U.S. Relaxes Air Travel Restrictions

[emshighway]

Patrick Smith (author of the book "Ask the Pilot" and the Salon.com column of the same name) had this to say about the security measures in the first place:

So what happens to this stuff? Does the bomb squad come in every evening and cart it away in steel casks? Don't be ridiculous. It's hurled into the trash. The line of reasoning goes like this: We already know these items are harmless, but we're going to take them anyway. Later, after you leave, we will dump them down the drain.

I think he makes a very good point: if the items could be explosive, why aren't they handled more carefully, and if they're generally not going to be explosive, why ban them in the first place?

Well since you can't read the whole article it is hard to answer. How about you try again.

[mirrodie]

If you want to play the "let's beat up on the TSA guy" it is easy to get in touch with. Try it face to face.

in touch with.....who? Anyway, I just went to the start of the thread and perused it. We were discussing the organization's pitfalls when you seem to have personalized this and made it seem as if its 'them against the TSA guy', capping it off with what can be miscontrued as perhaps a machismo sophomoric response of 'try it face to face.'

Now, let me be the first to say that I called the TSA 'tools'. Not you, the TSA. That struck a nerve with you. Fine. I then retracted that statement and fully explained WHY I said that. Now perhaps you can explain why we are wrong.

Since perhaps you seem to think we are wrong and do not know anything that we are talking about, having drawn only on our experiences, then may I suggest that you educate us and show us how we are wrong.

I challenge you to try and actually discuss the points raised, rather than tack tangential potshots at random posters here. And 'not being able to answer everything' is a cop out.

So may I suggest the following... T-bird, in his 3rd post in this thread, delineated many bulleted points. Why don't you use that one post as a template, reference point or basis for discussion.

[emshighway]

I'm sure those reports are all nice and all but you guys don't get it. Explain the following to me and still tell me you get it.

Of course you are an expert and get everything?

I can see you took a trip to Flyertalk.com to gather some argue points since it is obvious you didn't think of these yourself.

[quote:dc7b6]Tell me about the vetting process for ground workers or lack there of?

There actually is a process starting soon. We don't like the current situation.

The airport is responsible for running a background for those with SIDA access. There will be random screening of employees at access doors.

The office of the TSA Administrator has been a revolving door - four Administrators in four years.

Would you want the job? It is an extremely hard job where congress tells you what you can do then bashes you when you do it.

The GAO last spring demonstrated how bad airport screening is, with the TSA failing 21 of 21 tests.

Did you read the whole report? I would bet not. Having a battery, watch and some wire can make a bomb but having them in a bag doesn't make it a bomb.

The Federal Security Director at Newark, as I noted in a past editorial, has no security experience, and whose career high point, according to the TSA's own website, was being the PR man for the Beach Boys. Flight 93 ring a bell?

At Newark you need a PR man. A good manager surrounds himself with experienced personnel. Hopefully he will do what needs to be done.

Why for a period of time, one of the highest ranking officials in TSA Maritime security was Norman Mineta's former press secretary?

It is called cronyism. Have you looked at the Bush administration? :roll:

When you are told to get a brand new agency up and running in months you grab who you think can do a job.

Why at Washington Dulles, "dozens" of illegal aliens were discovered working in secure areas?

Were they employed by the TSA? It is the airports responsibility to run the backgrounds. How do you think they were found?

-Why at EWR some homeless people were found on the AOA?

Apparently the Port Authority wasn't doing their jobs. It is the Port Authority's responsibility not the TSA.

-Why has the TSA spent 40,000 dollars on doggy boots?

The was DHS. TSA is only one of 22 departments. None of the dogs at the WTC had boots. They wanted to make sure the dogs had boots.

"...Christopher Cadorna, 25, and Benny Arcano, 27, agreed to cooperate with the government's investigation after admitting they belonged to a group of TSA screeners who stole at least $20,000 from international travelers, prosecutors said..."

