The truth about airplane security measures

[Tom_Turner]

Here's an insightful article from my point of view...

By Christopher Hitchens
Slate - Monday, Dec. 28, 2009


Just a little snippet below.. link to article here.. http://www.slate.com/id/2239935/

Why do we fail to detect or defeat the guilty, and why do we do so well at collective punishment of the innocent? The answer to the first question is: Because we can't—or won't. The answer to the second question is: Because we can. The fault here is not just with our endlessly incompetent security services, who give the benefit of the doubt to people who should have been arrested long ago or at least had their visas and travel rights revoked. It is also with a public opinion that sheepishly bleats to be made to "feel safe." The demand to satisfy that sad illusion can be met with relative ease if you pay enough people to stand around and stare significantly at the citizens' toothpaste. My impression as a frequent traveler is that intelligent Americans fail to protest at this inanity in case it is they who attract attention and end up on a no-fly list instead. Perfect.

[emshighway]

Here's an insightful article from my point of view...

By Christopher Hitchens
Slate - Monday, Dec. 28, 2009


Just a little snippet below.. link to article here.. http://www.slate.com/id/2239935/

Why do we fail to detect or defeat the guilty, and why do we do so well at collective punishment of the innocent? The answer to the first question is: Because we can't—or won't. The answer to the second question is: Because we can. The fault here is not just with our endlessly incompetent security services, who give the benefit of the doubt to people who should have been arrested long ago or at least had their visas and travel rights revoked. It is also with a public opinion that sheepishly bleats to be made to "feel safe." The demand to satisfy that sad illusion can be met with relative ease if you pay enough people to stand around and stare significantly at the citizens' toothpaste. My impression as a frequent traveler is that intelligent Americans fail to protest at this inanity in case it is they who attract attention and end up on a no-fly list instead. Perfect.

Isn't there a website for whining and crying about this??? Oh, yea, flyertalk.com

I just don't have the time to BS with you on this. I'm trying to keep your ass safe.

[Tom_Turner]

Hi Emshighway. I've never been to Flyertalk; it'd probably bore me to tears.

I certainly don't have anything against TSA per se...

I don't fly very often, so its not a convenience issue for me so much as a security one for whoever *is* flying and for our country. More concerned with the issues raised as it pertained to decision making in strategy than with rank and file doing their best at their assignments.

It was the head of DHS that one day basically stated that everything is fine, ("The system worked,") but the next the commander in chief says.. "A systemic failure has occurred and I consider that totally unacceptable. There was a mix of human and systemic failure that contributed to this catastrophic breach of security".

If either one (or both) of the above statements were made essentially for political purposes (which I think is quite possible), people really ought to start thinking for themselves and questioning the approach. We're probably all going to have a stake in these issues unfortunately if we don't already.

Tom

[emshighway]

Secretary Napolitano was referring to the notification and operations aspect of the incident. She clarified that. I take it that the President was referring to the non US security system and the "watch list" matter.

Please understand that there are over a million people on watch lists. The particular list this Nigerian was on is the least in the order of seriousness. Yes his father did the notification but at the time there was no additional information to elevate him on lists. The tremendous amount of work that has to be done to follow up on these "tips" is sufficating. I believe the President was also referring to communications between agencies and countries.

[T-Bird76]

Secretary Napolitano was referring to the notification and operations aspect of the incident. She clarified that. I take it that the President was referring to the non US security system and the "watch list" matter.

Eh...I'm not sure clarified is the correct word to use...more like she opened her mouth and said the wrong thing is a more accurate statement.

"The system worked"

and then...

"Our system did not work in this instance"

So what part worked and what part didn't? From my perspective the system is one structure made up of sub structures that need to work together. When one fails to operate the entire system fails.

What I'm applauded at is if its true he was allowed to board a U.S bound plane without a passport then not only did out system fail but the global security network failed. Why on Earth is someone allowed transport into the U.S without a Passport? Was the thinking that they didn't want to deal with him so they would let U.S Customs deal with this guy in Detroit?

[PhilDernerJr]

Isn't there a website for whining and crying about this??? Oh, yea, flyertalk.com

I just don't have the time to BS with you on this. I'm trying to keep your ass safe.

I would just like to say that I think that most people do not realize how many terror attacks have been thwarted be many government agencies that work hard to do their jobs.

