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Thread: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

  1. #1
    Moderator Matt Molnar's Avatar
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    Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    NTSB is investigating why Wednesday's Northwest Flight 188, flying from San Diego to Minneapolis, flew over MSP at 37,000 feet and continued another 150 miles before regaining radio contact and turning around.
    NTSB Advisory
    National Transportation Safety Board
    Washington, DC 20594
    October 22, 2009

    NTSB INVESTIGATING FLIGHT THAT OVERFLEW INTENDED MINNEAPOLIS AIRPORT

    The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating an incident where an Airbus A320 overflew the Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport (MSP).

    On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, at 5:56 pm mountain daylight time, an Airbus A320, N03274, operating as Northwest Airlines (NWA) flight 188, became a NORDO (no radio communications) flight at 37,000 feet. The flight was operating as a Part 121 flight from San Diego International Airport, San Diego, California (SAN) to MSP with 147 passengers and unknown number of crew.

    At 7:58 pm central daylight time (CDT), the aircraft flew over the destination airport and continued northeast for approximately 150 miles. The MSP center controller reestablished communications with the crew at 8:14 pm and reportedly stated that the crew had become distracted and had overflown MSP, and requested to return to MSP.

    According to the Federal Administration (FAA) the crew was interviewed by the FBI and airport police. The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness. The Safety Board is scheduling an interview with the crew.

    The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder (FDR) have been secured and are being sent to the NTSB laboratory in Washington, DC.

    David Lawrence, the Investigator-in-Charge, is leading the team of 3 in investigating the incident.

    Parties to the investigation are the FAA and Northwest Airlines.

    -30-

    NTSB Media Contact: Keith Holloway
    [email protected]
    (202) 314-6100
    The CVR would seemingly answer exactly what happened pretty quickly. This afternoon WSJ reports the pilots may have fallen asleep.
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

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    Senior Member hiss srq's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Man, Delta pilots are just fumblin' and bumblin' all over the hub network arent they? Sounds like someone forgot to put a hold into the computer prior to TOD or at least over MSP to make it look like he was not sleeping at least. More fuel to the fire about why the FAA needs to create approved guidlines for naps.
    Southwest Airlines-"Once it pop's it's time to stop" Southwest Airlines-"Our Shamu's are almost real" Southwest Airlines -"We blow our top real easy" Southwest Airlines- "You can't top us..... really"

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    Senior Member moose135's Avatar
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    NTSB Investigates NWA A320 Overflight of MSP Destination

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1256235 ... TopStories

    Airport Overshoot Prompts Pilot-Fatigue Probe
    OCTOBER 22, 2009, 4:47 P.M. ET
    By ANDY PASZTOR

    A Northwest Airlines flight approaching Minneapolis Wednesday night lost contact with controllers for more than an hour and overshot its destination by about 150 miles before circling back to land. Federal safety regulators are investigating the incident as a possible case of pilots nodding off, according to government and airline-industry officials familiar with the matter.

    Controllers at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport were able to re-establish contact with the Airbus A320, after a one hour and 18 minute lapse, before the plane, flight 188 en route from San Diego, landed safely and without injuries to the 147 passengers, according to a statement from the National Transportation Safety Board.

    The NTSB said controllers lost contact with the aircraft while it was cruising at 37,000 feet, but didn't say how far from the airport the plane was at the time.

    The NTSB said the pilots were interviewed after landing by Federal Bureau of Investigation agents and airport police. The pilots told law-enforcement officials they had been engaged in a "heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," according to the NTSB. The Federal Aviation Administration is also investigating the incident.

    Northwest is a unit of Delta Air Lines Inc.

    "The safety of our passengers and crew is our top priority," Delta said in a statement. "We are cooperating with the FAA and NTSB in their investigation as well as conducting our own internal investigation. The pilots have been relieved from active flying pending the completion of these investigations. The incident comes as the FAA is seeking to update and rewrite decades-old rules governing how long commercial pilots can fly and remain on duty during a given period.

