Security Incident at JFK over T-shirt?

[PhilDernerJr]

His rights were not trampled. Being detained against your will with no charge and not getting your phone call is having your rights being trampled

Your right, but making him change or cover up his shirt was trampling his rights. Clearly.

I think "trampling" is a bit much. Maybe a tiny sacrifice. Maybe. But it's a t-shirt.

This guy made a big deal out of nothing because he wanted more hits on his anti-war website, bottom line.

[Mellyrose]

So freedom of speech stops when you enter an airport?

Not entirely, but yes...to a degree - just like your right to bear arms stops as soon as you enter an airport or any other sensitive area. Certain behavior is just not appropriate for certain scenarios.

Let alone the points I've already beat to death about how this guy was obviously desperate to create controversy.

Your points don't show that at all, this guy just wanted to fly home, not create anything.

Well Nick, you are entitled to your opinion. I wasn't implying that my points proved anything...they're just my opinions - like yours.

I think that if you read a bit more into this, and directly from his website, you'll see that he IS an activist and I find it very hard to believe that a grown adult with half a brain wouldn't realize what they are doing by wearing that shirt to the airport.

[Matt Molnar]

So freedom of speech stops when you enter an airport?

Simply, yes. For example, you can't say "bomb" in an airport. Sure, what his shirt actually said was not threatening. But as every single attack on American civilian aircraft has been perpetrated by men around the same age and communicating in the same language as was on this guy's shirt, the passengers' reaction of fear is totally reasonable. jetBlue is in business to get passengers from point A to point B comfortably, not to make them fly in frightening conditions.

The free speech comparison to photographers is moot. Photographers arouse fear, but the fear is that they are involved in plotting and planning, not that they are imminently launching an attack while standing at the airport with their cameras. The fear aroused by a guy actually on an aircraft about to climb 8 miles into the air is much more serious, as people begin questioning whether they are going to die, what it's going to feel like to get blown up, how their families are going to cope without them, and whether or not they did enough with their lives. Not pleasant stuff to think about for even a minute, nevermind a five hour flight.

[NIKV69]

But as every single attack on American civilian aircraft has been perpetrated by men around the same age and communicating in the same language as was on this guy's shirt

Wow, you could profile just a bit more? Very scary to see we are bahaving in this manner.

The free speech comparison to photographers is moot. Photographers arouse fear, but the fear is that they are involved in plotting and planning, not that they are imminently launching an attack while standing at the airport with their cameras

Where do you get your information? Do you poll every person that gets nervous or feels threatened when they see us at the airport? You guys really have to stop trying to make these generalaztions fact, because they are far from it. Just because you perceive a certain situation as dangerous or threatening doesn't make it so, and it just goes a long way to prove that the terrorists are winning by instilling fear in our minds when see someone doing something perfectly within their rights at an airport. To have a knee jerk reaction every time we see someone of middle eastern descent that appears to be doing something suspicious is really sad. If you have this suspicion by all means screen them twice but once you find they are not a threat or have no weapons let them go on their way. We have a FedEx pilot who is a member here and I tell him this stuff with our encounters with PA and such and he gets sick.he likens it to Nazi Germany where we will all have to show our papers in public when someone in law enforcement feels it necessary or thinks we look suspicious. It's lunacy.

[Mellyrose]

Nick, it's not inappropriate to "profile" as Gotham did if it's FACTUAL. It's not as if he's being racist or irrational.

Seems as if you're just hiding from the truth if you feel as though all of this is an over-reaction.

It's not a knee-jerk reaction if the TSA or the general public is practicing caution based on recent events.

[Matt Molnar]

Wow, you could profile just a bit more? Very scary to see we are bahaving in this manner.

When white haired grandmas from Topeka start bombing planes then I'll stop profiling.

Where do you get your information? Do you poll every person that gets nervous or feels threatened when they see us at the airport?

I speak from a somewhat intelligent person's point of view. Anyone with common sense will not see a camera as an immediate threat to their lives.