However, people are allowed to be upset and question such authority when issues arise. People are allowed to have opinions.

There's no need to take personal offense to government agency criticism. Regardless of your employer, no one asked you to "BS" with anyone about it. These people are allowed to vent and complain, and you're welcome to engage in friendly conversation to open eyes and enlighten people, as I have seen you do, without belittling them to "crying" or "whining". Having read FlyerTalk, you and I can certainly say that the above post by Tom doesn't come close to the level of complaining that occurs on that site (and that's no offense to the team at FlyterTalk).

This is most certainly the time for people to question the actions of the TSA and DHS. Our lives depend on it.

Otherwise, thank you for your service.

[NIKV69]

Please understand that there are over a million people on watch lists. The particular list this Nigerian was on is the least in the order of seriousness. Yes his father did the notification but at the time there was no additional information to elevate him on lists. The tremendous amount of work that has to be done to follow up on these "tips" is sufficating. I believe the President was also referring to communications between agencies and countries.

His own father told our agency he was a danger. Your telling me someone couldn't keep an eye on his name and make sure he didn't fly or if he did check in for a flight to the US to give him the screening necessary to find that substance. If this is the case we are all screwed. It's downright scary. I love how the people are against the intrusion of privacy, don't want wiretapping etc think we can be safe. They are kidding themselves. Then again they are man made disasters anyway. :?

[Tom_Turner]

Its an emotional issue for sure; but I am fine personally with EMShighway... :borat:
I realized afterwards that the excerpted paragraph I posted was really the only one that took an indirect shot at TSA employees doing their jobs... even though I don't think that was the point of it.. but the article itself is interesting I thought...

Personally I feel this Nigerian should be tortured and then swiftly executed and a couple of people should probably lose their jobs (except the wrong employee/s would probably take a fall), but I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

In general I am sympathetic to EMS's overall point about the resources not being there to process much of the data - I just take that as a given. There is just no other way it would be different.

I am just disturbed because I would think a father (foreign national), that used to head up a bank, reporting his own son to US Authorities as a possible jihadi maniac is a pretty darn good "tip" to be run down. Maybe to the point such youth go straight to the No Fly list. And also, all the dismay that this terrorist was practically aristocracy - as if Bin Laden came out of a refugee camp.

I am sure TSA will do its best to meet the technological challenges, but our overall approach to the enemy can't be examined often enough.

Tom

[emshighway]

Isn't there a website for whining and crying about this??? Oh, yea, flyertalk.com

I just don't have the time to BS with you on this. I'm trying to keep your ass safe.

I would just like to say that I think that most people do not realize how many terror attacks have been thwarted be many government agencies that work hard to do their jobs.

However, people are allowed to be upset and question such authority when issues arise. People are allowed to have opinions.

There's no need to take personal offense to government agency criticism. Regardless of your employer, no one asked you to "BS" with anyone about it. These people are allowed to vent and complain, and you're welcome to engage in friendly conversation to open eyes and enlighten people, as I have seen you do, without belittling them to "crying" or "whining". Having read FlyerTalk, you and I can certainly say that the above post by Tom doesn't come close to the level of complaining that occurs on that site (and that's no offense to the team at FlyterTalk).

This is most certainly the time for people to question the actions of the TSA and DHS. Our lives depend on it.

Otherwise, thank you for your service.

OK I'm out then. Persons use terms like harASSment and others and you allow them but a post that stated a lot of information gets deleted. I guess the moderation here is getting like flyertalk, only allowed if you your opinion matches that of the moderators.

Have a Happy New Year.

[PhilDernerJr]

If you have an issue with someone's posts, all you have to do is flag it or email me and I'll moderate. Easy as that. It's not posible for me to read the hundreds of posts on here every day, so your help is required. You tell me, I moderate if that's the case.

[mirrodie]

Isn't there a website for whining and crying about this??? Oh, yea, flyertalk.com

OK I'm out then. Persons use terms like harASSment and others and you allow them but a post that stated a lot of information gets deleted.

Have a Happy New Year.

Last night, I finally read the article that Tom pointed to. It was an interesting read. Actually, what was more interesting was the comments that followed the article. One of them pointed to procedures in Venezuela. The questions were a bit weird but it was secure.

