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Thread: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

  1. #16
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    The only thing I don't like about DL is their RJs. I prefer mainline Delta over Delta Connection. Where I live, DL used to be completely mainline, until June 1999, when they added RJs. Now its always a toss up on what you get. DL will sometimes have more mainline than RJ's, and other times they will be about equal. I miss having mainline only in DAB.
    As for on time performance...I do feel that they have some issues with this, but who doesn't? I flew DL three times this year already and am flying them one more time before the end of the year. I only had a problem one time when it came to on time performance and one time when it came to losing baggage, totaling two times with baggage problems and I have been flying Delta since the early 1990's.
    I think that most of the delays are not Delta's fault. They are ATC's. Delta really didn't think very clearly when they made a hub in ATL in my opinion. There is almost always something wrong in ATL weatherwise. Since I fly from DAB a lot, I go through ATL almost all the time (exception from a few times flying from MCO). But BWI also has those problems and I overnighted there once going from JAX-BWI-ISP. That was Southwest, which brings me back to the fact that all airlines are prone to delay. Now, if you fly from LGA, you will almost always be delayed no matter what airline, because they only use one runway for take off and the intersecting runway for landing. Take off lines at LGA have literally extended from the end of Runway 31 to the other end at Runway 13!! Just saying that it isn't always the airlines.
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  2. #17
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyNavy
    I didn't find any rats in my recent 767 flights. The 767-400ER is actually an awesome ride, especially with the new interior modifications.

    I did notice, though, that you refrained from commenting on United decrepid LAX terminal. How convenient. :-)

    Either way, this is a thread about Delta. No one cares about United or American here.

    Enjoy your peanuts on Southwest. I'll enjoy my Mile High Mojito. :P

    Now scram, Delta hater!
    No I simply forgot to mention UAL's LAX site which isn't all that great but one out of five isn't bad when you consider Delta's terminals... You won't find any rats per say on those 767s but you will find old worn stained seats with broken seat backs, busted tray tables, small overheads, and 1980s style F class seats.

    As for caring about UAL and AA, plenty do care, they care about and enjoy the only true sleeper suite coast to coast, new biz class suites and Flagship first class domestic suites, adjustable headrests in coach, 777 style cabins with new more accommodating overheads, a frequent flyer program I can use on over 20 airlines, more clubs nationwide, bright clean new terminals, and more ticket options.

    Oh on WN I'll also enjoy getting to my destination on-time, full size planes with full size storage, overall greater seat pitch, oh and you must have forgot....snack packs...yep WN gives you a snack pack on flights 2 hours or longer along with those peanuts and not just cheese and crackers. Oh lets not forget free blankets and pillows. Oh btw I'll also enjoy a number of cocktails on WN....and for FREE! See WN gives its Rapid Reward members who earn a free ticket drink coupons for free drinks, how much did that mile high cost you?

    Chris I'm not a Delta hater but I recognize good service when I see it and Delta does not provide good service and you can sit here and defend them to you're blue in the face but in the end it comes down to who's earning my dollar and who's not and Delta isn't and no company today can afford to say "oh we can afford to lose one persons revenue" because they can't afford it. I use to fly jetBlue all the time but because of their downturn in customer service theyíve lost my business. You can call me what you like but when I have to be on the road I expect good service and value for my dollar. Iím loyal to certain airlines, hotel chains and car rental companies because theyíve earned my business while others have not.

  3. #18
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Tommy,

    No one ever said IFE was the be all and end all of a successful airline, as you implied we are. I also don't need to be a revenue passenger as much as you to know what I like. I can make my own opinions which might not always agree with Mike Boyd. Although usually they do.

    I do think that if an airline that offered good IFE that really invested time and money in marketing and went up against AA or UA on their deep-rooted routes, that you'd see AA and UA modify their own IFE in some. That opinion, and it's honestly how I feel. I think that AA gets away with sardine-can MD-80s and little or no IFE because no one has the size, resources, or political backing to set up so many daily flights a day to try to compete....especially when there's other routes that are for the taking which are profitable without such competitive headaches. So, that comparison doesn't hold much water with me.

