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Thread: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

  1. #31
    Senior Member hiss srq's Avatar
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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Since the initial shock and disgust of the order has wained for me I can properly talk now. The Air Force smacked it's own nation in the fa ce with this deal. It was a snub to Made In the USA and a snub to our own economy. I have a new low respect for the top brass in the air force.
    Southwest Airlines-"Once it pop's it's time to stop" Southwest Airlines-"Our Shamu's are almost real" Southwest Airlines -"We blow our top real easy" Southwest Airlines- "You can't top us..... really"

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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Quote Originally Posted by hiss srq
    Since the initial shock and disgust of the order has wained for me I can properly talk now. The Air Force smacked it's own nation in the fa ce with this deal. It was a snub to Made In the USA and a snub to our own economy. I have a new low respect for the top brass in the air force.
    We should really wait to sit why the Air Force chose the Airbus aircraft.

    If the 767 tanker project was inferior to the Airbus one, then it was Boeing's fault to have lost the project.

    If Boeing did not give the Air Force an aircraft they wanted, then Boeing should not receive the bid.
    The problem with socialism is that you eventually,
    run out of other people’s money.
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  3. #33
    Moderator Matt Molnar's Avatar
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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    I don't distrust our Air Force leaders as far as their decision making regarding the aircraft itself...I don't doubt that the A330 is better for their needs than the 767. But coming on the heels of another high profile military aircraft being outsourced to Europe, the new Marine One, I'm afraid of the potential symbolism: that we've lost our manufacturing edge, and foreigners can provide a better value than we can for ourselves. I don't believe this is true for the nation as a whole as Boeing has been known to screw the pooch on many occasions, but it doesn't matter what we know, what matters is what everyone else thinks. What's next? Indian-built F-18s?
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

  4. #34
    Senior Member hiss srq's Avatar
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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    The problem is Airbus will do ANYTHING and I mean anything to get an order including take a loss for the order.
    Southwest Airlines-"Once it pop's it's time to stop" Southwest Airlines-"Our Shamu's are almost real" Southwest Airlines -"We blow our top real easy" Southwest Airlines- "You can't top us..... really"

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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Quote Originally Posted by GothamSpotter
    I don't distrust our Air Force leaders as far as their decision making regarding the aircraft itself...I don't doubt that the A330 is better for their needs than the 767. But coming on the heels of another high profile military aircraft being outsourced to Europe, the new Marine One, I'm afraid of the potential symbolism: that we've lost our manufacturing edge, and foreigners can provide a better value than we can for ourselves. I don't believe this is true for the nation as a whole as Boeing has been known to screw the pooch on many occasions, but it doesn't matter what we know, what matters is what everyone else thinks. What's next? Indian-built F-18s?
    Boeing already had the Tanker program, but, they screwed that up, had they played by the rules they would not be in this position. Back in 2003, Airbus did not have the boom technology for the fuel probes, now they do, it was Boeing that Airbus time to bid on the program....

    As for Marine One, from what I under, the helicopter was 20% more efficient than the American product.

    Maybe Boeing should have given the Air Force "2" bids, one for the 767 & one for the 777, since it seems the Air Force wanted a bigger bird....

    If an Indian built F-18 is a superior product, then I would expect the military to go for the superior product.

    Am I excited about the military flying foreign owned aircraft, no, I am not, but, I do expect the American military to fly the best.

    Once again, looking at the past, because of greed, Boeing screwed themselves out of lucrative contract which landed people in jail...
    The problem with socialism is that you eventually,
    run out of other people’s money.
    ” - Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    I saw a Boeing powerpoint on their website that indicated they had given the USAF the option of the 777 so I can only imagine they wanted something bigger than a 767 and smaller than a 777, and this is a niche that has been owned by the A330 since the 767-400 failed to catch on with more than 2 buyers. Or maybe they just wanted to send Boeing a message in the wake of the Druyun scandal. Or maybe they wanted, as was mentioned in the Seattle newspaper article, to show foreign governments that if they bought our weapons systems, we would buy theirs. Remember the current thinking in Washington is pro-globalizaton and anti-union. So buying a foreign plane and having it assembled in the non-union south is very much in line with that. In fact, there's no reason to think the presidential limo couldn't be a Toyota Prius if the administration wanted to send a message about conservation. What bothers me is that rather than telling it like it is, and saying 'the foreign product is better than the American one,' they'd have it assembled by a US contractor so it wouldn't have a foreign-sounding name. It would go in a Toyota Prius and come out a "Plymouth Freedommobile" or something. Our leaders like to say America has the best engineering, the most productive workers, etc etc but their actions indicate they believe otherwise, and to be honest, most consumers do as well.

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    Senior Member nikon50bigma's Avatar
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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    While this isn't good news for Boeing its outstanding news for Long Island since Grumman said they will be expanding their Long Island operation adding 1000 plus jobs if they go the contract. So this is wonderful news for Grumman and Long Island!
    Where? I thought the old plant was torn down.
    Patrick O --- Staten Island, NY

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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    The official and highly specific state by state economic impact list on the Northrop Grumman website lists many states, but New York isn't one of them, nor is NJ or CT (in which P&W would have gotten the engine deal had the contract gone Boeing) for that matter. I don't think this deal does anything for LI or our area as a whole, in fact it's a negative if you think of the opportunity lost at Pratt, which is already in bad shape for not having a viable competitor to new generation engines from GE and RR.

    http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc45/ben ... mpact.html

    BTW as I imagined, the official website for the KC-45 does not seem to mention the word Airbus, it just refers to the craft being "based on the A330 airliner", so maybe they'll have us believe the A stands for America or something. It does mention EADS North America, but most of our fellow citizens have no idea what that is.

