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Thread: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

  1. #16
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    *feeling pretty good to have privs* at this time...

  2. #17
    Senior Member Delta777LR's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by darlyn
    The guy claims any photography of airplanes is not allowed. WTF?? I think I'll call them again and explain why it is perfectly legal to shoot pictures from the numerous public areas surrounding the airfield (like the IKEA store).
    Ive been trough the same situations you have along time ago. Thats why I barely spot there. I got ejected from the food court in IKea back in 2004 as I was seeing taking pictures from there. Its just not worth to argue with the police or propery owners or so on, it just make things worse and yes these little things like that could affect us too. Just remember what Phil and all of us is telling you. Dont cause seens, or argue about taking pictures. Believe me we all wish we had the freedom of spotting where ever but it just doesnt work like that at all. Not one bit.
    Sergio has been a huge Delta Air Lines fan since 1992!!

    Sergio Cardona

    http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos....e=1&display=15

  3. #18
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    What WOULD be a good idea, is if we either wrote a letter, or some sort of formal message to the proper Newark Airport Authorities stating that
    we are a group of innocent (well most of us are) civilians that enjoy the hobby of plane spotting, and then we give them a little background on
    what exactly plane spotting is, and then from there we would ask for written permission for one certain day at a certain designated time for the approval
    by them to let us stand/sit in a certain section of the airport and let us do what we all do best, and we you know should be very sincere and all that jazz,
    and give them a list of the names and information of everybody before hand, and maybe just maybe probably on a weekend or even a day thats less hectic @
    newark they may approve of it, but like I explained we would have to be sincere, show them the NYC aviation website maybe, send them a group photo of everybody.. you know?
    JerseyFlyer isn't entirely crazy on this. I have done this successfully with 3 different airports, one of them a major one - and know that this is done at 2 major airports in the US (though I haven't done it myself at either). It seems however, that this won't exactly get you anywhere with EWR and that is something worth obviously considering. In my cases, I give names, phone numbers, license info, where I'll be, for how long, the whole 9 yards. However, I have never attached myself to a website or group - I always go as an individual or as a small group of people. And every time I have been able to locate the individual(s) who can make it happen. Sometimes it is airport ops/media relations, sometimes it is a port authority, sometimes it is the local pd - sometimes a coordination between all three. When I go, I take a confirmation email from the person/agency with contact information from the person who granted permission and/or someone who will be working at that time who can confirm it. Area's around airports are hard to judge who owns what, and hence the problems with multiple jurisdictions and agencies. Before anyone tries something like this ANYWHERE, you have to know where you want to go and WHO OWNS IT. When it's private commercial property, identify the owner and contact her/him. If its private property like an airport - call every possible agency involved and ask who you need to talk to, to get permission. If they aren't responsive - drop it, don't go there, and get over it.

    That being said, I have a hard time believing people on these boards haven't tried something like this with EWR. If the recommendation (as it has been so far) is to stay the f away, then take their advice and follow it.
    I've written spotting guides for almost a dozen airports and I can't tell you how important it is to follow the recommendations of the guides. Certain spots that might not be on guides that seem so obvious to you are equally as obvious to us veteran locals too. If it isn't on the guide - there's a reason for it. By going somewhere that isn't recognized as an acceptable location by the local veterans you could ruin years of hard work and good reputations.
    I have both seen myself and heard from others the serious repercussions that the mistake of one can have on the whole spotting community. Security can start coming down hard in previously accessible locations and those spots can even close - permanently. Nevermind the fact perhaps a location was left off because security there has a history of questioning, arrest, and confiscation: maybe it wasn't listed to protect you getting kicked out or worse.

  4. #19
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    the rules we've all agreed upon a long time ago
    Who is "we"? We are falling into the trap of thinking this site is the end all of the area's spotting. It isn't. Let us not forget that Gordon and others behavior changed the way we can shoot at the cargo area at JFK. Areas that were once accessible are not and that spot has been changed forever. Talking here will never change people's behavior in how they approach what they do. If someone feels the entitlement to shoot they will regardless. The Costco episode was another example where certain members here felt it was their right to shoot there simply because the fisherman were allowed to remain after spotters were kicked out and went as far to enter the store and engage the manager. I don't know what possesses Darlyn to do these things but nothing will change. I am just surprised he keeps posting about his suicidal missions. Got to admit it has given the forum some life over the last couple of months though.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  5. #20
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    I agree that this site isn't the be-all and end-all.

    I do find it disheartening when some people try to undo the efforts of others over the years by defying advice. Not that it's happening here, but through your examples, we've seen debates stem from various behavior, some warranted and some not.

    I like that we can see all of us be so passionate and driven about our hobby though.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  6. #21
    Senior Member moose135's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    Not to disclose too many details, but suffice to say PA was approached in an organized manner about spotting with little interest on their part. Nick, I don't think anything that any one individual did caused the situation at the cargo area - it was a private, employee lot, and it was always hit or miss with PAPD reaction, usually triggered by the security staff of the airline involved. I highly doubt they closed the parking lot to keep spotters from using it.

    No, NYCA isn't the "end all of the area's spotting" but it serves as a clearinghouse of information, and a way to educate spotters on the best ways to safely and legally practice our hobby.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Iberia A340-600's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    Nick, I feel it is completely unnecessary for you to single me out in your post.