I'd like to share some things on things said above. EMS, you are very quick to blame the moderation here.
Yet, in the VERY first post, you flamebait an entire class/website of people simple because they are travelers, basically demoting them to whining crybabies. Yet its those frequent travelers and those "lovely" terrorists that keep your industry busy and employed. So perhaps you could tone down the passenger bashing? Quite frankly, I can DEFINITELY see how people BASH the TSA, but how does it make it right that you BASH passengers and bad mouth them? In other words, passenger bashin is not the answer to TSA bashing.

Personally, I think you are one of the few in your industry that DO give a damn and take the time to show it here, so for that, I am thankful.

I used to bash myself I'm getting wise in my old age.

terms like harASSment and others and you allow them but a post that stated a lot of information gets deleted.

I missed that so I assume it was deleted. Would you care to share the info?

His own father told our agency he was a danger. Your telling me someone couldn't keep an eye on his name and make sure he didn't fly or if he did check in for a flight to the US to give him the screening necessary to find that substance. If this is the case we are all screwed. It's downright scary. I love how the people are against the intrusion of privacy, don't want wiretapping etc think we can be safe.

totally agree. I can't see why this person was not regarded as a big threat once his dad called in his name.


Heck, we need better security. I am all for racial profiling. Look, I'm brown and I don't care at all. Its ridiculous. Just get it done.
Of course, racial profiling, while I am all for it, does present its own issues, since the Unabomber, Dave Koresh adn Tim McVeigh were all white.....

[Mateo]

I am just disturbed because I would think a father (foreign national), that used to head up a bank, reporting his own son to US Authorities as a possible jihadi maniac is a pretty darn good "tip" to be run down. Maybe to the point such youth go straight to the No Fly list.

I work in a field that could be broadly construed as national security, and even though my job is not high-level enough to deal directly with watch lists, my bosses do, and so I'm very familiar with these types of procedures. The poison pen letter or notification or what have you is almost worthless, and the fact that it comes from the kid's father actually makes it somewhat less credible. 95% of the poison pen letters my office gets arise out of personal vendettas, and we've been burned more times than I can count by actually following up on something and unintentionally winding up in the middle of a family dispute or something equally banal and irrelevant, and my office is a medium-profile office in a very low-risk environment. I would imagine a high-profile, high-risk office like the Consulate General in Lagos receives these sort of poison pen letters all the time, and is disinclined to waste the resources to investigate any of them without something very specific and very actionable.

[USAF Pilot 07]

Let's be honest with ourselves here...

The truth about "airplane security" is that if someone is so determined to bring something onto an aircraft, they will find a way to do so. Barring having to undergo a full body cavity search, fly naked, having zero contact with outside products once past security (i.e. no food, water), making airport employees (anybody from ramp workers, gate agents, pilots and FAs) undergo the same security measures, and then finding a way to strictly enforce all of this, there's really no way to have security tight enough to prevent someone from bringing something harmful on board an aircraft. If we ever find ourselves in a situation like this, the terrorists have already won...

My take on airport security is that it exists primarily as a deterrent to "stupid" terrorists who aren't sophisticated enough, who don't have the needed "backing" from whatever terrorist group they are from, and with one "slipup" are bound to make a mistake and get caught. It's obviously not a perfect system (as was so aptly demonstrated by this incident), and it has to become more stringent and thorough.

I think the solution is profiling. Now before you go all ACLU crazy on me, I'm not necessarily talking about racial profiling. There needs to be more human interaction between passengers and employees and security personnel before boarding an aircraft. As it stands now, I can book a flight, check-in for said flight online, print my boarding pass at home and never have to speak one word to anyone in between arriving at the airport and boarding the flight. The only "personal" interaction I have to have is with a TSA person prior to the metal detectors, who doesn't ask questions, but rather just looks at my boarding pass and ID and makes sure the names match.

I think El Al does it right in that not only do they know who's flying way before you ever get on an aircraft, but I don't think they have all this online check-in, or self-service kiosk stuff. You talk with a representative who asks questions (so where are you going?, what are you doing there? how long are you staying? etc...). From this, they profile based on behavior, attitude and the situation. Human instinct is sometimes way underrated, and it may be a ticket agent (not a multi-million dollar x-ray machine) who says "hmm something doesn't add up with this guy" who may be able to stop one of these "stupid" terrorists.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on the issue...