Questioned at McGuire

[Tom_Turner]

<< People bring cameras and most if not all of them are NOT hassled. Most people don't sit around an airplane recording it's registration and other info about the airplanes and take pictures of it from a million different angles. I understand this can be a foreign concept to many spotters and plane enthusiasts who live and die for airplanes, but take it from a guy who is not much of a "hardcore" spotter, this type of behavior is not exhibited by the average individual. That being said, spotting is not illegal, it can simply appear suspicious to the average individual. >>

What on earth could be the harm at the Open House? Can you answer that question? Give me a scenario and maybe I'll buy it.

If not, then that should've been the response to the person complaining in the first place.

I am not going to suggest that a situation "not" be "handled", but first you need a "situation".

I consider myself a citizen (and bunch of other things) ahead of "plane spotter", but we're a country of laws and those laws are based on rights that are not entirely centered on how close one can come to an "average behavior" standard. Thats best left for authoritarian societies.

Now, on an AFB, I can appreciate different rules will apply, but I disagree that "spotting" is suspicious to the "average individual". This is not nearly the case. Generally speaking, anywhere/anytime anyone has ever been approached by authorities of any stripe in the US [apart from cases where aggressive spotters are on private property and the like], the authorities are generally contacted after scores or dozens or hundreds of people (by definition then, well past the average) have noted the activity and whatever they thought, passed the situation by. More accurately, those rushing to the authorities to report "spotting" activities might be described as the "average" ignorant/busybody/paranoid types (albeit some may be well intentioned).

No one was bashing the guy that apparently has to "do his job", as it seems to have been presented to him, but it makes little sense here, and I think thats what was annoying folks.

I don't personally have a problem with being approached or questioned or called to account by authorities that have legitimate concerns, and for common sense purposes I will submit to it even it seems they don't, but to be held to account to any single person's irrational concerns in a large public gathering of thousands of people seems particularly unreasonable.

Is it asking too much for the person of authority responding to the "complaint", to determine from the "informant" what the offense was? If nothing can be conveyed that is innately suspicious about the alleged behavior, all we are left with is a Bureaucratic/knee-jerk cover your butt response, that is a waste of everyone's time. I wouldn't consider the questioning out of line otherwise, but at an Open House air-show, I think its pretty silly. The fact that the guy could've badly mishandled it, but managed not to, is not a virtue in my opinion. An Open House is intended (I think) to have good community relations (or encourage recruitment). So not doing something particularly obnoxious or unjustified (because he could just as easily done so) is not a reason to be glad.

<<My personal opinion is that if you cannot deal with this kind of "scrutiny" might as well never leave the house.>> :borat: Yeah, well, thats not going to work.

I have very few problems with authorities. No convictions, A 100% clean driving record, and its not because I was never pulled over or done anything wrong, but rather because I do my best to respect and obey the law, and rules, wherever I find them, and I don't give people doing their jobs grief - even if I disagree with them. When I do have a problem, I go up the chain of command after the fact, and it works out well, most of the time.

[USAF Pilot 07]

Tom, firstly, I find many of your arguments spot-on and I agree with many of them.

While taking photos and/or video at an airshow is not abnormal behavior I believe your "average joe" would find someone hanging around an airplane writing down it's registration number and capturing other info in a notebook a little "weird". Regardless, this behavior is not illegal and is most certainly permitted. In fact there were probably many other people doing just this during the airshow, most if not all of them not hassled one bit.

That being said, neither you or I was present at the time of this incident. The account of this incident is completely one-sided. From the account, there seemed to be more than just one person alarmed by this individuals behavior. Were there more? Perhaps. For all we know, the concerned people in this case may have thought this individual was taking down anything from building layouts, access roads, government vehicles' license plate numbers, makes, models or a host of other information. While capturing this information is not illegal, it should raise suspicions as to why someone would want this. We also do not know what the demeanor of this person was at the time.
Also, for what it's worth, the E-3 was located at the end of the ramp, adjacent the "red-line" where spectators were not permitted and were "non-airshow" facilities and assets are located.

