Colgan Blames Faulty Plane, Pilots for Buffalo Crash

[USAF Pilot 07]

ch2tdriver:

Are crews trained extensively and regularly refreshed in the sim on not just wing but also tail stalls? Wouldn't a tail stall cause more of a nose-down attitude?

I just watched the NTSB "re-enactment" of the situation, I have some questions that maybe you can answer...

I'm assuming the Q doesn't have auto-throttles...

What are general speeds of the Q clean/dirty? What kind of stood out first was that at 0 flaps the aircraft was around 170 knots (getting down to 167), but at 5 flaps it seemed to stabilize around 185 knots (getting up to 188). Not that it's unsafe, maybe the airspeed just got away from the crew a little...

Also, haven't listened to the CVR for this in a while but would proper procedure be to increase bug speed in icing conditions? Did the crew talk about this at all? Wouldn't the Q's flight manual recommend the autopilot be off during icing encounters especially during approach and landing?

What struck me the most was the throttle position through all of this. The throttles are in idle the entire time until the stick shaker is encountered. When the capt calls for gear down airspeed is 174 knots. 20 seconds later, with the throttles still in idle airspeed is 130 knots with 10 degrees nose up. That seems like a pretty dramatic airspeed loss without at least being mentioned by anyone. I suspect it fell out of both pilots' crosscheck.
Those 20 seconds look exactly like the setup to practice a landing attitude stall recovery.

I don't know how the onset of a tail stall would look like, but I'm curious to see the similarities/difference. I want to say I may have practiced a tail stall once in the T-1 (BE400) sim, but I really can't remember. It definitely wasn't made a high priority issue. We used bleed air and electric heating elements for anti-ice in the T-1 though.

Ice and airplanes generally don't mix. If tail stalls are more prevalent in smaller, turboprop aircraft, it sounds like it could be a serious problem, especially with all these puddle-jumper planes flying into areas that may not deal with a lot of air traffic (lack of PIREPs) and where weather reports may not always be very reliable...

[hiss srq]

The Q does not have an autothrottle system built into the package. An increase in speed is always smart in icing and yes at most carriers handflying is the practice instructed upon in icing conditions. It give you a better control feel. Very good point!

[ch2tdriver]

USAF pilot 07

You are a lot more current than me as its been a while since I did any line flying. All my flying nowadays is as a CFI.
Like I said I only flew the DHC-6 so can't comment on the DHC-8 or Q for that matter. I remember that on the oral portion of a line check, the check airman basically covered icing proceedures, questions like "Would you climb or descend when encountered? Why would you do one or the other?" and discussion of when to deploy the boots as "Bridging" was the big topic back then. (Nowadays the accepted procedure is "blow the boots at the first sign of accumulation and don't worry its not an issue" thought)

Once the ATR-42 accident occured we suddenly received dedicated ground training as a group in icing proceedures and techniques. This is where I first really learned about tail icing and tail stalls and what are the indications. I remember the discussions where if the flaps are deployed and a buffett is encountered, to immediately retract them. A tail stall will cause the nose to pitch down. I saved all the material from those days.

While the Colgan case may not have been a tail stall, I think its possible that the crew may have been in the mindset that it was and began to act accordingly. It may have been emphasized in their training? IDK. Their actions regarding pull up, flap retraction and the power settings seem to indicate this. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the crew may have been properly trained, but misinterpreted events and applied the wrong training.

Pete

[USAF Pilot 07]

Thanks for the reply! Tail icing sounds like a bitch. Although it's pretty apparent they let their airspeed and throttles fall out of their crosscheck in this situation, it's very possible in the short amount of time they had to react to the situation they thought they were in a tail-stall (although it sounds like the Copilot was out to lunch and had no idea what was going on). We'll never know but, maybe the pilot had just had a refresher, just read about tailstalls or whatnot and it was fresh in his head. I'm a little surprised they never verbalized anything, although in that short of a situation I'm sure they had more than their hands full.