How many crooked cops, priest, school officials are there? It happens, we go after these idiots and want them busted as much as anyone else.

There has always been a problem with items "disappearing" from baggage. This has been going on well before the TSA. Simple answer, it shouldn't happen.

-Why did El Al say no way will they let the TSA screen for their flights?

That's not exactly true. try research instead of just copying and pasting.

El Al wanted to screen their own bags, they use TSA equipment. True the settings are stricter than ours but it's their planes.

-Why have puffer machines at airports and not use them, oh that's right they've been found to be pieces of crap and don't work half the time.

TSA doesn't build the puffers. There are a very few companies who do so there are slim pickings. Congress wants them out at the checkpoints, the lab advises they are not the best they can be, this is ignored by congress and they go out. TSA pushed for the stop on new deployments until such time as the companies can show they will perform according to TSA specs. Also it isn't that they don't work. The problem is the analyize times. Right now they take too long and they slow the checkpoint down. Read the articles for the correct information.

-I've flown 20,000 miles in the last 90 days, how come not one of the airports I've flown through were checking bags at the gate for liquids like you guys say you might about a millions times over the airport PA? Its BS I saw plenty of people bring water on planes. Not once, large airport or small were their gate checks. Please don't say it’s random and I must have missed it, 20,000 miles in 90 days I would have seen it at least once.

AM I SUPPOSE TO BE IMPRESSED? It is simple, there is enough staff. What is more important, getting you the checkpoint or prevent you from taking water you bought at the airport on the clean side of the checkpoint. I can guarentee it is being done. Not a 100% as Washington first wanted but on a random bases as the FSDs recommended as not to bring the system to a halt.

Shall I go on? Btw thank you Mr. Mike Boyd for reporting a number of the above. I know you work for the TSA and I don't blame most of the frontline guys especially in your position but your leaders are inept and haven't had a clue for a long time. As for those reports, you know what NO I don't want it more restrictive! This isn't a police state, the American people understand there are certain risks when it comes to terrorism and we live with it.

Boy I heard patriotic music behind that part.

If the TSA becomes more restrictive we won't have to worry about terrorism in the sky because all the airlines will be out of business because no one will fly. If you think that is out of the question then you guys really don't have a clue. The airlines are expecting a 30% drop in business travel because of the restrictions on liquids. Tell me why a female going to Chicago for a day wants to check her purse because the liquids she's carrying can't be taken aboard anymore? Those are generally the highest yielding customers for the airlines.

Really, I've seen articles and FAA reports that passengers loads are up. There was one a little while ago saying the three NYC area airports had the most they ever had.

I have been to Chicago, why would anyone want to go there? :P

As for the liquids you guys knew it was a threat before the London plot was uncovered. Why didn't we ban liquids before that? That has perplexed me still to this day. The material these guys used had such a distinct smell current technology out there could have picked it up, but we don't have it in place.

Simple answer, $$$ and Congress, Congress, Congress. There also has to be adjustments on the present risk. It is a moving target. While we would like to be more proactive, I guess they are stuck in the reactive mode.

I'm not directing this at you personally but at the TSA. You can't pull the wool over someone's eyes that travel as much as I do. I see it every time I fly. I wish I could capture the TSA agents at LGA; they are the most unprofessional bunch I have ever seen, not a clue!. I made the mistake once of handing a TSA agent my connecting boarding pass, nothing, they said nothing, just handed it back to me and off I went. I pointed it out to a Supervisor and they didn't care, the said they just look at my name. What BS!!!! At that point you don't have to show them your id so what's the point of looking at my name. Next time I'll just grab an old boarding pass and stroll on through... Lets get real here the TSA has done nothing to increase security at our airports, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it’s a federal job program.

They are looking to see if the boarding pass has the selectee mark. The airline contracted ticket checkers are responsible for checking the boarding passes. This may change. It is politics with the airlines. This proves that you are going on uneducated observation for your arguements.

There are a lot of behind the scene programs that definetly make a difference. Making a remark that TSA hasn't increased the security is just a jab that you can't prove.