All the individual recounting this incident knows is that someone thought what he was doing was suspicious and that a security forces member was sent out to check it out. We do not have the other side of the story, so I do not think we can be so quick to judge or comment on how the situation was handled (which IMO sounded prompt and professional).

[Tom_Turner]

Yeah, thats true, I agree.

Just last year I went to McGuire last year, and a Lyndon Air Cargo C-130 caught my eye in the distance. It wasn't part of the airshow or towed over as a static display. I was at the end of the ramp where you could walk around. No obvious barriers or red lines that I noticed, just sort of a blurring of a demarcation- probably because there were civilians - family members/guests of base personnel if I had to guess, milling around in the next dozen yards or so...

And sure *seemed* as if I could just walk a distance and get the shot I wanted, and if it had not been time to leave, it was tempting to ask someone's permission, but for the reasons you cite, I thought better of "wandering off the reservation"... :D

I actually had thought to ask earlier as well, and would've bet an even chance at success, but didn't really want to chance triggering a drawn out sequence of events if the request wasn't received well. Many times it seems you just have to play it by ear or feel. I remember being screamed at by some Air Force personnel for photographing a Stealth Fighter taxing in at Dayton air show back in 2003, but yet, despite all the signs forbidding it, remember dozens of people clicking away at a Stealth fighter static display (all angles) at Elmira back in 2001 (if I have the year right). You just never know I guess.

[PhilDernerJr]

Sure, maybe writing down registrations is weird. But if there is no relation to terrorism, or any other kind of threat, there is no reason for that person to be approached. Just because things are weird...authorities are supposed to check IDs?

[markg]

What a complete %#&*ing idiot (sorry for the language). I think the MP was on a power trip... for God's sake -

He wasn't an MP, he was just a four striper whatever they are!

[markg]

[quote="Gerard"].Remember, we are at WAR and under a constant terror alert so just give them a little slack. [quote]

Sorry but that is one statement I disagree with. Hopefully in January we will see the end of this BS!

[markg]

I deleted your quote to save bandwidth, but here I will answer some of your questions.

There were two people who saw what I was doing and who obviously pointed me out to the guy who questioned me. These two people were younger members of the AF/ANG (definitely not CAP) and were both stood together against the concrete barriers separating the static display from the parking area where the Skytypers were.

I could see from the looks they were giving me that they had "concerns" about what I was doing, and as I walked past them, I made a point to acknowledge them rather than hide my face or do a 360 and walk away from them.

My demeanor was as it always is when dealing with "officials"-calm. I didn't give the guy grief, and complied with his requests to see my ID and didn't get irate when he walked off with it, as I know that when your ID is being checked they never stand in front of you (not sure why!) The only reason I asked him what I did wrong was because I didn't know if I'd broken some unwritten rule with regards to the E-3.

If security is such an issue, how is it that anyone can walk out of the show and around the base without being challenged, or why is it that if you leave before the show is over there is nobody to point the way out. I wound up driving the length of the base to find a way out and could easily have got on the ramp where there were 2 x C-17's a KC-10 and a KC-135 were parked.

[Matt Molnar]

Remember, we are at WAR and under a constant terror alert so just give them a little slack.

Sorry but that is one statement I disagree with. Hopefully in January we will see the end of this BS!

Lets remember that terrorists are not the only people who would be interested in closeups of military aircraft, and in fact they're probably at the bottom of the list of folks who would be. Mohammed Jihad is not going to learn how to become invisible to an E-3 by looking at it, but a Chinese or Russian spook just may.

[USAF Pilot 07]

Lets remember that terrorists are not the only people who would be interested in closeups of military aircraft, and in fact they're probably at the bottom of the list of folks who would be. Mohammed Jihad is not going to learn how to become invisible to an E-3 by looking at it, but a Chinese or Russian spook just may.

Was just about to post the same thing...

I would not AT ALL be surprised to find foreign spies at US airshows. Even if the stuff on display is not considered "sensitive information", eyes and ears on the ground do much more justice than an aerial photograph or photos gathered off the internet. It's not far fetched to believe that we do it...