    I am a bit curious as to what -- other than "Americanizing" the aircraft/political PR reasons -- the need for Northrop to even be involved in this deal is considering that the same tanker has been sold to the UK, Australia, UAE, and KSA as an Airbus product with no Northrop involvement.

  9. #39
    Moderator Matt Molnar's Avatar
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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    BTW as I imagined, the official website for the KC-45 does not seem to mention the word Airbus, it just refers to the craft being based on the A330 airliner, so maybe they'll have us believe the A stands for America or something.
    A stands for AWESOME!

    Here's an interesting story from Bloomberg, about how Airbus' CEO thinks this deal is going to save their ass from the falling dollar. As we know, Airbus has been in trouble in recent months because airliner transactions are made in US dollars no matter who they're selling to, but nearly all of Airbus' materials and labor expenses are calculated in Euros, so every time the dollar falls 10 cents it costs them about 1 billion Euros. With the labor of the aircraft final assembly and many large parts being built in the US, the KC-45 (as well as the new civilian A330F, which will also be built in Alabama) they will be somewhat insulated from currency fluctuations. Of course if the Euro starts to tank vs. the dollar, which is possible since this is a long-term contract, Airbus would be sort of screwed.

    But more importantly it is my understanding that no matter what their contract says, the Pentagon often comes back with scores of expensive tweaks to new aircraft, as we've recently seen in the case of the extraordinarily expensive new Marine One, and many of those costs must be absorbed by the manufacturer. In the end this might not be such an amazing deal for EADS.
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Also, the original model designation was KC-30. Anyone know why they changed it?
    Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem.
    All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them under control.
    I trust you are not in too much distress. —Captain Eric Moody, British Airways Flight 9

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    Senior Member SengaB's Avatar
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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Here are 2 nice shots I came accross on the net of the aircraft OPF the RAAF.



    I think it looks pretty snazzy expecially with the refueling probes installed.

    Senga

  12. #42
    Senior Member moose135's Avatar
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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Quote Originally Posted by GothamSpotter
    Also, the original model designation was KC-30. Anyone know why they changed it?
    That was Airbus' designation for the aircraft, just like Boeing called their aircraft the KC-767. It was never the USAF designation, which follows certain numbering conventions.

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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Yes,the strong euro has been hurting European manufacturers' competitiveness, especially in the US market but also in any global market where pricing is dollar-based like commercial airplanes. It's why Euopean automakers have been considering setting up more US assembly plants (BMW and Mercedes are already here, VW is in Mexico, etc.) The fact that this tanker contract volume makes setting up a US assembly line for commercial Airbii economically viable levels the playing field and eliminates whatever exchange rate cost advantage a US competitor would have over them. However, that it encourages export sales by US companies is pretty much the main reason given by our government for telling us not to worry about the sinking dollar. So, in sum, our government encourages export sales of US companies, but also encourages foreign companies to move their production here so they can better compete with US companies. Globalization really mixes things up, but it's also inevitable. You have to figure out how to benefit from it, because none of the potential successors to the W administration are protectionists either.

    I'd have liked to see this contract go to Boeing as a shareholder and someone who has generally tried to buy American in recent years (even though I've lived overseas and worked for foreign entities), but even Boeing has globalized with the 787 to the point that it's hard to say that product is any more 'American' than an Alabama-assembled A330. The WSJ had a good article not long ago about how a US-assembled Toyota Camry by some measures had more US content than a Ford Mustang (I'd rather drive the latter, but not my point). Anyway, I do hope from this tanker situation that a) people will have a better understanding of the increasing globalization of projects like this and b) the 'Scarebus' bashers in the A vs. B forums finally shut up, because it was good enough for Uncle Sam.

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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Quote Originally Posted by hiss srq
    The problem is Airbus will do ANYTHING and I mean anything to get an order including take a loss for the order.
    Ryan to be blunt I read your last two posts and both are just without merit... In no way did the US Airforce slap the U.S.A in the face and two, often times in business you choose to offer products at great discounts and even take a one time lose upfront in order to capitalize on the other streams of revenue that will come in from this contract.

    It would have been a slap in the face for the USAF to have gone with Boeing who proved it couldn't deliver on a product which in the long run would have cost the U.S tax payer more money in the end.

    I think everyone here needs to drop this entire BS complaint "Oh poor us." Here's the deal boys and girls we are in a global economy now and deals like this just don't flow back to France...this deal will create tons of jobs right here in the U.S and contracts like this serve to also benefit our relations worldwide. We can't afford to isolate our economy from the rest of the world. So drop the BS and accept that Airbus won this deal fair and square. If you want to be pissed at someone write Boeing and ask them why they sat on their a$$es and didn't come to the table with a real solution.

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    Re: Air Force Snubs Boeing, Orders Airbus Tankers

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    Ryan to be blunt I read your last two posts and both are just without merit... In no way did the US Airforce slap the U.S.A in the face and two, often times in business you choose to offer products at great discounts and even take a one time lose upfront in order to capitalize on the other streams of revenue that will come in from this contract.

    It would have been a slap in the face for the USAF to have gone with Boeing who proved it couldn't deliver on a product which in the long run would have cost the U.S tax payer more money in the end.

    I think everyone here needs to drop this entire BS complaint "Oh poor us." Here's the deal boys and girls we are in a global economy now and deals like this just don't flow back to France...this deal will create tons of jobs right here in the U.S and contracts like this serve to also benefit our relations worldwide. We can't afford to isolate our economy from the rest of the world. So drop the BS and accept that Airbus won this deal fair and square. If you want to be pissed at someone write Boeing and ask them why they sat on their a$$es and didn't come to the table with a real solution.
    Damn, I hate when I have to agree with Tommy :mrgreen:
    The problem with socialism is that you eventually,
    run out of other people’s money.
    ” - Margaret Thatcher

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