Maybe you guys should start listening to passengers like me instead of just coming out and saying “we get it”

[/quote:dc7b6]

Am I suppose to be kneeling to you now?? I am tired of the entitled passenger who thinks they are all knowing. You feel that the doors should open wide, the music sound and rose pedals dropped at your feet. Say hello to all your fellow basher friendsfor me at flyertalk.com :roll:

[emshighway]

Doing the ISP-MDW shuffle today, first day of the new rules. I won't go into details, (don't want to tip off any terrorists reading NYCA) but let me say the procedures at both airports were inconsistant, and wouldn't stop me from carrying illegal liquids on board.

Don't you think inconsistency is a good thing? If you don't know what is going to be checked you can't prepare for it.

Not saying total inconsistency is right. It is hard to have around 450 airports to run exactly the same and 45,000 people act exactly the same.

[Mateo]

Of course it makes sense to hire a PR guy as the supervisor at Newark. The TSA is all about giving the appearance of security while not actually doing anything, not to mention wasting billions and billions of dollars annually.

[emshighway]

[quote:837ba]You couldn't figure out you could take a camera bag on board and you call us tools.

As I allow my glass of merlot's bouquet to manifest itself...

emshighway, I am sorry you think that couldn't figure it out. I just couldn't be bothered to sift through the inconsistently followed website your establishment has and would rather ask friends who have flown recently of their real experiences. Between my friends' experiences and comments read on flyertalk.com, I have realistic expectations. I may be a fully fledged Craftsman with miles to learn and only a few meager years of education under my decreasing beltline, but I'd think twice before posting if I were you.

Should I take this as a threat? Bring it. I am conveying my views from another side and trying to convey information. I'm sure you would rather have be be silent so you can spread your rhetoric without response. I knew you had to be one of those flyertalers, the same old rhetoric is easy to spot.

T-bird already gave a play by play so I wont go into that. In fact, emshighway, since you feel so strongly, I think you have a lot of points to address and I look forward to your retort.

I try to convey some of the information (whether I agree or not with it). I do not appreciate the childish comments like "they are tools" when I bust my butt to make the experience better and the throughput quicker for the passengers (ask Phil).

But I will comment on El Al. They are THE gold standard in security. They are YOUR example to follow. You are welcome to read my copy of a book on El Al by Mike Machat. Has some really exquisite drawings in it.

You are right, but they didn't do it overnight and I'm sure they didn't have to deal with the likes of the US Congress. Their regulations are stricter than ours. Do you really want them?

But if you can emulate what El Al has done, then great. My tax dollars have been well spent. If nothing else ever came of this discussion, let it be that I employ you, as a representative of the TSA, to use our tax dollars righteously.

I pay taxes also or did you forget that? I too want the best for my money. The government wants to contract everything out (IT, HR, Payroll, ETC), talk about waste of money.


Let me draw on our own personal experiences:

JFK-SYD- I asked the agent to hand check my 12 rolls of film since I was flying on 10 segments over the next few weeks. She refused to, saying the film speed wasnt a problem. Then I showed her a printout of your own treasured webpage and said that I could ask to have it hand checked and not put through the machine. Boy was she pissed that she had to do her job.

Was it 800 or over? She might have been right.

Take a name and complain.

MIA-JFK-, Your TSA crew were busy making comments about my wife and I in Creole language as they screened us through. They were talking nonsense about a pair of green Doc Martens that I wore and paying more attention to that rather than screening. Weren't they surprised when I called them on it, as I am fluent in French and Creole. IF I recall correctly, I spoke to the supervisor ans asked, politely, "what do my green Doc Martens have to do with anything?" Very professional. :roll:

Take names and complain, it is your right.

So they made a little joke, stop the presses and fire everyone. Jokes in this situation could be a stress release. After hours of people taking out the frustrations on you, yelling, spitting and even assaulting you a little joke could have been a little release.

