoe in flight boarded his flight in Paris, NOT in the United States.

    The so-called underwear bomber boarded his flight in Amsterdam, NOT in the United States, after connecting from somewhere in the middle east.

    Note - neither of these attempts originated here - meaning that just maybe the planners of these attacks realized that American security was already good and would likely detect such devices. So WHY are we being subjected to these "enhancements"?

    This would be a great time to examine the methods used by Israeli security teams screening passengers in Israel. They rely more on "soft" methods such as behavioral observation and interviewing all passengers during the check in and screening process. We have heard from more than once source that such attackers would likely have been detected if such screening were permitted. Note they are not referring to racial profiling of any type, but BEHAVIORAL observations. There is certainly a difference.

    The recent agreement to exempt airline pilots from such screening can be interpreted a number of ways...and not all good for the TSA. Does it open a possible door for a potential attacker? What other safeguards would replace the "enhanced" screening? Why couldn't these methods be adapted for the general public? At the least, perhaps this concession by the TSA gives reason to believe their new policies are not as well thought out as they claim, and could give some support to a number of lawsuits by regular travelers. Who knows?

    With regard to the body scanners or Nude-O-Scopes as they are called by some, where is the ACTUAL test evidence of the radiation exposure to passengers? Such testing should be conducted by a third party, NOT the government, and should be released forthwith...but health hazard or not, we have already seen abuses of this technology, such as images being retained and saved.

    And what is the truth behind Michael Chertoff's involvement with the company who sold the scanners to the TSA? Is this a backroom sweetheart deal or what? If so it should be investigated thoroughly.

    At the worst, these new "enhanced" screening measures do not appear to make us safer, and the TSA's argument that they do is not fully proven, but they do cause further disruption of air commerce, meaning at the end of the day it is a victory of sorts for the enemy. It is time for the TSA to rethink these procedures, work on viable alternatives which do not compromise our safety or security, and do the right thing while keeping us safe. And Congress should in fact look into this more closely and mandate change if necessary.

    We are not sure what will come out of the protest or National Opt Out event scheduled for this Wednesday, but it is sure to direct attention at the issue...

    Time to Find Another Way!
    It's the fares, stupid

  8. #68
    Senior Member emshighway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art at ISP View Post
    In taking another look at the new policies and the incidents to which they are a response, I have made some interesting observations:
    I will try to give you my personal, unofficial comments as someone with knowledge of the situation. Some will be just the answers without personal opinion. Others will have my personal opinion. Just because I say something doesn't mean I absolutely agree with it.

    The shoe bomber who tried to ignite his shoe in flight boarded his flight in Paris, NOT in the United States.
    The so-called underwear bomber boarded his flight in Amsterdam, NOT in the United States, after connecting from somewhere in the middle east.

    Note - neither of these attempts originated here - meaning that just maybe the planners of these attacks realized that American security was already good and would likely detect such devices. So WHY are we being subjected to these "enhancements"?
    True these incidents happen over seas but there is the Intel and possibility of it happening here thus the enhancements.

    This would be a great time to examine the methods used by Israeli security teams screening passengers in Israel. They rely more on "soft" methods such as behavioral observation and interviewing all passengers during the check in and screening process. We have heard from more than once source that such attackers would likely have been detected if such screening were permitted. Note they are not referring to racial profiling of any type, but BEHAVIORAL observations. There is certainly a difference.
    The Israeli methods are done on a much smaller scale than in the US. There are only a few commercial airports as opposed to the 430 in the US. It can be easily controlled in Israel and the airports were designed for these measures. In the US checkpoints have been shoehorned into archways, hallway and basically anywhere they could be stuck.

    I think the Israeli methods should be deployed and some have but it won't go without even more backlash.

    The recent agreement to exempt airline pilots from such screening can be interpreted a number of ways...and not all good for the TSA. Does it open a possible door for a potential attacker? What other safeguards would replace the "enhanced" screening? Why couldn't these methods be adapted for the general public? At the least, perhaps this concession by the TSA gives reason to believe their new policies are not as well thought out as they claim, and could give some support to a number of lawsuits by regular travelers. Who knows?.
    You do know that the only thing that will change (for now) is that pilots are exempt from the AIT. They were already exempt since they are allowed to keep their shoes on as long as they don't alarm. They will still be going through the WTMD and if they alarm a pat down will be performed. The pilot who refused in Tennessee was not flying the plane but was a passenger and as such was subject to the screening of every other passenger. Anyone who passes through the checkpoint is screened. Perhaps the method for flight crews should be to check in at their operations area and go to the plane through an operational door. Some of the problems are the airlines operational areas can only be gotten to by going through the checkpoint. How can you just let a person who has an airline uniform on just walk passed a checkpoint? It does open the door for a potential attacker to just get a uniform.

    With regard to the body scanners or Nude-O-Scopes as they are called by some, where is the ACTUAL test evidence of the radiation exposure to passengers? Such testing should be conducted by a third party, NOT the government, and should be released forthwith...but health hazard or not, we have already seen abuses of this technology, such as images being retained and saved.
    The backscatter has been in testing for at least seven years that I know. I first saw it in the labs in 2003. I see the maintenance contractors field radiation test but I do agree if it will aid to relieve concerns they should release independent studies. The only place images can be retained are the machines in the lab. None of the field machines have this capabilities and no one in the field can change the settings.

    And what is the truth behind Michael Chertoff's involvement with the company who sold the scanners to the TSA? Is this a backroom sweetheart deal or what? If so it should be investigated thoroughly.
    Agreed, it should be investigated.