    Wednesday night's incident is the second time in less than a week that a Delta cockpit crew was involved in a high-profile safety lapse. On Monday, a long-range Delta Boeing 767 en route from Brazil to Atlanta's Hartsfield International Airport landed on a taxiway, rather than the parallel runway. There were no injuries to any of the 182 passengers or 11 crew members.

    The safety board is investigating whether pilot fatigue was an important factor. The crew had flown all night and was landing in darkness. The approach lights for the runway weren't turned on, however the lights on the runway surface were illuminated, according to the safety board.

    Concerning the Minneapolis flight, it's not clear what the pilots' schedule was in the hours before it overshot the airport Wednesday night. But their work hours and sleep schedules in the preceding few days will be among the main issues examined by investigators.

    In the case of the Delta crew that landed on the taxiway in Atlanta, the safety board said Wednesday that a third pilot aboard the twin-engine Boeing 767 had fallen ill during the flight and "was relocated to the cabin" before landing. The board said there was 10-miles visibility when the big jet touched down on the taxiway.

    Earlier media reports indicated that the crew of the Boeing 767 had been temporarily removed from flying duties.
    I'm not sure what "airline policy" is so controversial that it results in an hour-long "heated discussion" that causes you to ignore radio calls and overfly your destination by 150 miles. It's probably a good thing for the flight crew that the CVR has a 30 minute loop...

    Quote Originally Posted by hiss srq
    More fuel to the fire about why the FAA needs to create approved guidlines for naps.
    On my KC-135 crew, the rule was "Last one awake has to wake up someone else".

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    Moderator USAF Pilot 07's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz

    Wonder if the aircraft CVR is still available. Sounds stupid of the pilots to claim they were in a heated debate about airline policy if the CVR is later pulled and it turns out they were sound asleep... Not good...

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    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    They were definitely sleeping.

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    Email me anytime at [email protected].

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    Senior Member SengaB's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Check out the flight path.




    Senga

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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Too bad it wasn't United. Channel 9 on that flight would be interesting...

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    Senior Member moose135's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Quote Originally Posted by USAF Pilot 07
    Wonder if the aircraft CVR is still available. Sounds stupid of the pilots to claim they were in a heated debate about airline policy if the CVR is later pulled and it turns out they were sound asleep... Not good...
    Per the FARs, the CVR only is required to store the prior 30 minutes of audio, so it's quite possible the portion that would show what happened was overwritten as the flight made its return to MSP.

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    Senior Member moose135's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Something else to consider here - it is reported that the crew has been questioned by the FBI and local law enforcement, and will, no doubt, face questioning from the FAA and/or the NTSB in short order. If it is found that they did fall asleep, and weren't involved in a "heated discussion" as they claim, not only will they lose their jobs, and quite possibly their pilot licenses, they could also face federal charges for providing false information in an investigation. That always looks good on a resume!

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    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Yea not these two pilots are basically toast. What a terrible situation. Still can't believe two guys wouldn't have enough rest to make a 4-6 hour flight without falling asleep.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

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    Moderator mirrodie's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Actually, they were indeed in a heated debate over this subject.

    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/2139789/
    And I, I took the path less traveled by
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    I find this so hard to believe on a number of levels--such as how such an automated aircraft can do this--if they had programmed the STAR properly, it would call for altitude changes, and send an alarm at some point--if they were sleeping it would be a DEEP sleep....

    I am still shaking my head in disbelief.
    It's the fares, stupid

  13. #13
    Moderator Matt Molnar's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Quote Originally Posted by mirrodie
    Actually, they were indeed in a heated debate over this subject.

    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forum ... n/2139789/
    Well I think they should be given a pass if that's the case.
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

  14. #14
    Moderator Matt Molnar's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    Apparently the CVR is only going to arrive at the NTSB in Washington today. Did they deliver it on horseback?
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

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    Senior Member cancidas's Avatar
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    Re: Northwest Flight Overshoots Destination by 150 Miles

    i still think they were kidnapped by aliens, enjoyed the experiments that were performed on them and flew the extra mileage to overwrite the CVR and FDR....



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