  8. #23
    Senior Member NIKV69's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    Not to disclose too many details, but suffice to say PA was approached in an organized manner about spotting with little interest on their part. Nick
    Well someone I shoot with was taken on the ramp to shoot and he was told it was due to spotter actions that that area was scrutinized. You all enjoyed ganging up on Darlyn for his foolish actions in an employee lot yet it was quite similiar to our situation where some used discretion at the AI employee lot and some didn't.

    Nick, I feel it is completely unnecessary for you to single me out in your post.
    What was unnecessary was standing under the landing lights Gordon for it is a direct and accurate comparison to Darlyn's foolish behavior.
    'My idea of a good picture is one that's in focus and of a famous person doing something unfamous.' Andy Warhol

  9. #24
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by Iberia A340-600
    Nick, I feel it is completely unnecessary for you to single me out in your post.
    Nick does have a point about the photos that were taken at the cargo plaza by you and Matt, they were seen and questioned by certain officials. The point is there's pushing the limits of where people belong and don't belong without permission.

  10. #25
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    I certainly am not advocating antagonizing private property owners/managers or the police, and I don't think spotters should cause a scene or give anyone a reason to crack down on our hobby.

    However, our hobby is completely legal, and when you're on public property, you're allowed to take pictures of anything you can see, provided that it doesn't infringe on others' reasonable expectations of privacy.

    I don't see anything wrong with politely standing up for your Constitutional rights in dealing with police officers who are misinformed. I'm not saying start an argument, I'm not saying to get yourself arrested...but if you're not on airport property or private property, you're not breaking any laws by taking pictures of airplanes. Police have every right to ask you your name and what you're doing, but they can't legally order you to leave, to stop taking pictures, or to delete your pictures.

    Actually, they can't even force you to produce ID in New York State unless they are detaining you, which requires the police officer to be able to articulate "reasonable suspicion" that you're breaking the law. (and refusal to answer officers' questions or to produce ID cannot in itself be used as reasons for "reasonable suspicion", according to the courts.) I don't know if there's a stop-and-identify law in New Jersey, but New York's is only triggered upon police detention, like a Terry stop.

    Again, and I want to be clear here -- I'm not saying anyone should pick a fight or otherwise upset relations with the various police departments, but I see nothing wrong with standing up for your rights when challenged.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Iberia A340-600's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    [quote=T-Bird76]
    Quote Originally Posted by "Iberia A340-600":1bpaygj7
    Nick, I feel it is completely unnecessary for you to single me out in your post.
    Nick does have a point about the photos that were taken at the cargo plaza by you and Matt, they were seen and questioned by certain officials. The point is there's pushing the limits of where people belong and don't belong without permission.[/quote:1bpaygj7]

    Look, I chose to stand away from the landing lights. One of the few times I've actually stood there I happened to get photographed and that photograph was published.

    The fact is that hundreds, if not thousands of people, have been by those lights, a few to photograph, and many for just recreation. If the PA was truly concerned they would have fenced that area long ago, just as they have a cell phone lot to the north east of that area and other areas around the airport. Yes, they have put up concrete barriers blocking the ex-AI parking lot but they are clearly unconcerned about the lights as they have taken no action there.

    I'm withdrawing from this conversation for now by repeating what I said at the beginning. I avoid getting anywhere near the lights and just because I happened to be photographed does not mean that I am oblivious to the limits.

  12. #27
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    Side-topic posts dealing in detail in regards to Gordon will stay, but any posts after this will be considered thread hijacking, as that's not what we are here to discuss. I don't want any argument or debate as to that. If anyone has more to say, take it to PM please. The points pertaining to it were made, and we should move on, or back to the orig topic.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  13. #28
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vidiot
    I certainly am not advocating antagonizing private property owners/managers or the police, and I don't think spotters should cause a scene or give anyone a reason to crack down on our hobby.

    However, our hobby is completely legal, and when you're on public property, you're allowed to take pictures of anything you can see, provided that it doesn't infringe on others' reasonable expectations of privacy.

    I don't see anything wrong with politely standing up for your Constitutional rights in dealing with police officers who are misinformed. I'm not saying start an argument, I'm not saying to get yourself arrested...but if you're not on airport property or private property, you're not breaking any laws by taking pictures of airplanes. Police have every right to ask you your name and what you're doing, but they can't legally order you to leave, to stop taking pictures, or to delete your pictures.

    Actually, they can't even force you to produce ID in New York State unless they are detaining you, which requires the police officer to be able to articulate "reasonable suspicion" that you're breaking the law. (and refusal to answer officers' questions or to produce ID cannot in itself be used as reasons for "reasonable suspicion", according to the courts.) I don't know if there's a stop-and-identify law in New Jersey, but New York's is only triggered upon police detention, like a Terry stop.

    Again, and I want to be clear here -- I'm not saying anyone should pick a fight or otherwise upset relations with the various police departments, but I see nothing wrong with standing up for your rights when challenged.
    The only difficulty is there there is little that is considered "public property" thee days. the only spotting locations that are public are parks, and even those have the ability to have rules made for them by the government that runs/owns them, which means that we should tread lightly.

    The other issue is that when it comes to arguing with police, you will ALWAYS lose. ALWAYS. Should you stand up for your rights? DEFINITELY. However, the officer that is questioning you at Ikea, or Costco, or the Terminal, is not where you stand up for your rights. You file a report after the incident with the police (chief or whomever), a politician, or whomever has the power to change and is in the job of listening to you. The cop is not that person.
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

  14. #29
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...


  15. #30
    Senior Member darlyn's Avatar
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    Re: Just spoke with KEWR PAPD and guess what they have to say...

    Sergio, that sounds interesting. I'll have to check that out for myself.

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