    At the worst, these new "enhanced" screening measures do not appear to make us safer, and the TSA's argument that they do is not fully proven, but they do cause further disruption of air commerce, meaning at the end of the day it is a victory of sorts for the enemy. It is time for the TSA to rethink these procedures, work on viable alternatives which do not compromise our safety or security, and do the right thing while keeping us safe. And Congress should in fact look into this more closely and mandate change if necessary.
    The comment of if the pat downs make you safer not is an opinion. The threat has moved away from the effectiveness of a 1970 WTMD technology and unfortunately the only methods right now are a body scan and or physical search. There have been some of us pushing for the increased study of the Thermal Body Scanners. They do not emit energy toward the passenger, they do not "see through" clothing so while they perform similar functions of the AIT they do not have the issues. Unfortunately they are not to the point of being certified yet.

    Methods are constantly being looked at by the TSA and adjusted for the threat. For some this looks like inconsistency. Being able to adjust to the threat is not inconsistency. Congress has mandated procedures the TSA uses but they also mandate the limit of 43000 TSOs while adding more responsibilities (Ticket Document Checking, Behavioral Detection Officers and MTA screening) while not increasing the workforce to properly staff the checkpoints. When you see only a few lanes open it isn't because we don't want to open them up, we just don't have the personnel.

    We are not sure what will come out of the protest or National Opt Out event scheduled for this Wednesday, but it is sure to direct attention at the issue...
    Honestly I think it will just cause more pain to fellow passengers. This is a protest at the front lines. The front lines do not make the policies, they just do their jobs.

    Time to Find Another Way!
    It is always time to find better ways.
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' "
    Ronald Reagan

  9. #69
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    Art:
    Right on. TSA MUST find another way. I worked today & just happen to witness one of these things & it's beyond disgusting. I had to leave before I saw any more.

    Some one from the local TSA told me they are worried about opt out day. And while I know this is a minority, I know people who plan on going through at least twice Wed to tie them up. They are either going to set off the alarm "by accident" of course or "forget" something in their car.
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  10. #70
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    EMSHighway,

    Thank you for your thoughtful response. While you do give a good counterpoint, there are some issues on which we will agree to disagree. In any case, I do appreciate your point of view, and I do thank you for respecting mine and those other reasonable objections to the new procedures.

    Thanks for what you do - but we maintain things need to change.
    It's the fares, stupid

  11. #71
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    "Find Another Way"....
    Propaganda statement. How do you propose we screen pax then? No matter how good you profile or interview (which is impossible due to # of pax that travel) Scanners are our best last line of defense. Until someone can invent something that detects explosives in people without being evasive.

    If the FF of the world want us to go back to the metal detectors and prayer fine but somewhere down the line a plane will come down and people will die and then people are going to wonder how a terrorist got on with explosives and then we can tell them we didn't want somebody to see our genitals.
    Last edited by NIKV69; 11-21-2010 at 08:57 PM.
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  12. #72
    Senior Member emshighway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art at ISP View Post
    EMSHighway,

    Thank you for your thoughtful response. While you do give a good counterpoint, there are some issues on which we will agree to disagree. In any case, I do appreciate your point of view, and I do thank you for respecting mine and those other reasonable objections to the new procedures.

    Thanks for what you do - but we maintain things need to change.
    I don't mind having intelligent conversations and respect points of views that don't degrade to name calling or blaming the line personnel (if it's not their fault).

    Art I do have some bad news for ISP... They are coming... Can't say when but they will be there.
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' "
    Ronald Reagan

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by emshighway View Post
    I don't mind having intelligent conversations and respect points of views that don't degrade to name calling or blaming the line personnel (if it's not their fault).

    Art I do have some bad news for ISP... They are coming... Can't say when but they will be there.
    Yeah I know, it's inevitable until something changes...and there's no guaranty anything will.
    It's the fares, stupid

  14. #74
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    The lead story on NBC nightly news was the new gropes at the airports & how we are fed up with them. Pissy is running scared & said they might change. Can't remember exact wording, but he said things are evolving. Even Mrs Clinton said she wouldn't want to go through this. Again I also took away from it that he is very much worried about Nat. opt out day.
    Train as if your life depends on it. Because some day it may.
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  15. #75
    Moderator mirrodie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIKV69 View Post
    You are all missing the point here....Walk through the scanners and stop whining. Nobody is going to post a picture of your xrayed body on youtube. Jeez.
    Nick, is it possible you may also be missing a point? Who cares about the pics, its the safety of the tech I question.

    Quote Originally Posted by emshighway View Post
    God, I don't think I would ever agree with Bill O'Reilly. .. It has been proven you can't look for the person that looks like a terrorist because there isn't a cookie cutter description.
    True, Tim McVeigh is the everyday example. AS for O"reilly, I can't say I usually agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by emshighway View Post
    I have the data, I get the data, I read the data. If I didn't think it was safe I wouldn't be going through it myself.

    I would rather see the Thermal scanners being used and hopefully down the line they will. It will get rid of the radiation and privacy problem. They are just not there yet.
    I appreciate your badge of safely but I remain skeptical. Art brought up some valid points that I suspected as well.

    I'm just glad that I got some great days experiences flying before 9-11. Even had some great ones after 9-11. But lately, it just gets worse and worse.
    And I, I took the path less traveled by
    and that has made all the difference......yet...
    I have a feeling a handle of people are going to be very interested in what I post in the near future.

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