    When I do fly, the most important thing to me is leg room, then food/drink options. With that, especially in Matt's heavy delay situation, the IFE makes a huge difference for me in terms of how angry I DON'T become because I'm distracted and noit thinking about the annoying situation I'm in....regardless of whether or not the delay is the airline's fault.

    Your revenue miles doesn't make my airline preferences any more valid than mine. Your preferences will be different from the person next to you.

    Also, whether passengers enjoyt the flight or not, airlines pass and fail based on theeconomics of it all. You seem to be talking about business strategy in an airline's failure rather than what pax enjoy better. I've nevfer heard a passenger make flying decisions because an airtline did or didn't have better overhead cabins.

    With that, as you yourself say, IFE "don't mean squat to the traveler who steps on a plane every week for business." There are other kinds of passengers who have different needs and wants that are not yours...whifch isd why business is in a separate, smaller, cabin. One can also say that you are not in touch with the needs of an average economy vacation traveller.
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  4. #19
    Senior Member RDU-JFK's Avatar
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Very well said, Phil.
    "I can't wait until tomorrow, cause I get better looking everyday"
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  5. #20
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    No one ever said IFE was the be all and end all of a successful airline, as you implied we are. I also don't need to be a revenue passenger as much as you to know what I like. I can make my own opinions which might not always agree with Mike Boyd. Although usually they do.
    Phil you implied it very clearly in you're first response to me. You clearly said that I thought window dressing was IFE and snacks. You clearly said without any other example that you enjoyed IFE and snacks on a plane. That's a blanket statement, you never said what you thought made a good airline.

    I do think that if an airline that offered good IFE that really invested time and money in marketing and went up against AA or UA on their deep-rooted routes, that you'd see AA and UA modify their own IFE in some. That opinion, and it's honestly how I feel. I think that AA gets away with sardine-can MD-80s and little or no IFE because no one has the size, resources, or political backing to set up so many daily flights a day to try to compete....especially when there's other routes that are for the taking which are profitable without such competitive headaches. So, that comparison doesn't hold much water with me.
    Phil you don't think DAL has the money, time and political backing to compete with AA? Letís get serious Phil, DAL is multibillion dollar a year company just like AA and UAL, they have the money, time and political backing to compete with AA and UAL, and how they choose to invest is one thing. DAL choose not to invest in their long haul fleet but decided to invest in expanding Comair, and ASA, it was the wrong move as witnessed today by the draw down in CRJ's and ERJ's because they aren't economically viable as they use to be. As for competitive headaches....no one ever said competition was easy.

    When I do fly, the most important thing to me is leg room, then food/drink options. With that, especially in Matt's heavy delay situation, the IFE makes a huge difference for me in terms of how angry I DON'T become because I'm distracted and not thinking about the annoying situation I'm in....regardless of whether or not the delay is the airline's fault.
    IMO itís pretty immature to even get angry in a delay situation like that... How did people pass the time before IFE? I don't recall reading about the many riots that took place before IFE? Infact there's more air rage now then before IFE. For you IFE might make a difference but overall there's not proof its helps people stay calmer.

    Your revenue miles doesn't make my airline preferences any more valid than mine. Your preferences will be different from the person next to you.
    I'm not sure what this means...? I'm pointing out why I don't like Delta using valid examples based on my experience in response to you're post and Chris's. No where did I say YOU have to not fly Delta, I could careless what airline you fly. Chris's example are biased based on his employment at Delta. I'm sure his opinion would be slanted towards AA, UAL, US or F9 if he worked for one of them. I'm speaking from a business travelerís standpoint, and yes I'm dam snobby when it comes to travel but you know what I have the right to be. When my company is spending tens of thousands of dollars a year and asking me to be away from home the airlines, hotels and car rental company dam well better earn my business and roll the red carpet out when I walk in. Fact is Delta didn't do that and just to mention US for a min. US just lost my ENTIRE company's preferred airline status because of what they are doing.

