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Thread: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

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    Senior Member AirtrafficController's Avatar
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    "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    The FAA could soon implement a changeover from "position and hold" to "line up and wait," to conform with international phraseology standards, NBAA said this week. If approved later this month, the new terminology could be implemented as soon as this June. It's long overdue, according to NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman. She said the NTSB issued six recommendations in July 2000, asking the FAA to change various ATC procedures to reduce the risks of runway operations. "In response, we were recently advised that the FAA soon plans to adopt a single change: the use of "line up and wait" instead of "position and hold" to instruct pilots to enter a runway and wait for takeoff clearance," Hersman said at a runway safety summit in Washington last month. "We needed to wait nine years for that?" Bob Lamond, of NBAA, told AVweb on Tuesday he doesn't expect too much distress over the change. "Folks are going to stumble over it at first, but we'll get used to it," he said. "It's been talked about for years, so it's really a non-issue for us."

    However, implementation will require an "extensive awareness campaign" to ensure that pilots and controllers are informed, NBAA said. FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, speaking at the safety summit last month, said the FAA has done a lot to address runway safety concerns. "The numbers prove we've made a dramatic improvement," he said, nothing that in the past year there were just 12 incursions out of more than 50 million operations, and only two of those involved commercial carriers. "We've revamped our on-line courses. We've produced public service spots. And we mailed a half-million runway safety DVDs and brochures to pilots," said Babbitt. "It's been a tremendous joint effort across all parts of the FAA and the aviation industry. It worked." He added, however, that there is still work to be done in the GA community. "We can make every protection possible, but the human in the loop is the challenge of the future," he said. Click here for the full text of Babbitt's talk.

    http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Po ... 830-1.html
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    Senior Member hiss srq's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    This makes sense to me. Position and hold could possibly be confusing if multiple runways are being used for departure and arrivals. Line up and wait is a bit more descriptive and it has been used overseas for some time. :borat:
    Southwest Airlines-"Once it pop's it's time to stop" Southwest Airlines-"Our Shamu's are almost real" Southwest Airlines -"We blow our top real easy" Southwest Airlines- "You can't top us..... really"

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    Senior Member MarkLawrence's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    That will put a halt to the usual Christmas festivities when the controllers will say...Position and Ho-Ho-Hold...I've always enjoyed hearing that on the JFK streams particularly....although..a controller at FLL did that last season.
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by hiss srq
    This makes sense to me. Position and hold could possibly be confusing if multiple runways are being used for departure and arrivals. Line up and wait is a bit more descriptive and it has been used overseas for some time. :borat:
    How could this cause confusion? Its rather pointless to me, you still have to say the runway in use. Position and hold runway 22R or Line up and wait runway 22R. Position and hold flows better when you have to say it 40 times an hour. We have the safest air traffic system in the world so lets change to the way they do it overseas. Great idea

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    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    We have the safest int he world? I didn't know that. Good...I guess we won't need to waste all that money upgrading the airways! ;) (kidding)

    If it's for international conformity, I'm ok with it. Otherwise, I see no problem with the current phrase.
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    Senior Member hiss srq's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    Like Phil said, overseas it is the norm. We are abnormal in the use of that phrase. So by doing it we make it just that much safer. Particularly at airports like say JFK, ORD or your home turn EWR where there are many forign pilots in and out. It is not to knock our system. It would just bring us in line with everyone else which means safer operation which is afterall I think what all of us in aviation aim for. That is all.
    Southwest Airlines-"Once it pop's it's time to stop" Southwest Airlines-"Our Shamu's are almost real" Southwest Airlines -"We blow our top real easy" Southwest Airlines- "You can't top us..... really"

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    Senior Member cancidas's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    i'm with bill on this one, position and hold rolls off your tongue easier.
    it is mathematically impossible for either hummingbirds, or helicopters to fly. fortunately, neither are aware of this.

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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkLawrence
    That will put a halt to the usual Christmas festivities when the controllers will say...Position and Ho-Ho-Hold...I've always enjoyed hearing that on the JFK streams particularly....although..a controller at FLL did that last season.
    Although, I can hear the read backs coming "roger ... hurry up and wait"

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    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    Line up and wait? Wait for what? Your burger? I agree with Bill. If anything maybe change it to "taxi into position and hold" but line up and wait sounds silly.
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    If we are conforming to international standards, I wonder if we will see a change to flight levels when referring to altitudes below 18,000? In Europe and elsewhere, an example clearance would read "descend and maintain (flight) level 06" referring to 6000.
    Cessna 6MA Kennedy tower, Rwy 31L, CLEAERD TO LAND!

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    Senior Member cancidas's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by ISP Pilot
    If we are conforming to international standards, I wonder if we will see a change to flight levels when referring to altitudes below 18,000? In Europe and elsewhere, an example clearance would read "descend and maintain (flight) level 06" referring to 6000.
    i really hope not! i can understand that our lingo may be complicated for international pilots, but the change is going to be more annoying to local pilots!
    it is mathematically impossible for either hummingbirds, or helicopters to fly. fortunately, neither are aware of this.

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    Senior Member hiss srq's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    It might be annoying but it would lead to overall conformity. Lest we remember we are not the center of the universe but quite to oposite. So in that sense it may be annoying to us but it will long run overall be safer and much more logical. I am just taking an objective view.
    Southwest Airlines-"Once it pop's it's time to stop" Southwest Airlines-"Our Shamu's are almost real" Southwest Airlines -"We blow our top real easy" Southwest Airlines- "You can't top us..... really"

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    Senior Member Mateo's Avatar
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    Re: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

    Quote Originally Posted by ISP Pilot
    If we are conforming to international standards, I wonder if we will see a change to flight levels when referring to altitudes below 18,000? In Europe and elsewhere, an example clearance would read "descend and maintain (flight) level 06" referring to 6000.
    Transition altitudes vary by country. In the US, it happens to be 18000. In other countries, it's often lower. Above the transition altitude, you use flight levels (since it's not a pressure-based altitude measurement). Below the transition, you use altitudes.

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