To answer's Phil's question... Again no one knew what markg was writing down. Could have been anything. If someone doesn't know what he is writing down, how can they know not to approach him?

To rebut markg's replies...

January will change nothing, regardless of who is elected. The threat of terrorism, and terrorism against military bases will always remain, regardless of who is in office. Let's not forget that it was just a year ago that the Ft. Dix Six were arrested foiling their domestic terrorist plot against Ft. Dix (adjacent to McGuire). And had not been for a concerned citizen working a $8 an hour job at BestBuy suspicious of some video footage dropped off by several men, they may have been able to carry out the attack.
Then the cries would have been "Were was all the security and scrutiny of people videotaping military movements around military bases???" It really comes down to a no-win situation for those trying to protect us, and if possibly foiling a terrorist plot involves inconveniencing a minority of individuals reported as suspicious by several people, I'm all for it.

As for your demeanor, I was not talking about when dealing with the MP, I was talking about before you were approached. To someone else, maybe you looked nervous or sly, which is why they became concerned... Again no one on here was there to give their own personal account. It sounds like you handled your encounter with the MP very well.

A personal story...

I was pulled over in Georgia about 8 months ago. My friend and I were driving from NY to Alabama, he in his car, me in mine. We were going about 85-90 in a 75 when my radar detector went off. I slowed to the speed limit, my friend in front of me didn't see me do this, and kept going. Lo-and-behold about 1/2 mile down the road we come around a curve and there's a cop sitting there in the median. My friend is for sure getting pulled over, right? I mean he's going 90 in a 75, and I'm now doing 75 in a 75 in the right lane. Guess who gets pulled over? Me. After some basic questions from the police officer, explaining that I was in the military headed down to AL for a 6 week course, he proceeds to tell me the reason I was pulled over was because I was driving an Audi, with NY license plates and tinted windows and that the interstate I was on was a known thoroughfare for people transporting drugs from down South to up North. All very true statements. While I was doing nothing wrong, nothing illegal, I was a young guy driving a fairly nice car and probably fit the profile of a stereotypical person who would be trafficking drugs. Sure I was inconvenienced by being pulled over, even if only for a few minutes, but I understood where the cop was coming from and what he was trying to do. While what he did was against the letter of the law, I personally do not fault him for being pro-active against a HUGE problem. I was doing nothing wrong, had nothing to hide, and after a few simple questions and ID verification I was FREE to go as planned.

[PhilDernerJr]

To answer's Phil's question... Again no one knew what markg was writing down. Could have been anything. If someone doesn't know what he is writing down, how can they know not to approach him?

Ok, but not knowing what he's writing down is not enough to warrant approaching him. You would need to figure somethign that he coudl POSSIBLY be writing that would present a threat that would warrant investigating.

I don't mean to single out you or your airshow, as this is a problem we face everywhere in our hobby. However, because it's an airshow, where enthusiasts are INVITED, I find it to be somewhat offensive.

[Gerard]

[

>Sorry but that is one statement I disagree with. Hopefully in January we will see the end of this BS<

Uh, whichever candidate is elected there will NOT be an end to whatever "BS" you refer to.

[USAF Pilot 07]

[quote=Phil D.]

To answer's Phil's question... Again no one knew what markg was writing down. Could have been anything. If someone doesn't know what he is writing down, how can they know not to approach him?

Ok, but not knowing what he's writing down is not enough to warrant approaching him. You would need to figure somethign that he coudl POSSIBLY be writing that would present a threat that would warrant investigating.

[/quote:3f2l10zz]

Again, as I stated above, he could have been writing down anything from government lic. plates with corresponding makes and models, buidling layouts, specific access ways to buildings, or a whole host of other things. Neither you or I was there to witness his demeanor prior to being confronted. Maybe he was looking around, then writing things down. He obviously did something to appear more than just an aviation enthusiast - of which there were thousands present who did not get hassled once all day. As I said before, the E-3 was on the end of the flightline, right next to the edge of the restricted area next to several large hangars, an access road to the control tower and access to fuel tanks (to name a few things). These are things he COULD have been taking note of. Unless the security forces member gets a clear view of his notebook, he has NO WAY of knowing what exactly he is taking notes of. Again, security forces are not just concerned about terrorism, but espionage becomes a HUGE concern as well. What easier way to find out what someone is doing by asking them and taking a few minutes to check them out?