    Also, whether passengers enjoy the flight or not, airlines pass and fail based on the economics of it all. You seem to be talking about business strategy in an airline's failure rather than what pax enjoy better. I've never heard a passenger make flying decisions because an airline did or didn't have better overhead cabins.
    Phil I'm not even sure how to answer the overhead statement....you've never heard? Bro let tell you when I was out at Boeing one of the key designs of the 787 cabin was overhead bin space and the ability to fit three 24 inch rollers in the overhead. Overhead bin space for any frequent flyer is a HUGE demand. A major upgrade to AA's planes was the installation of the extra large overhead to accommodate 24 inch rollers, this was in response to consumer demand.

    Phil and airline isn't any different then other business whether they fail or not. Why do you think Delta went into Chap 11? It was combination of piss poor management and bad decision that overall affected the consumer and drove the consumer away.

    With that, as you yourself say, IFE "don't mean squat to the traveler who steps on a plane every week for business." There are other kinds of passengers who have different needs and wants that are not yours...which is why business is in a separate, smaller, cabin. One can also say that you are not in touch with the needs of an average economy vacation traveler.
    Phil did you read all my posts? I clearly said IFE is great for the family making their once a year vacation trip to Disney. Trust me I know what the average vacation traveler wants but the average vacation traveler doesn't add much of anything to the bottom line of an airline. Its the business traveler who is buying fully refundable tickets either in advance or at the last min who is driving the airlines bottom line, those are the customers the airlines need to cater to first. You can even ask Art from ISP. Art did fly US all the time but because US is shunning the business traveler he pulled his business, Art travels as much if not more then I do? Again do the numbers can US afford to lose Art? No they can't.

    I'm entitled to voicing my opinion on DAL, however no where I said "YOU MUST NOT FLY THEM." If someone asks me "should I fly Delta or AA?" I'd tell them fly AA for the very same reasons I've stated in this thread. Now I'll recap why I feel AA and UAL are far better carriers then DAL.

    AA
    -Larger route network (has nothing to do with politics)
    -Newer cleaner coach cabins.
    -New Biz class product.
    -New Flagship suites.
    -Newer terminals
    -More clubs
    -More code shares
    -Better global alliance
    -Better frequent flyer program

    UAL
    -PS service to LAX/SFO
    -True lay flat suite to LAX/SFO
    -EcoPlus (few bucks gets you lots of leg room)
    -Better Hubs
    -More club access with the US codeshare and Star Alliance
    -Outstanding buy on board program
    -Star Alliance code share

    WN
    -Low fares.
    -Great Frequent flyer program.
    -Free drinks.
    -More leg room then AA or DAL.
    -New modern terminals in almost all major connecting cities, example BWI.
    -No black out dates for free travel.
    -They are simple and easy (new boarding program I'm 50/50 but we'll see.)

    Why I don't fly DAL

    -Poor New York terminals, the worst in the nation IMO.
    -Most aircraft haven't been updated with new cabins in a decade.
    -F class domestic product is over a decade old.
    -I have to check my roller because it doesn't fit on most of DAL's planes.
    -One of the worst baggage problems in the industry.
    -ATL is hell to connect in, its simple to big and lacks the same retail and food services as DFW, ORD, IAD, DEN, BWI, and SFO.
    -Frequent flyer program is nothing more then a bad joke.
    -Upgrades...? What upgrades.

    Phil my examples are based off of real life experience as a person who travels for work over 160,000 miles a year. I know you traveled a lot this year to but we are apples and oranges. Iím on the other side of the ticket counter and youíre not, itís not the same thing. Iíd consider myself having a good pulse on the likes and dislikes of todayís frequent traveler. Whether you want to take my experience seriously or not is youíre choice but Chris is trying minimizing my examples of Delta when the fact is theyíre true. Delta didnít declare Chap 11 because they wanted to, they had to. Delta maybe starting to improve its customer service with all these nice onboard things but if you canít deliver on getting youíre passenger to their destinations on time with their bags then all the window dressing in the world wonít help them.