Cops, fire fighters and paramedics have the sickest sense of humors around. It is a defensive response. Is it always right, no but sometimes it happens.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WEARING GREEN DOCS FOR? :shock:

I probably would have laughed also.

JFK-LHR TSA agent forced wife to take off her open toe shoes....I am wearing RM WILLIAMS boots. No problem, leave them on. Yet the gent in front of us had to remove his cowboy boots. So how much more contraband can a pair of my boots hold compared to her open toe mules?? Why the inconsistency?

Most cowboy boots contain a steel shank which will set the metal detector off. So would you rather have him just remove them knowing they are going to alarm or let him waste your time by going through then ringing and have to stop the line to take them off? This must be old since all shoes come off now. Do I agree with this, no, but since most shoes have shanks having everyone take their shoes off actually speeds up the line.

ISP-PVD-, the good TSA folks at ISP (emshighway, you can take credit for them) found that I had a corkscrew opener in my bag and asked I leave it. Of course I obliged. I mean seriously it was the day of my engagement and I was not thinking straight for obvious reasons.

Congrats

But 8 hours later, at PVD, I bought a corkscrew, I proposed, forgot about it and simply boarded with it back in PVD. I didnt even realize it til I got home. Talk about inconsistent and scary! We are talking about the same ITEM in the SAME DAY!!! RIGHT hours later.
And yes, Newsday did print my editorial about that incident.

Corkscrews are not prohibited. Don't know when this happen but is it possible there was a small knife on the first for removing the wrapper? Just speculating.

Maybe I was wrong to use that word.

And emshighway, notice how others posting here are echoing the same sentiment. Most are talking about inconsistency.

There are good and bad to inconsistency. Not everything is predictable. As I stated before having over 450 areas with 45000 people doing exactly the same thing is rough. Should it be tighter, yes.

So, in retrospect, I apologize for calling the TSA 'tools'. That was a sophomoric choice of words on my part.

I apologize for jumping on you about it but when you spend months busting your butt trying to make your life easier and get you through the checkpoints faster than come home and crank the website up and get called a tool (I know, not personally, but at my kind) I get a little pissed.

Instead, based on our collective experiences, the TSA is an organization that was hired to give us the illusion of protecting us without actually doing so. Some of its employees will

Not just the illusion but that is part of it.

a) refuse to carry out duties as delineated on its uber-informative website,

I don't like the website either. Website is not the SOP and sometimes isn't updated as quick as it should be.

They should be reported and disciplined if they don't follow the SOP.

b) make fun of travelers to pass the time instead of screen passengers and

They should be drawn and quartered!!! Already answered this.

c) will not apply consistent procedures, as noted within an 8 hour window of reference.

Again, getting 450 area and 45000 people to do the exact same thing is rough but should be tighter.

But since I couldn't find a single word to explain all that, all I could think of was "tools". I am very sorry.

We are tools of what congress wants us to do. We are punching bags for persons who don't like being inconvenienced.

I really don't expect a reasonable reply, since none of this is in your hands. But when you wonder why people are infuriated with the TSA, I am just another man (in a tiny country of how many million?) drawing on my own experiences.

[/quote:837ba]

I tried to give reasonable replies but had to throw some jabs. Admit there is some bias and frustration in your perception of the TSA.

Look at other government worker... DMV!!!! Are they really any different? Are they the best? Maybe not but remember the old saying "you get what you pay for" :shock:

There are some of us who are trying to do the right thing. There are problems and hopefully they work themselves out.

I actually didn't come on NYCA to fight, I actually am trying to help make spotting easier by bringing people together and getting the word out.

[emshighway]

Nick the problem with the TSA isn't just a few bad apples or a few lapses here are there, its a widespread problem, go read my bullet points again and tell me that is not indicative of a organization with some pretty big problems. Phil you mention they implemented an airtight security system, where, which airport? Swiss cheese has fewer holes in it then our airport and port security. It a few years ago a teenager took a box cutter on board to show how easy it was to get it past the screeners. Why was the GAO able to get items past security 21 times? Answer me that?

