The Pledge of Allegiance

[Tom_Turner]

Really too bad about all these people removing Christmas trees....... seems these trees and secular "ornaments" only became "offensive" in recent years.

I don't believe it is so much about being "offended" as it is a power trip to deprive enjoyment or acknowledgment of our heritage.

Perhaps to Tommy's point, I wonder just how long America and Europe can go with their idealistic philosophy of open societies (that I am 100% in favor of all things being equal), while importing large populations of people throughout much of the rest of the world that come from places where race/culture/ethnicity identity are in ascendancy with little tolerance for others... *their* "homelands"/cultures fiercely preserved, while pushing the envelope abroad to establish their native intolerance.

[NcSchu]

I'm an Atheist so the "under God" part really means nothing to me.

[adam613]

Really too bad about all these people removing Christmas trees....... seems these trees and secular "ornaments" only became "offensive" in recent years.

I don't believe it is so much about being "offended" as it is a power trip to deprive enjoyment or acknowledgment of our heritage.

It's not so much that the trees themselves became offensive, it's that the people pushing the trees became offensive. The Christmas tree was always a religious symbol, but non-Christian people didn't really start caring until the '80s, which "coincidently" is about the same time that it became clear how much power conservative Christians (many of whom don't necessarily believe in freedom of religion) have in American politics.

This isn't to say it's the "fault" of either fundamentalist Christians or those who take full advantage of freedom of religion. Like most things in this thread, the power trip goes both ways. I've heard just as much "ha ha we have our Christmas tree and there's nothing you can do about it" as "ha ha you can't have your Christmas tree in a public space" behavior. And the fact that a lot of the fears about the rise of fundamentalist Christianity haven't come to fruition doesn't seem to have changed things, for either side.

[Tom_Turner]

It's not so much that the trees themselves became offensive, it's that the people pushing the trees became offensive. The Christmas tree was always a religious symbol, but non-Christian people didn't really start caring until the '80s, which "coincidently" is about the same time that it became clear how much power conservative Christians (many of whom don't necessarily believe in freedom of religion) have in American politics.

This isn't to say it's the "fault" of either fundamentalist Christians or those who take full advantage of freedom of religion. Like most things in this thread, the power trip goes both ways. I've heard just as much "ha ha we have our Christmas tree and there's nothing you can do about it" as "ha ha you can't have your Christmas tree in a public space" behavior. And the fact that a lot of the fears about the rise of fundamentalist Christianity haven't come to fruition doesn't seem to have changed things, for either side.

I think you are right in certain cases Adam, but the Pine Trees were certainly there to begin with most everywhere, (not sure they needed any "pushing") before the so-called "culture war(s)" as its called today. Perhaps across the country the Christmas tree was an overtly religious symbol, I don't know, but in New York City it was arguably as secular as snow, or perhaps, Santa Claus :D - (yeah, I know, its still Christmas...but, its a Federal Holiday isn't it?).

Look at the "popular" culture. How many "christmas" episodes of television series have there been from the 1950s until now? Theres inevitably a "moral" theme to most of those episodes, but it never gets deeply into "Jesus".

At the time I grew up in NYC, there was no religious observance in my family, and amongst friends, other cultures (non Christian) celebrated Christmas (not that they *had* to) some Chinese and Jews etc. and most of my nominally Christian friends' folks (who did go to church) celebrated Christmas as if it might as well have been Thanksgiving or New Years. (Most of us, in public school, didn't know what a Nativity Scene was). So, I do feel, locally at least, getting rid of trees in places like New York City, is a bit of perverse muscle flexing.

Particularly as there is no shortage of, in one way or another, "govt related" pro-multicultural efforts going on concurrently...some very positive and enlightening while others, from my point of view, seem to have an aggressive and perhaps even hostile bent. (I mention multi-cultural, because my feelings on this are cultural and not particularly religious.)

In any event, projections that point to the US being half Latino in 2 or 3 decades, might provide an interesting wild card at either end of the so-called "culture wars".

Tom