    Just a disclaimer to all, none of what Phil and I post are attacks on each other on a personal level, both of us are good friends and enjoy a heated debate or competition, you should see us when we play pool, which btw Phil has been a long timeÖhehe.

  6. #21
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Tommy, I think you are missing my point completely. However, allow me to respond to some points of yours.

    Phil you don't think DAL has the money, time and political backing to compete with AA? Letís get serious Phil, DAL is multibillion dollar a year company just like AA and UAL, they have the money, time and political backing to compete with AA and UAL, and how they choose to invest is one thing. DAL choose not to invest in their long haul fleet but decided to invest in expanding Comair, and ASA, it was the wrong move as witnessed today by the draw down in CRJ's and ERJ's because they aren't economically viable as they use to be. As for competitive headaches....no one ever said competition was easy.
    No, I'm saying that AA and UA are so saturated in their own markets, and that there are enough markets out there for everyone, that DL and other airlines don't need to go head to head with them So, AA and UA fly virtually uncontested on certain major routes without various features that people do enjoy. AA monopolizes certain markets because they own certain routes...not because people like them. $1,500 from LGA-DFW two weeks prior to the flight.....sound familiar anyone? (actual quote from today)

    Why do you think Delta went into Chap 11? It was combination of piss poor management and bad decision that overall affected the consumer and drove the consumer away.
    I disagree. Sure, several airlines that went into bankruptcy were ****ty, but the downturn of the economy and 9/11 also swallowed up airlines that didn't necessarily have it coming. Everyone was affected, even your saviors at UA. I see it as a city being flooded. Just because the buildings with 80 and 90 stories were spared doesn't mean that the 40-50 story ones that fell below the waterline were wimpy.

    Look at the lengths that you're going to to prove that IFE is a waste. Again, all I said is that it makes me feel better, and why I like IFE. I've never seen a rebuttal to someone's preference before.

    You seem to only talk about businessmen's preferences, as though their preferences matter over that of the general flying public, which, I could be wrong, outnumbers businessmen on flights, no? A LOT of people on planes are once or twice a year flyers. Take our nation's population of "once or twice a yearers" and before you know it...a plane is full.

    Most importantly, my first response to you said was that if you say the IFE and drinks is window dressing, then I like window dressing (put it on my salad!). I never said Delta was the greatest, nor did I criticise or attack your views on Delta. I just said that, what you tried to shoot down, I enjoy. You are the one that started your next reply by telling me that I didn't know the needs and wants of the public. I didn't even know we were debating anything!

    All I'm saying is that IFE is enjoyed by many. You seemed to try to be upset because someone had a good time on Delta due to IFE and a few good drinks.

    I'm pointing out why I don't like Delta...
    No, you're not. Voicing your opinion would include a lot of "I prefer this," and "I've not enjoyed that," and not any "harsh" comments you "you this" or that. You're posts aggressively discredit others' opinions because you have 160k revenue miles and we don't. Sharing your own opinion does not include debating other people's. Big difference.


    I also second Tommy's disclaimer about friendly debate. He's usually not so courageous when I have two working hands though.
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  7. #22
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    No, I'm saying that AA and UA are so saturated in their own markets, and that there are enough markets out there for everyone, that DL and other airlines don't need to go head to head with them So, AA and UA fly virtually uncontested on certain major routes without various features that people do enjoy. AA monopolizes certain markets because they own certain routes...not because people like them. $1,500 from LGA-DFW two weeks prior to the flight.....sound familiar anyone? (actual quote from today)
    Uncontested Phil? Newsflash DAL had a HUB at DFW, guess what? It failed and not for any other reason then they didn't invest in the proper city pairs. DAL always looked at DFW as the bastard child, they wasted money for years on DFW until they finally were forced to close it. As for uncontested have you taken a look at ATL and many cities in the south? DAL is the only choice. AA and UAL go head to head against each other at ORD and LAX. Phil the airlines are a business, they are there to make money for the shareholder so you know what, when they can get away with charging $1500 LGA-DFW they are. Is it rightÖI donít know we live in a capital society, is it right we pay over $2.00 a gallon for gas? Prob not but we do and weíll pay $1500 LGA-DFW