Repeating yourselves. Security of the airport is actually the airport's responsibility. The TSA inspects for adherence of Federal Regulations.

Yes, a few years ago. How old is the TSA? Nothing is done overnight (yes, in the scheme of the government a few years is overnight)

[quote:f1627]Phil they've done a good job with the liquid ban turning away 30% of business travelers. Go read AA's statement on the revenue they lost because of this ban.

Checked baggage is up 35%. Isn't it easier for AA to say it is TSA's fault then their bad management.

I'm sorry but stop sitting here defending this organization, you’re defending an organization that spent 40,000 on doggy boots

Again, that was DHS and the dogs really needed them.

, and you guys think that is acceptable? I don't. I'm not sitting here bashing them without hard fact, the facts I stated above are serious infractions that have taken place and demand a reasonable and prompt fix.

And your fix would be?

As for being a thankless job, give me a break Nick, I had to but on my hip waders on for that one. No one forced these people to do this job; they get paid like you or me. If they don't like their job they can go find another one.

[/quote:f1627]

I knew this was going to be here somewhere. Have you read anything of the job market. For some they are forced to do the job. But they can quit and you can pay for their welfare checks.

[emshighway]

The TSA has made it very difficult for many business travelers.

Ah, yes we sit around saying "let's get the business traveler" Congress has imposed the measures.

Lastly the airlines care a great deal, do me a favor and go look at the briefs, travel is softening again. This liquid ban cost the airlines tens of millions of dollars.

Travel is naturally softens at this time of year. What a perfect time to use this as a negative fact when it occurs every year. What are you going to say during the holidays when it picks up again?

Hmm, checked baggage is up 35%. Go over the alloted amount or poundage and you pay the airlines. Who is actually making out on the ban? Perhaps, the airlines?

[emshighway]

not entirely true four letters and one word F.F.D.O. program thats the last defense!

I am all for arming all pilots. That coupled with the cockpit doors and good screening solves the problem.

A multi layered system.

[emshighway]

OK, the moderators can now send their PMs and emails on multi-replies. Sorry, there was no way I was going to reply to all this in one post.

Have a good night.

[PhilDernerJr]

Eh, you had a lot to reply to reply to. No biggie here, although I appreciate your concern. :)

[mirrodie]

Firstly, I appreciate the exchange and your efforts to convey your side in a productive way.

I'd like to comment in a few things you said in italics:

So they made a little joke, stop the presses and fire everyone. Jokes in this situation could be a stress release. After hours of people taking out the frustrations on you, yelling, spitting and even assaulting you a little joke could have been a little release.

Believe me, I'll joke til the cows come home. I can't believe some of the things I'll say just to screw around. But if I can't joke and use the word "BOMB" while in the security queue, then there is no justification for these employees joking while on the job and paying less attention to what they are doing.

We should all be serious and attentive to the task at hand, that being security. I would expect that to be a minimum responsibility of every TSA employee. There is a time and place for eveything and I think we can agree on that.


Should I take this as a threat? Bring it. I am conveying my views from another side and trying to convey information. I'm sure you would rather have be be silent so you can spread your rhetoric without response.

Actually, up until I wrote what you responded to here, there was little information being conveyed to us. And the 'threat' that you perceived, followed by a winky smilie dude defuses what you thought was a threat.


Not just the illusion but that is part of it.

I do wholeheartedly appreciate your acknowledgement of this. That comment along with the smoke and mirrors comment does really tell us the state of affairs.

Look at other government worker... DMV!!!!


THANK G-D for online DMV transactions!!!

Again, much appreciated.

[emshighway]

Firstly, I appreciate the exchange and your efforts to convey your side in a productive way.

I'd like to comment in a few things you said in italics:

I'll try to answer them

[quote:0b012]So they made a little joke, stop the presses and fire everyone. Jokes in this situation could be a stress release. After hours of people taking out the frustrations on you, yelling, spitting and even assaulting you a little joke could have been a little release.