I say err on the side of caution, by checking out the situation that several people reported as suspicious. While you may inconvenience someone a few minutes, at least there is a feeling of confidence that this person is not up to anything he or she ought not to be.

While the terrorists comprising the Ft. Dix Six were doing NOTHING illegal by hanging out off-base videotaping movement in and out of a military installation, an employee at a local BestBuy said "hmmm why is there so much footage of movement in and out of a military post?" and reported this to the authorities. Perhaps he should have said "Why, they are doing nothing illegal, maybe this is just a hobby that I do not know about, I should just do my job and put this video on a DVD for them." Of course, if he did this, we may have had dozens if not hundreds of dead soldiers today.

I don't mean to single out you or your airshow, as this is a problem we face everywhere in our hobby. However, because it's an airshow, where enthusiasts are INVITED, I find it to be somewhat offensive.

99.9% of the general public walked on to, and off of the base without incident. I personally apologize that this person, who was obviously not up to anything malicious, was inconvenienced for a few minutes while a security forces member checked him out after receiving concerning "complaints". The invitation was to the general public, aviation enthusiasts included, to come onto our base and enjoy the airshow. That being said, the invitation was not carte-blanche to come onto the installation and act suspiciously enough for more than one person to report you to security forces, and expect not to be at the least questioned. There were over 100,000 people at the event on Sunday, of which there were probably hundreds of aviation enthusiasts, taking photos, videos and writing down information, most of whom were not bothered.

Bottom-line is that 170,000 people attended the airshow that weekend. 99.9% of them walked on-to the flightline, enjoyed a great show and then walked off-of the flightline without incident. Each one of them was kept safe by base and local and state off-base officials. If a few individuals were singled out as being suspicious and were only inconvenienced for a few minutes I apologize, and hope their "confrontations" were handled professionally (in this case sounds like it was). I would rather have a few people confronted by authorities who received concerns from other individuals, and maybe thwart a malicious act than to just have ZERO security or scrutiny.

It's easy to view this event as a Monday morning quarterback. Yes, we all know markg was not doing anything wrong, and that he was only writing down registration numbers. It's easy after the fact to say "Well the security forces should have known he was only writing down registration numbers, and should never have bothered him, he's obviously not a terrorist". It's easy to relate many similar experiences some of us have had with law enforcement while spotting to markg's encounter. It's easy to comment and make judgments based on one-side of a story - the side that was inconvenienced. I try to look at all the issues involved, the possible and plausible scenarios first and then comment on the situation. In this case, I believe there was cause to confront markg (people reporting his actions to security forces as suspicious), and once confronted, the situation was handled promptly and professionally and within minutes markg was FREE to resume his activities.

[PhilDernerJr]

My point is that whatever he might be writing down...is something that would better be covered taking photographs of those very things you mentioned. Yet, that's allowed (as it should be).

Regardless, your post was well-said. I do see your points. I know you can see some of the frustration on the enthusiast side.

We should always expect to get some suspicious or curious looks when practicing our hobby. I just wasn't expecting to see that at the airshow is all.

[Steven Holzinger]

Sorry to get off-topic for a second....

But only 100,000 people on Sunday? Pretty sure there was a tad bit more... but then again, I wasn't shooting from the crowd line...

[USAF Pilot 07]

Sorry to get off-topic for a second....

But only 100,000 people on Sunday? Pretty sure there was a tad bit more... but then again, I wasn't shooting from the crowd line...

Aerial pictures from the C-17 demo, along with some other info throughout the day indicated there were probably between 100,000 and 110,000 people there on Sunday. The official number for the weekend was 170,000 - somewhat inflated.