    I disagree. Sure, several airlines that went into bankruptcy were ****ty, but the downturn of the economy and 9/11 also swallowed up airlines that didn't necessarily have it coming. Everyone was affected, even your saviors at UA. I see it as a city being flooded. Just because the buildings with 80 and 90 stories were spared doesn't mean that the 40-50 story ones that fell below the waterline were wimpy.
    Phil you disagree on what fact? The fact is DAL did not invest in a long haul product where other airlines did during the boom of the 90s. DAL's investment was in the 50 seat RJ. 2007 will see 1000 50 seat RJs be taken out of service because they've proved economically challenging to operate. DAL also didn't invest in capital infrastructure where others did, what did DAL doÖ? They started Delta Express, failed. DAL was heading towards Chap 11 whether or not 9/11 took place or not.

    Where did that statement "your saviors" come from, sounds like youíre grabbing at things to prove a point and putting words in my mouth. I never said UAL was my savior, UAL's management almost drove them out of business worse then DAL. The one and only thing that kept UAL alive was their people. UAL has always been known for providing the outstanding customer service of the majors.

    Look at the lengths that you're going to prove that IFE is a waste. Again, all I said is that it makes me feel better, and why I like IFE. I've never seen a rebuttal to someone's preference before.
    Never said it was a waste, again putting words in my mouth, but its not what separates a good airline from a great airline. Let's use jetBlue as a good example, they play up free Direct TV, leather seats and legroom, and you know what they have awesome onboard service but have a ton of issues they are struggling with and could put them under. IFE didn't help stop people from being angry on Feb 14th of this year.

    You seem to only talk about businessmen's preferences, as though their preferences matter over that of the general flying public, which, I could be wrong, outnumbers businessmen on flights, no? A LOT of people on planes are once or twice a year flyers. Take our nation's population of "once or twice a yearers" and before you know it...a plane is full.
    Phil you seem to totally glance over the fact that who contributes the more profitable sales to the airline? Itís the business traveler so if you owned a business who would you cater to? The customer who's pays top dollar for you're product week after week or the customer who looks for the rock bottom fare once a year? Yes you want the tourist class passenger but you dam well better make sure you keep you're bread and butter happy. Most changes and upgrades are based off of what the most frequent travelers desire. That's Marketing 101.

    You are the one that started your next reply by telling me that I didn't know the needs and wants of the public. I didn't even know we were debating anything!
    You don't Phil, I'm sorry but based off you're overhead bin statement, you just don't.

    All I'm saying is that IFE is enjoyed by many. You seemed to try to be upset because someone had a good time on Delta due to IFE and a few good drinks.
    Phil you're really trying to throw words in my mouth. I made statement that Delta's onboard IFE and service is simple window dressing to a number of underlying problems. NOWHERE did I say I don't like IFE, but you totally missed my point that IFE is not Delta's answer to its problems, you made a comment that originally that makes my statement about Delta seem stupid so I think I have the right to come back and address it.

    No, you're not. Voicing your opinion would include a lot of "I prefer this," and "I've not enjoyed that," and not any "harsh" comments you "you this" or that. You're posts aggressively discredit others' opinions because you have 160k revenue miles and we don't. Sharing your own opinion does not include debating other people's. Big difference.
    Ah...debate is based on opinion and fact Phil. Chris's opinion is based on company pride, mine is based on real world experience. You know I believe my experience does make my opinion hold more water. As I said you donít have to agree, but if you went to get a car fixed whom would you listen to? The guy who just started at Jiffy Lube or a seasoned mechanic? btw Chris sorry for using you as a tennis ball.

    He's usually not so courageous when I have two working hands though.
    had to throw this in...summer 2006, Beach, who's face in the sand....hmmm you're wrap comes off when? ;)

  8. #23
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    ...who contributes the more profitable sales to the airline?
    Again, you're talking about business stats, I'm talking about passenger preference.