Believe me, I'll joke til the cows come home. I can't believe some of the things I'll say just to screw around. But if I can't joke and use the word "BOMB" while in the security queue, then there is no justification for these employees joking while on the job and paying less attention to what they are doing.

I know, my opinion is this is a little too much. You get the little old lady making the comment that there isn't a bomb in her bag and before you know it she is surrounded by a dozen big airport cops. There are times when there needs to be common sense.

We should all be serious and attentive to the task at hand, that being security. I would expect that to be a minimum responsibility of every TSA employee. There is a time and place for everything and I think we can agree on that.

Yes, maybe they went too far but you are not going to get robots. There is a human factor and I don't think two screeners making a comment to each other lessens their focus. After all they spotted those green docs didn't they?

In the last two paragraphs you commented that they are too strict on the word :shock: bomb :shock: then commented that they are slacking off. There needs to be middle ground. I have seen postings in flyertalk for example that condemn screeners for talking to the almighty passenger and in the next post condemn them for not talking. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Should I take this as a threat? Bring it. I am conveying my views from another side and trying to convey information. I'm sure you would rather have be be silent so you can spread your rhetoric without response.

Actually, up until I wrote what you responded to here, there was little information being conveyed to us. And the 'threat' that you perceived, followed by a winky smilie dude defuses what you thought was a threat.

I'll take it as a joke and move on. I have no problem conveying information but it usually comes to fending off insulting comments. If you have read flyertalk for any period of time you will see that persons who work for TSA have been called Nazis, shoe fetishist and much worse. Trying to answer questions just to be personally attacked gets tiring. I will try to answer any question, I'll give you the company line and my opinion but have no problem taking the gloves off. Must be too many years of not backing down in my former life.

Not just the illusion but that is part of it.

I do wholeheartedly appreciate your acknowledgement of this. That comment along with the smoke and mirrors comment does really tell us the state of affairs.

Hey, we shake our heads at stuff that comes out of DC all the time. Is there a level of making the passenger feel safer, sure. This is part of any security system. Do you really think an old man in a security guard uniform at the bank is going to stop a robber? Maybe and maybe it makes the customers and bank tellers feel safer. If the bank guard was a 100% effective there would be no need for cameras.

There are multi layers of security. Some are purposely visible as a comfort and determent and others you will never know about.

Just because I acknowledge a smoke and mirrors aspect doesn't condemn the state of affairs.

Look at other government worker... DMV!!!!


THANK G-D for online DMV transactions!!!

Again, much appreciated.

[/quote:0b012]

Damn right. I remember spending a full day at the Jamaica office (when it was the only one around).

[INTENSS]

Not going to be able to answer everything in one post.

Nothing can be 100% safe. Much is smoke and mirrors. The agency is only five years old while other agencies are hundreds. Resources, funding are low while politics and cronyism is high. There are many, many people who try to do the right thing. We shake out heads at some of the procedures also. Some we can understand based on the background we receive.

If you want to play the "let's beat up on the TSA guy" it is easy to get in touch with. Try it face to face.

You were going well until you hit the enter key and went on a totally different tangent. I was actually defending the TSA from a station to station basis because of the lack of funding and thus proper screening abilities.

-Rich

[emshighway]

Not going to be able to answer everything in one post.

Nothing can be 100% safe. Much is smoke and mirrors. The agency is only five years old while other agencies are hundreds. Resources, funding are low while politics and cronyism is high. There are many, many people who try to do the right thing. We shake out heads at some of the procedures also. Some we can understand based on the background we receive.

If you want to play the "let's beat up on the TSA guy" it is easy to get in touch with. Try it face to face.

You were going well until you hit the enter key and went on a totally different tangent. I was actually defending the TSA from a station to station basis because of the lack of funding and thus proper screening abilities.

-Rich

I was answering multiple postings. The last paragraph wasn't directed to you. Sorry if you thought so.