Just because you perceive a certain situation as dangerous or threatening doesn't make it so...

It doesn't make it so, but it does make it uncomfortable. The only way to prevent someone willing to die is to keep an eye out for suspicious characters.

and it just goes a long way to prove that the terrorists are winning by instilling fear in our minds when see someone doing something perfectly within their rights at an airport.

Us being vigilant does not mean they're winning.

To have a knee jerk reaction every time we see someone of middle eastern descent that appears to be doing something suspicious is really sad.

I can think of far worse "knee-jerk" reactions than banning the guy from the plane.

If you have this suspicion by all means screen them twice but once you find they are not a threat or have no weapons let them go on their way.

Airlines can deny people boarding for many reasons. If they thought the comfort of their passengers was an issue, they were within their rights to do so with this guy.

We have a FedEx pilot who is a member here and I tell him this stuff with our encounters with PA and such and he gets sick. he likens it to Nazi Germany where we will all have to show our papers in public when someone in law enforcement feels it necessary or thinks we look suspicious. It's lunacy.

To my knowledge, while some people have been harassed, and even detained, no one has ever been arrested for photographing planes from public property.

[T-Bird76]

His rights were not trampled. Being detained against your will with no charge and not getting your phone call is having your rights being trampled

Your right, but making him change or cover up his shirt was trampling his rights. Clearly.

Nick that couldn't be farther from the truth. It is not a right to fly, it is a privilege and that privilege can be taken away at the discursion of the flight crew. If they felt for whatever reason they didn't want him to fly they can stop him from flying and there's nothing he can do about it. The Capts. decision supersedes his rights, that is the law.

[moose135]

I can think of far worse "knee-jerk" reactions than banning the guy from the plane.

And were does it end? I'm uncomfortable with a young African-American man on board because I was mugged by one once, so he needs to get off the airplane?

Airlines can deny people boarding for many reasons. If they thought the comfort of their passengers was an issue, they were within their rights to do so with this guy.

I think those reasons need to be spelled out in their Contract of Carriage (which, conveniently, isn't available on JetBlue's website) If they deny boarding for some arbritrary reason, they can be in trouble.

[PhilDernerJr]

And were does it end? I'm uncomfortable with a young African-American man on board because I was mugged by one once, so he needs to get off the airplane?

I hear this reference in complaints a lot, as though people are expecting everything to be perfect. Laws are all made in a way so that they can be interpreted for case-by-case situations, and this is no different.

You can't compare a mugging where one person is uncomfortable to terror attacks that have killed thousands, where taunting behavior makes many people uncomfortable and contact the authorities.

[FlyingColors]

I can tell you all this...I'm in no postiton to judge anyone.

Will side with Moose and Nick. Some will praise, most will damn.

But neither side "will see the light" no matter what.

I could continue, however, the decorum will prohibit such.

[Matt Molnar]

And were does it end? I'm uncomfortable with a young African-American man on board because I was mugged by one once, so he needs to get off the airplane?

Not really a valid argument. Many people aboard the airplane, including the crew, were upset by this guy, based on specific historical events. You, on the other hand, are a single person upset due to an event in your personal life.

[moose135]

I think we've just about beaten this to death, there are valid points on both sides of the argument, and as much as I'm not going to change my mind, I don't think I'm going to change anyone else's either.

That said, I'm done with this topic, but I want to say how pleased I've been that we could debate this for almost 2 weeks, and despite all the rhetoric involved, we have remained (for the most part) civil toward one another's views, and haven't resorted to the type of childish behavior you see on some other forums.

Thanks for an interesting debate, folks!

[PhilDernerJr]

Agreed. Always good to have a nice friendly back and forth with my friends. :)

Beers on Nick!!

[FlyingColors]

Good.

Now thats over could you please change that green bouncy thingy Phil!?

[mirrodie]

This thread was almost as crappy as Mario's Moon over Maho picture.
Beers on Nick.

End of discussion.

J