    You don't Phil, I'm sorry but based off you're overhead bin statement, you just don't.
    No one's debating who knows what. We were talking preference. No one was debating preference. You are telling us that our preferences are wrong.

    Ah...debate is based on opinion and fact Phil.
    The debate that didn't exist until you started telling people that what they enjoy is wrong? There wasn't a debate to begin with.

    Still, I'm stating opinions. You're debating them. You don't see how that's backwards?
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  9. #24
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Again, you're talking about business stats, I'm talking about passenger preference.
    Phil you're serious right? An airline is a business there to make a profit... Passengers are stats Phil, some pay more some pay less, the ones who pay more add more to the bottom line.

    The debate that didn't exist until you started telling people that what they enjoy is wrong? There wasn't a debate to begin with.

    Still, I'm stating opinions. You're debating them. You don't see how that's backwards?
    Ah no I stated an opinion that you made a comment on that downplayed my opinion? I didn't say you have to share my opinion but we must share yours? I don't agree with you're opinion am I not allowed to question your opinion?

  10. #25
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Yes, that's right. People shouldn't question people's opinions like that. No one asked for a debate on your opinion. At least against my preference. I can only speak for myself.

    Phil: "I like IFE."
    Tommy: "What do you know?!?! You're wrong!!!"

    That's what happened here.
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  11. #26
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil D.
    Yes, that's right. People shouldn't question people's opinions like that. No one asked for a debate on your opinion. At least against my preference. I can only speak for myself.

    Phil: "I like IFE."
    Tommy: "What do you know?!?! You're wrong!!!"

    That's what happened here.
    That's you're perception. I first stated Delta's IFE is window dressing to larger problems. I perceived you're statement as a blanket statement that IFE is a cure all which I responded to with facts and experience much like you are perceiving my opinions in you're own way.

  12. #27
    Administrator PhilDernerJr's Avatar
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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    That's you're perception.
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    I perceived you're statement as a blanket statement that IFE is a cure all which I responded to with facts and experience much like you are perceiving my opinions in you're own way.
    So I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil D.
    .... if "window dressing" is honest pilots, tv/video game IFE, and good snacks with drinks is just "window dressing" then I sure love window dressing.
    Looks like I just said I like what you call window dressing.

    As far as me thinking you attacked someone's opinion out of nowhere:

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    That's you're perception.
    yet....

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bird76
    To be a bit harsh...Ryan, Chris and Phil not one of you travel enough as revenue passenger to be in touch with the needs and wants of frequent flyers....
    Looks like an attack to me. Is there really any other perception of that?
    Email me anytime at [email protected].

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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    PM'd

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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    TWA sucked, too. :-)

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    Re: Trip Report: JFK-LAS-JFK on Delta

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyNavy
    TWA sucked, too. :-)
    Didn't I tell you to go play in you're sim! LOL Well I don't have blinders TWA didn't run their airline perfectly either. TWA's problems back to the 80s and were similar to what Delta is having now. TWA had an old fleet and Ichan didn't help TWA at all, he took the airline private and sucked over 400 mil in public funds from TWA, basically speaking TWA was starved of capital. The airline did make a turn around in the 90s but really was to late, the Kabu agreement sealed TWA's fate and the down turn in the economy right before 9/11 just forced TWA to sell to AA. Even if TWA was able to keep afloat 9/11 would have sunk them. Interestingly enough if TWA was able to make it to 2003 they would have been home free of many old debts and would have had the most modern fleet of any U.S airline today. There was even talk of TWA/FL or TWA/HP getting together, while the TWA/FL thing never came to pass TWA and HP did create a codeshare on all noncompeting routes.

    Oh a little known fact in 1948 TWA personnel flew Delta planes from Cincinnati to Detroit; Delta crews fly TWA ships south to Atlanta, Miami and Dallas. So our two airlines have a bit of history together.

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